Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find  (Read 1433729 times)

Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #900 on: April 05, 2015, 11:54:10 AM »
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If you calculate for kinetic energy you get a similar result to the above ... now to make this meaningful you need to express this in potential work. Would this be enough energy to split the bag? Unlikely. How would a package of money the size and volume of the cooper money be expected to take the shock? How big a puddle, crater, etc would this make in what material? ...... Lots of questions of this nature follow but its always useful to translate calculations into actual work, so people have some practical reference to what the numbers mean ....

I don't think anyone really has taken any consideration as to what would happen to the bag from such a fall. depending on how he tied it would be a factor, it could of escaped through the weakest point, that would be where he tied the bag shut.

As for a crater? I've never seen a body bore through solid ground. it's very unforgiving. it will break your fall though  :D :D

If Cooper tied off the bag entry well and if the bag was relatively airtight otherwise, then it would probably rupture (or at least open violently) if Cooper landed on top of it as a no-pull.  This would be a hydraulic type event that would open a pathway for at least some of the money to get out of the bag at a later time.
 

Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #901 on: April 05, 2015, 11:58:47 AM »
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The rubber bands weren't holding the money together for all those years, the surrounding sand was.

I'm wondering if they were digging a fire pit you would think once he disturbed the money the bands would of fell off, and not even noticed? kind of leaves the question, "are you sure this is what happened" ? :'( just a though.....
I may be speaking out of school on this, so I'll have to check, but I was under the impression that the bills were stuck (clumped) together and the rubber bands crumbled when touched. 

Once the money was encased in sand, the rubber bands would no longer be needed to hold the bundles together, they could deteriorate and fall apart with no effect on the bundles.

Based on rubber band events in my closet, even after the bands break they will probably still stick to whatever they were wrapped around.  And sometimes the broken bands are stuck so well that they are difficult to remove completely.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #902 on: April 05, 2015, 02:10:36 PM »
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The rubber bands weren't holding the money together for all those years, the surrounding sand was.

I'm wondering if they were digging a fire pit you would think once he disturbed the money the bands would of fell off, and not even noticed? kind of leaves the question, "are you sure this is what happened" ? :'( just a though.....
I may be speaking out of school on this, so I'll have to check, but I was under the impression that the bills were stuck (clumped) together and the rubber bands crumbled when touched. 

Once the money was encased in sand, the rubber bands would no longer be needed to hold the bundles together, they could deteriorate and fall apart with no effect on the bundles.

Based on rubber band events in my closet, even after the bands break they will probably still stick to whatever they were wrapped around.  And sometimes the broken bands are stuck so well that they are difficult to remove completely.

I would guess there is a time frame for that to occur as well. after a certain point the bands will no longer stick to the attached object? I don't know if that is correct on my end?
« Last Edit: April 05, 2015, 02:11:58 PM by shutter »
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #903 on: April 05, 2015, 02:55:05 PM »
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I'm sure Georger knows, I'm wondering where the Ingram's lived at the time?

The version I have is they pulled the find out in pieces, at least two or three pieces, and all of it was wet.

If the money was wet then the sand was wet. You dig a fire pit in wet sand? I guess so.

As to where the Ingrams lived I think I cant divulge that. They lived in an apartment in Vancouver. I doubt the place will ever have a a placard saying: "Beethoven lived here".  It was an upstairs apartment ... with a view.   :D
« Last Edit: April 05, 2015, 02:55:54 PM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #904 on: April 05, 2015, 03:02:06 PM »
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I'm sure Georger knows, I'm wondering where the Ingram's lived at the time?

The version I have is they pulled the find out in pieces, at least two or three pieces, and all of it was wet.

If the money was wet then the sand was wet. You dig a fire pit in wet sand? I guess so.

As to where the Ingrams lived I think I cant divulge that. They lived in an apartment in Vancouver. I doubt the place will ever have a a placard saying: "Beethoven lived here".  It was an upstairs apartment ... with a view.   :D


The reason I asked for the location was to see if they had a reason to be around that area. it appears they did.
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #905 on: April 05, 2015, 03:21:13 PM »
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One of the problems I have is the fact of no evidence of the bands seem to exist? you can't see any indication of them on the 12 stacks. where are the fragments, in Washington?

Shouldn't the top bills show discoloration if they were there the whole time, sort of like a "Tan Line" ?

This is something you definitely need to ask Tom about. I dont have any special information about the bands presumably on that money, either. All I have is what the Ingrams say and what is said in the FBI files. I have never seen a band, a band fragment, a photo of a band on a bill, etc etc etc. I know Tom looked for any sign of a band fragment on his three bills. I dont have evidence of any lab reports about the bands or a band fragment(s).

I presume if there were band fragments or band particles that was mixed in with the groups of money ... all in evidence folders. The folders themselves are encased in plastic evidence bags taped with red evidence tape, (or were originally) is my understanding. When the FBI was forced to turn over and divide bills amongst claimants in the Court settlement, the claimants were not given raw bills but were given bills in evidence folders. Whatever debris that was in each folder with a bill or a piece of a bill went along with each folder ... and there might be rubber band fragments or particles in those folders to this day?

I have never seen a band fragment, so far. I dont know if Tom has or not, and I am in the same boat as everyone else on this matter and I would like to know what Tom's latest thinking is on this subject ...  ???

 

 
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #906 on: April 05, 2015, 03:24:48 PM »
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I'm sure Georger knows, I'm wondering where the Ingram's lived at the time?

The version I have is they pulled the find out in pieces, at least two or three pieces, and all of it was wet.

If the money was wet then the sand was wet. You dig a fire pit in wet sand? I guess so.

As to where the Ingrams lived I think I cant divulge that. They lived in an apartment in Vancouver. I doubt the place will ever have a a placard saying: "Beethoven lived here".  It was an upstairs apartment ... with a view.   :D


The reason I asked for the location was to see if they had a reason to be around that area. it appears they did.

They lived in the area of Markle Ave at Vancouver.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #907 on: April 05, 2015, 03:27:42 PM »
It makes sense that they would be there. that was the point I was getting at. if you told me they lived 100 miles away, I would question the reason for being there. it's not really a camp site so to speak.
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #908 on: April 05, 2015, 03:44:36 PM »
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The rubber bands weren't holding the money together for all those years, the surrounding sand was.

I'm wondering if they were digging a fire pit you would think once he disturbed the money the bands would of fell off, and not even noticed? kind of leaves the question, "are you sure this is what happened" ? :'( just a though.....
I may be speaking out of school on this, so I'll have to check, but I was under the impression that the bills were stuck (clumped) together and the rubber bands crumbled when touched. 

Once the money was encased in sand, the rubber bands would no longer be needed to hold the bundles together, they could deteriorate and fall apart with no effect on the bundles.

Based on rubber band events in my closet, even after the bands break they will probably still stick to whatever they were wrapped around.  And sometimes the broken bands are stuck so well that they are difficult to remove completely.

Good point!  And 'that' is the infamous 'gooey' or 'melt (glass) transition stage' we are all familiar with. It can become a beautiful phenomenon like sap or amber! Wants to stick to and can even encase whatever it comes into contact with, including particles blown by the wind or forced into it! A potential forensic goldmine! Except, the temperature has to be high enough to allow this natural state to evolve. It's just glorious in its potential ramifications. Those bands could have had one helluva a story to tell ... or zip nothing too. That is why I wanted Tom or somebody to see those band fragments! Now, picture those bands turning gooey, if they ever did, on the fibers which comprise the paper of a $20 dollar bill. That 'gooey stuff' sinks down into those fibers. Now we have future crystalised band fragments-segments literally stuck to the money paper itself. Hard to pluck off at some future date when a kid finds that money and mom and Dad try to clean it up for presentation to a bank. "And we had to pick some of those pieces of rubber band off", was the statement Ive heard. And the whole phenomenon is a "clock". 

Now, if it turns out those Cooper bands never went through their natural gooey stage which happens at room temperature that could imply a cool environment for the money especially during the first several years after the hijacking.

Those band fragments may tell a story that is worth knowing.

[edit] I sit here and say things like the above knowing full well this could all be pure speculation and wishful thinking. But, so far as I know nobody has looked at the band fragments to know and until somebody does look at them, we won't know. The bands could also be just one more dead end in a case of dead ends! It is a fact the bundles of money were wrapped with rubber bands, each bundle, by _______________ at the bank. Larry put forth considerable energy nailing that down and documenting it. ....... and as Tom suggests, the bands could be an important element in this case or not so important, as the case may be.



       
« Last Edit: April 05, 2015, 04:00:35 PM by georger »
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #909 on: April 05, 2015, 03:46:23 PM »
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It makes sense that they would be there. that was the point I was getting at. if you told me they lived 100 miles away, I would question the reason for being there. it's not really a camp site so to speak.

Good points.  ;) ;)
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #910 on: April 06, 2015, 02:04:10 PM »
Where are the top bills? they should have a line in them where the rubber bands were on them for the last couple years. shouldn't the bills show evidence of them being on the bills?
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #911 on: April 06, 2015, 02:08:44 PM »
Rubber bands appear to react with coins.....see attachment...

Taken from a coin thread
Acetone would remove any actual pieces of degraded rubber that might be still stuck to the coin, but the tarnish stripe left behind will not come off in acetone. Rubber is chock-full of sulfur, and it's this sulfur that has reacted with the silver to turn it black. Regular "toning" on a coin is caused by a similar reaction with atmospheric sulfur. Tarnish remover or "dip" will get rid of the stripe, but the end result will be a dipped coin.

 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #912 on: April 06, 2015, 03:47:20 PM »
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Where are the top bills? they should have a line in them where the rubber bands were on them for the last couple years. shouldn't the bills show evidence of them being on the bills?

a few photos of stuck bands, band tracks, etc.

I just found out I can load more than one image at a time?
« Last Edit: April 06, 2015, 03:48:43 PM by georger »
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #913 on: April 06, 2015, 03:55:30 PM »
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Rubber bands appear to react with coins.....see attachment...

Taken from a coin thread
Acetone would remove any actual pieces of degraded rubber that might be still stuck to the coin, but the tarnish stripe left behind will not come off in acetone. Rubber is chock-full of sulfur, and it's this sulfur that has reacted with the silver to turn it black. Regular "toning" on a coin is caused by a similar reaction with atmospheric sulfur. Tarnish remover or "dip" will get rid of the stripe, but the end result will be a dipped coin.

anyone who has ever spent time working in a library archive has seen bands in every possible state of condition - I have picked more pieces of old hardened rubber bands off old letters and documents than I cared to mention. The Ingram money was no different. ... if there were old band fragments there and there probably were...

BTW, some things have a memory. Do rubber bands record a record of the conditions they have been through? Is Kenny's sweet face recorded in the bands?  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
« Last Edit: April 06, 2015, 04:07:05 PM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #914 on: April 06, 2015, 04:19:03 PM »
I just received a response from a dredge company. I asked him about the term "wiper bar", and if money could make it through the pump, and if it would shred the money. he answered one part of my question.


Dave,
Fascinating!  DB is still at work.  I think the wiper bar is just referring to a simple grate or bar across the suction end of the dredge to help keep it from sucking up large debris.  It all depends on how close the bars were placed to basically screen the debris out as to whether the money could make it through.  Then it would have to make it through the pump.  Not sure if that is possible or not without more details.  Hope this helps.