Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find  (Read 1642049 times)

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #630 on: January 21, 2015, 06:28:03 PM »
I'm trying to figure out which one. Kalamazoo airport is also Battle creek International. W.K. Kellogg airport is in Battle creek. kind of a hand toss on which one they are talking about.  :-\

I believe it's Battle creek Michigan vs airports.....think I got it  :D
« Last Edit: January 21, 2015, 06:35:06 PM by shutter »
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #631 on: January 21, 2015, 11:23:52 PM »
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Quote
Robert Ballard (Yale University) and his original team are all retired.

I just looked him up, WOW  :o, he is now 72 years old. my how time fly's by.

NMIwrecks, are people currently still looking for flight 2501? that's another interesting mystery as well that needs closure.

I believe my old group, the Michigan Shipwreck Research Associates (MSRA) is still poking around for it, but the chances of them finding it are very slim.  Looks like we will have to wait for improvements in technology before the 2501 mystery is solved.

Sometimes we forget that when we look for something and don't find it, at least we know where it isn't.

When they say the plane was flying over Battle creek, is that Kalamazoo, or Kellogg?

Battle Creek,  home of Kellogg's Cereal, is about 20 miles east of Kalamazoo.  They think the DC-4 flew over the coast of Lake Michigan somewhere between South Haven and Benton Harbor.  Wreckage was found 40 hours later about 10 miles off South Haven.

Any relation to Tina Bar Money Find ?     ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? 
« Last Edit: January 21, 2015, 11:25:07 PM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #632 on: January 22, 2015, 12:15:40 AM »
Quote
Any relation to Tina Bar Money Find ?

Nope, it got blended into the last response by NMIwrecks. it wasn't an off beat topic brought up. a few questions were asked. If you would like to continue to moderate the forum I could sign you on as an administrator?  ??? ???
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #633 on: January 23, 2015, 04:08:07 PM »
Below is a poor quality official photo of the money taken at the FBI news conference with the Ingrams. The Ingrams brought these specimens in a plastic bag after supposedly separating their '3 bundles' into the segments seen. Each of the segments seen contains stuck-together bills with a total 290 bills in the table.

Note the actual condition of the pieces. Try and reassemble these pieces into the 'bundles' as found by the Ingrams.
According to the Ingrams, the bundles were bound (being held together?) by rubber bands?  Note the scuffs, surface abrasions, wear patterns, deep gouges, ... etc.

Who separated. pressed, and smoothed these stuck-together pieces into individual bills to get a count and finger print the bills?
 
« Last Edit: January 23, 2015, 05:18:12 PM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #634 on: January 24, 2015, 08:41:46 PM »
I've been asking these questions for a while now. if the bills are clearly stuck together then there shouldn't be any reason the whole thing wasn't stuck together at one point. if Cooper tied the bundle tight those bills would compress together over time?

Somewhere along the line the bag was disrupted. the bills don't look exactly deteriorated vs something disrupting them. I wonder why they didn't look more in the opposite direction on the beach? as in the other side of the spoil?
« Last Edit: January 24, 2015, 09:23:48 PM by shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #635 on: January 24, 2015, 09:13:17 PM »
My main computer finally went down. I didn't back anything up on it  >:( the hard drive went poof. hopefully I can repair it and get the data off of the drive. tons of Cooper stuff on it.  :'( :'(
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #636 on: January 25, 2015, 12:32:21 AM »
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I've been asking these questions for a while now. if the bills are clearly stuck together then there shouldn't be any reason the whole thing wasn't stuck together at one point. if Cooper tied the bundle tight those bills would compress together over time?

Somewhere along the line the bag was disrupted. the bills don't look exactly deteriorated vs something disrupting them. I wonder why they didn't look more in the opposite direction on the beach? as in the other side of the spoil?

The 'muck' (sediment) in river water (for lack of a better term - please forgive) would act as a glue of a kind, but don't forget the Ingram money was wet-to-soggy. Does that mean it was still stuck together when wet? I don't know.

We get several accounts on this matter: one from the Ingrams, and another from what they turned in. The Ingrams have left the impression they spent considerable time trying to separate the money, at least Pat Ingram did? Except the actual groups of bills they turned in shows almost no separation. But the story does not end there! Several days after the Ingrams turned in their money Denise Ingram revealed to 'H' in a phone call that the Ingrams were still holding back several bills, as souvenirs. Denise then delivered to 'H', 2-4 more individual bills the Ingrams (probably Pat Ingram) had managed to separate.   

Maybe the amount of 'adhesion between bills' is itself some kind of clock of how long bills have been pressed one against the other in a natural environment of river water? In addition, there are coatings and emulsifiers added to US currency paper which when wet might form an adhesion between paper bills?

Let me make one more post on this matter, and hopefully its explains some of the issues better than what I posted before.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #637 on: January 25, 2015, 12:39:00 AM »
They were obviously well stuck together. remember he took the bills to PCGS who found more serial numbers. makes you wonder how well the FBI really looked at them?
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #638 on: January 25, 2015, 12:40:34 AM »
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They were obviously well stuck together. remember he took the bills to PCGS who found more serial numbers. makes you wonder how well the FBI really looked at them?

Yes... thats a fact.

Let me post an alternate theory on questions some people have, regarding the Ingram money. 

Below is an official news conference photo of the Ingrams presenting their find and a CORBIS photo of the money groups the Ingrams were turning in, on the table. This is a true depiction of what the Ingrams supposedly found and turned in. The Ingrams say what they found was a single block of "wet" money and when they pulled the money out from the sand it came out in two pieces; as opposed to the twelve groups they turned in (shown on the table). They further say ‘that the money was divided into three bundles held together by rubber bands’! And when they got back to the apartment they separated the money into groups and tried to clean and dry it (on the kitchen table). One news report the Ingrams gave has Pat Ingram trying to wash some of the money in the kitchen sink .. and using a little Clorox “to brighten the money up”! The intent of their actions was to have something usable to turn in to a bank, for redemption. In the following two to seven days things change and they wind up in a news conference with the FBI and Himmelsbach, and they push for a reward for Brian, while Crystal Ingram pushes for a reward for her daughter Denise who Crystal claims found the money and calls a radio station to gain support!

At length, the Ingrams sue to get a reward, using the attorney Richard Tosaw.

There is no photo of the Ingrams rejoining the groups shown on the table, as a demonstration of the original block of money they supposedly found. Likewise, there is no photo of the ‘three bundles held together by rubber bands’, formed from the groups shown on the table. The Ingrams say the rubber bands turned to dust on touching … Pat Ingrams reported she picked off pieces of stuck (crystalised) rubber bands from some of the bills. I can’t see any rubber band fragments stuck on bills in these photos? We have no clear demarcation from among these groups on the table of which groups belonged to any ‘bundle’. And apparently Mr. Himmelsbach never thought to ask these questions or give a demonstration, to the reporters present? Later we are told the amount found was $5800; Carr says each bundles varied from $500 to $1000 each, according to the bank official who banded the bundles.

There is an apparent wide difference in condition among the 12 groups shown on the table.  There is enough difference in condition one wonders how these groups ever composed one single block, as found? In addition, no known ‘rubber band fragment’ survived to be identified and shown so it could be tested– anywhere including at the FBI presentation, or later, we are told! All of the band fragments Pat picked off bills .... vanished.

The idea that a child would be told to sweep out a place for a campfire and would “feel” something below the surface which turned out to be ‘three bundles of Cooper money’, seems tantamount to winning the lottery, to me.  It is a remarkable story, in an adventure already full of remarkable accounts and supposed factoids. Presumably, if we had been first on the scene as the Ingrams were leaving Tina Bar, what we would have found would be a single hole from which Brian and his father extricated the found money, as opposed to a wide swath of sand that had been disturbed and dug producing the twelve groups of money shown on the FBI table.  Two FBI agents who were first on the scene and canvassed the area of the Ingram find say what they found was a clearly visible fragment field leading right up to the area of the Ingram find. They never saw or found a single hole that someone had dug. They drove a stake where Brian and Harold indicated they had found the money but never saw a clearly defined "hole".

After the Ingrams turned in their money, technicians at the FBI separated these groups turned in by the Ingrams, flattened and pressed single bills, and finger printed some of the bills using a silver nitrate (spray) solution (which now accounts for the blackened bills). Some of the fragments and bills could not be easily separated from all of their component pieces so were left ‘as is’ (right up to the present), and some fragments stuck to bills waited to be separated years later by the auction company examiner, when Brian Ingram put his bills up to auction. The estimated count of $5800 in assumed individual bills has not changed since 1980.

No ‘clock’ has ever been set using strict forensic methods keying on the deterioration present in these bills, except a cursory attempt made by Tom Kaye that perhaps 1/8th inch edge loss around the periphery of the bills may represent one year’s worth of loss due to decay.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2015, 01:16:51 AM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #639 on: January 25, 2015, 12:57:33 AM »
From the photo's looking at the dig from a chopper (I presume) it appears they focused on three area's. why? they are not really even that close. something must of been found to cause this. Bruce claims an agent found pieces by the shoreline. evidence shows that in the photo. I'm wondering how much they are holding back on this? they did the same with the Alcatraz escape. they buried important evidence in the State archives. it took the Marshals office 3 years to get the files, and the good stuff wasn't in those.
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #640 on: January 25, 2015, 01:22:15 AM »
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From the photo's looking at the dig from a chopper (I presume) it appears they focused on three area's. why? they are not really even that close. something must of been found to cause this. Bruce claims an agent found pieces by the shoreline. evidence shows that in the photo. I'm wondering how much they are holding back on this? they did the same with the Alcatraz escape. they buried important evidence in the State archives. it took the Marshals office 3 years to get the files, and the good stuff wasn't in those.

I have no idea, Shutter. What I do know is some agents question the Ingram's account of where and how they found the money. I don't think there is any question Cooper money was found at Tina Bar, by the Ingrams.  And the discovery was an apparent surprise ... for all concerned.

Our mandate was to look for anything that would shed light on the route the money took to get to Tina Bar, or anything that would shed light on the money's history after it left the plane and landed back on Earth.

 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #641 on: January 25, 2015, 01:32:39 AM »
It still gives the aggravating thought. the plane crossed upstream from where the money ended up. if we can't pinpoint the location of the money before exit. it's hard to come to any conclusions. were putting the horse before the cart thingy.
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #642 on: January 25, 2015, 03:23:41 PM »
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It still gives the aggravating thought. the plane crossed upstream from where the money ended up. if we can't pinpoint the location of the money before exit. it's hard to come to any conclusions. were putting the horse before the cart thingy.

The premise in forensic science is, every 'thing' carries the traits of it's own history. The flight path would be nice to have and some insist we have it, but the real challenge is to know the money's history from its own internal traits. It's a basic issue in how to conduct science at this level. We can predict what traits the money should have if x, y, or z happened (happens); it another thing to actually find those traits 'in the money'. Only then are we sure of a causative connection vs. correlation. It's something we insist on under the "rules of science".

Connections are not always intuitive. For example, if the Cooper money had been found on Tina Bar on Dec 15th 1971 just after the hijacking and it clearly showed the evidence of a 'malt and a burger' in it, then we might conclude the money being on Tina Bar had nothing to do with the flight path per se! Likewise if we did isotope tests and the money showed evidence of 'never having been buried and removed from exposure to the atmosphere', and the serial numbers of the found bills are still on the FBI list, then the whole story of Cooper being given packed bundles of money is suspect! We would be justified in suspecting that some kind of conspiracy was involved! Or at the very least the 'Cooper story' given had flaws in it.

Science has to be neutral to work.
   
« Last Edit: January 25, 2015, 03:25:46 PM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #643 on: January 25, 2015, 03:32:01 PM »
Everyone constantly states "100 bundles of $2,000" while Carr stated they were different bundle amounts so they would appear to be quickly put together. obviously we have more than a hundred bundles from get go if Carr is correct.
 

Offline andrade1812

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #644 on: January 25, 2015, 05:14:08 PM »
There's one thing that lends credence to some of the Ingram testimony, the presence of rubber band remnants. The Ingrams would have had no idea that the money was bundled with rubber bands (instead of bank paper). So them saying there were fragments on the bills (unless Big H prompted them on this) suggests at least parts of their story are true.

Something that needs to be done with respect to the money find is more experiments. We have no idea how a bag of money moves underneath the Columbia. We have no idea how long it takes money to fuse in a wet environment. We have no idea how long it takes those microbes to eat holes in the money. We have no idea how long it takes the outer edges of the money to disintegrate like the Tbar money has. Unfortunately, all of these experiments requires a lot of time.