Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

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Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find  (Read 1433745 times)

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #870 on: April 03, 2015, 03:40:13 PM »
This is why I would like to hear a different view from a dredge company. a second opinion is always best. I can't prove one way, or the other how the money got there, if it was that easy, we wouldn't have a thread devoted to it?
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #871 on: April 03, 2015, 11:16:04 PM »
NMI, the poll results should be visible now.....
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Offline nmiwrecks

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #872 on: April 04, 2015, 12:18:06 AM »
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NMI, the poll results should be visible now.....
Interesting.  No consensus, that's for sure.
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Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #873 on: April 04, 2015, 12:41:59 AM »
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NMI, the poll results should be visible now.....
Interesting.  No consensus, that's for sure.

For the record and whatever it is worth, Meyer Louie and I spent a day at Tina Bar in July 2013.  We met a fellow named "Jon" who had the keys to the place (or at least the gate), was extremely knowledgeable about that area, and told us that he had been at Tina Bar on practically a daily basis for about the last 50 years.

Jon was convinced that the money had been deposited at Tina Bar by the dredging.  That seems to be the favored theory of the Tina Bar "regulars".  However, that doesn't seem logical to me.
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #874 on: April 04, 2015, 12:55:21 AM »
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NMI, the poll results should be visible now.....
Interesting.  No consensus, that's for sure.

For the record and whatever it is worth, Meyer Louie and I spent a day at Tina Bar in July 2013.  We met a fellow named "Jon" who had the keys to the place (or at least the gate), was extremely knowledgeable about that area, and told us that he had been at Tina Bar on practically a daily basis for about the last 50 years.

Jon was convinced that the money had been deposited at Tina Bar by the dredging.  That seems to be the favored theory of the Tina Bar "regulars".  However, that doesn't seem logical to me.

It makes some sense to me, but only to a certain degree. we have the FBI claiming several things. only small fragments found. then another agent says pieces were found by the shoreline. that's away from the money. Georger has pointed out several times that it's clearly visible on the video screenshots of 3 locations of interest. I agree with that as well. what I'm not certain on is whether the money could have made it through the dredge. I like to see thing clear as the day explained. I want something in writing that says, yes the money wrapped in bundles could pass through the dredge system. now, if we can positively verify that, we still have hurdles. where did the money splash, or come in contact with the shoreline? it certainly didn't get there from Cooper unless he jumped close by, or the jump was off by several miles, and the worse case put him, or the money in the river upstream? I'm doubting he dropped any during his escape. even if he left the area by boat...
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #875 on: April 04, 2015, 12:57:06 AM »
Now, to add to this, I believe Bruce said the agent found the money close to the shoreline on the surface. if so, it couldn't have been there that long?
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Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #876 on: April 04, 2015, 04:10:25 AM »
Correct. The FBI agent, Mike McPheters, gave me the impression that he found bills on the surface of the high-tide line, and also underneath, as if bills had been brought in by old high-tide lines - but then buried under about 6-10 inches of sand. His proverbial "shovel-depth."

He did not explain how that could be, nor did I challenge him or look for an explanation. I was most concerned with just getting his story.  That said, I do not know how valid it is, and at the time I was very aware I was getting a very different story from everyone.

These differences I probed a bit with McPheters by asking him about discoloration of the bills. At that time we were going around and around about blackened bills, silver particles impregnated into the fibers, silver deposits on the bills, and silver compounds left on the bills from fingerprint testing. I asked McPheters if he found discolored bills and he said, "Oh, yeah." When I began to ask for more details he backtracked and said he would have to check his notes and look at pictures from that time.

When I heard that I told him that would not be necessary. I was concerned that I was beginning to get a "canned" story.

So not only did we have variations on where the bills were found, and also variations on the coloration of the bills themselves.
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #877 on: April 04, 2015, 10:44:36 AM »
Quote
Correct. The FBI agent, Mike McPheters, gave me the impression that he found bills on the surface of the high-tide line, and also underneath, as if bills had been brought in by old high-tide lines - but then buried under about 6-10 inches of sand. His proverbial "shovel-depth."

That would suggest the bills that were just introduced to the river? the money sinks, and I don't believe it regains it's buoyancy does it, how did it crawl it's way up from the bottom?
« Last Edit: April 04, 2015, 10:46:18 AM by shutter »
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Offline 73blazer

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #878 on: April 04, 2015, 10:55:15 AM »
I've always been a fan of Safe's theory, that there's no possible way the money could have gotten there thru any natural means. The money was moved. Chards in other places or not, the only known fact from Tina Bar is the three bundles were found in relatively close proximity to each other if not on top of one another. The fact that the rubber bands were still in tact supports that it wasn't there the entire time or even since the dredge, in fact from the Slueths work one could say it wasn't there for more than a year. If it wasn't moved the jump time and flight path would have to be significantly off and one would have to explain how the rubber bands didn't disintegrate completely.
One thing that could have happened, and I don't think I've heard anyone talk about this, what if little Brian's parents found the money elsewhere, and after some period of time, days or longer, decided the money was worthless in it's current form and if they turned it in, they wouldn't get anything for it, perhaps they felt their chances of getting some of the money replaced for usable $$$ was if a kid found it, buried it there and told little Brian to go build a fire there. I know I read a news report of the day where Brian's mom is talking about removing the rubber bands (breaking them off) and trying to separate and wash the money or something. We know they had it for some period of time before they reported it (and I'm NOT saying there's any wrongdoing here on the part of the Ingrams, finding money and deciding what to do with it later is a natural, normal human response).
Does anybody know the Ingrams whereabouts in the days or weeks preceding when they reported it, was that ever investigated? Pure conjecture, for sure, but unexplored conjecture which is rare in Cooperland. The biggest issue with this theory is, what motivation is there on the part of the Ingrams to not report the real find location? The most logical, is the simplest, Tina Bar was an easy location to get at, perhaps returning to the "real" location would have been a PITA, and not knowing they were Cooper bills, who really cares "where" it was found.  Once finding the vast implications of the bills and their origin, changing the story would have meant massive media and public backlash towards the Ingrams.
Just a theory, they are a dime a dozen it seems.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2015, 10:56:40 AM by 73blazer »
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #879 on: April 04, 2015, 11:03:16 AM »
It's frustrating, and can drive you crazy sometimes. people seem to overlook the fact of the plane crossing the river upstream from the money find. the river is close to the area of interest where Cooper jumped. he could of lost the money on the way down, but survived.

The Ingram's story has changed. it's possible they put the money there, but we need a actual reason for changing the location of the find. why cover it up? did they find the whole bag, if so, what good would it have been to them?
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georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #880 on: April 04, 2015, 04:21:35 PM »
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NMI, the poll results should be visible now.....
Interesting.  No consensus, that's for sure.

For the record and whatever it is worth, Meyer Louie and I spent a day at Tina Bar in July 2013.  We met a fellow named "Jon" who had the keys to the place (or at least the gate), was extremely knowledgeable about that area, and told us that he had been at Tina Bar on practically a daily basis for about the last 50 years.

Jon was convinced that the money had been deposited at Tina Bar by the dredging.  That seems to be the favored theory of the Tina Bar "regulars".  However, that doesn't seem logical to me.


Several things: The Bechly reports makes it clear (a) 'a part of the money package could have survived the dredge, and (b) 'part of the money' could have been pumped to the beach along with sediment. And that is almost what you find. A part of several bundles in somewhat shaved-tattered condition, with additional weather from having been buried in nature for a number of years, which finally reaches surface exposure through erosion of the beach ?

I look at those groups of money sitting on the table in the photo at Portland and I ask myself: 'are there signs of physical-mechanical destruction of the money?' That is one question I think should have been explored further with the right people, and it was not explored so far as I know. But aside from natural weathering, does that money show signs of mechanical destruction .... like cut marks and percussion marks from blades, on bones?

There are forensic people who specialise in examinations of this kind. I wanted that group of highly experienced experts to take a look at this money, because I don't think any ordinary examination by lab people at Quantico would have been qualified  (or even did!) such an examination looking specifically for signs of mechanical damage. The FBI was just interested in finger printing and looking at sediment sands. (according to the FBI lab notes Tom and I were given).

If you can confirm mechanical destruction in the money you almost have to link the money at Tina Bar to the dredging in 1974.

One must ask: What types of alteration is apparent on that money? Natural weathering and bio-degeneration? Mechanical destruction or alteration? What stages of band deterioration does an examination of the band fragments show, as that applies to time passage and temperature(s) of the environment the money was in, especially during the first year after 1971?

I also want to see the full lab reports on whatever tests were actually done on this money. There has to be a baseline to work from and without knowing the details of any prior lab analysis, and the results, we are engaged in guessing and lacking direction in what to do next ...

Lastly, Kaye's debate with Palmer over strata, has only confused the issue the way Tom has laid this out! Tom has yet to tell us what layer of strata WAS the money found in! Palmer says the money was found in the "upper active most recent layer" of sand. What layer is Tom saying the money was found in? Anyone know!?

Is Tom saying Palmer had the 'upper active layer' wrong too!? Quite frankly, what in hell is Tom saying?

Is Tom saying the dredging layer was all gone by 1980 and the money was found above that? Or below that layer?  Is Tom saying there was no 'upper active layer'?

What layer was the money found in?
  ;)
« Last Edit: April 04, 2015, 04:22:40 PM by georger »
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georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #881 on: April 04, 2015, 04:29:39 PM »
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NMI, the poll results should be visible now.....
Interesting.  No consensus, that's for sure.

For the record and whatever it is worth, Meyer Louie and I spent a day at Tina Bar in July 2013.  We met a fellow named "Jon" who had the keys to the place (or at least the gate), was extremely knowledgeable about that area, and told us that he had been at Tina Bar on practically a daily basis for about the last 50 years.

Jon was convinced that the money had been deposited at Tina Bar by the dredging.  That seems to be the favored theory of the Tina Bar "regulars".  However, that doesn't seem logical to me.

It makes some sense to me, but only to a certain degree. we have the FBI claiming several things. only small fragments found. then another agent says pieces were found by the shoreline. that's away from the money. Georger has pointed out several times that it's clearly visible on the video screenshots of 3 locations of interest. I agree with that as well. what I'm not certain on is whether the money could have made it through the dredge. I like to see thing clear as the day explained. I want something in writing that says, yes the money wrapped in bundles could pass through the dredge system. now, if we can positively verify that, we still have hurdles. where did the money splash, or come in contact with the shoreline? it certainly didn't get there from Cooper unless he jumped close by, or the jump was off by several miles, and the worse case put him, or the money in the river upstream? I'm doubting he dropped any during his escape. even if he left the area by boat...

I think the Bechly report says the money could have passed through the dredge. I have Bechlys report right in front of me.

If Tom is saying the opposite then I think Tom read the Bechly report wrong.

I agree with Smokin99 on this issue ............... pending some revelation from Tom?

« Last Edit: April 04, 2015, 04:30:48 PM by georger »
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georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #882 on: April 04, 2015, 04:56:46 PM »
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I've always been a fan of Safe's theory, that there's no possible way the money could have gotten there thru any natural means. The money was moved. Chards in other places or not, the only known fact from Tina Bar is the three bundles were found in relatively close proximity to each other if not on top of one another. The fact that the rubber bands were still in tact supports that it wasn't there the entire time or even since the dredge, in fact from the Slueths work one could say it wasn't there for more than a year. If it wasn't moved the jump time and flight path would have to be significantly off and one would have to explain how the rubber bands didn't disintegrate completely.
One thing that could have happened, and I don't think I've heard anyone talk about this, what if little Brian's parents found the money elsewhere, and after some period of time, days or longer, decided the money was worthless in it's current form and if they turned it in, they wouldn't get anything for it, perhaps they felt their chances of getting some of the money replaced for usable $$$ was if a kid found it, buried it there and told little Brian to go build a fire there. I know I read a news report of the day where Brian's mom is talking about removing the rubber bands (breaking them off) and trying to separate and wash the money or something. We know they had it for some period of time before they reported it (and I'm NOT saying there's any wrongdoing here on the part of the Ingrams, finding money and deciding what to do with it later is a natural, normal human response).
Does anybody know the Ingrams whereabouts in the days or weeks preceding when they reported it, was that ever investigated? Pure conjecture, for sure, but unexplored conjecture which is rare in Cooperland. The biggest issue with this theory is, what motivation is there on the part of the Ingrams to not report the real find location? The most logical, is the simplest, Tina Bar was an easy location to get at, perhaps returning to the "real" location would have been a PITA, and not knowing they were Cooper bills, who really cares "where" it was found.  Once finding the vast implications of the bills and their origin, changing the story would have meant massive media and public backlash towards the Ingrams.
Just a theory, they are a dime a dozen it seems.

Lot's of what-ifs and conjecture on your part.  :)

The FBI account of the Ingram find is generally confirmed from a number of independent witnesses. The FBI did not have to rely on Pat & Harold Ingram's account alone. Independent verification of Pat & Harold's actions and the timeline, was verified.   

Three immediate ramifications of that fact were: (1) the Pat & Harold were not able to redeem any money at a bank! (b) Pat & Harold had to turn in four additional bills they withheld from the FBI as 'souvenirs'! (c) Harold had to return to another State to settle an outstanding Warrant on him, and (d) et cetera. The Ingrams never got  a reward because the period for a reward had expired. The Ingrams had to get an attorney to sue over their claim vis-a-vis finders-discovery rights.

The Ingram's were not operating in a secret vacuum and neither were local agencies, institutions, law enforcement, others, or the FBI!

end of story...  :)
« Last Edit: April 04, 2015, 05:02:54 PM by georger »
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Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #883 on: April 04, 2015, 05:58:08 PM »
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NMI, the poll results should be visible now.....
Interesting.  No consensus, that's for sure.

For the record and whatever it is worth, Meyer Louie and I spent a day at Tina Bar in July 2013.  We met a fellow named "Jon" who had the keys to the place (or at least the gate), was extremely knowledgeable about that area, and told us that he had been at Tina Bar on practically a daily basis for about the last 50 years.

Jon was convinced that the money had been deposited at Tina Bar by the dredging.  That seems to be the favored theory of the Tina Bar "regulars".  However, that doesn't seem logical to me.


Several things: The Bechly reports makes it clear (a) 'a part of the money package could have survived the dredge, and (b) 'part of the money' could have been pumped to the beach along with sediment. And that is almost what you find. A part of several bundles in somewhat shaved-tattered condition, with additional weather from having been buried in nature for a number of years, which finally reaches surface exposure through erosion of the beach ?

I look at those groups of money sitting on the table in the photo at Portland and I ask myself: 'are there signs of physical-mechanical destruction of the money?' That is one question I think should have been explored further with the right people, and it was not explored so far as I know. But aside from natural weathering, does that money show signs of mechanical destruction .... like cut marks and percussion marks from blades, on bones?

There are forensic people who specialise in examinations of this kind. I wanted that group of highly experienced experts to take a look at this money, because I don't think any ordinary examination by lab people at Quantico would have been qualified  (or even did!) such an examination looking specifically for signs of mechanical damage. The FBI was just interested in finger printing and looking at sediment sands. (according to the FBI lab notes Tom and I were given).

If you can confirm mechanical destruction in the money you almost have to link the money at Tina Bar to the dredging in 1974.

One must ask: What types of alteration is apparent on that money? Natural weathering and bio-degeneration? Mechanical destruction or alteration? What stages of band deterioration does an examination of the band fragments show, as that applies to time passage and temperature(s) of the environment the money was in, especially during the first year after 1971?

I also want to see the full lab reports on whatever tests were actually done on this money. There has to be a baseline to work from and without knowing the details of any prior lab analysis, and the results, we are engaged in guessing and lacking direction in what to do next ...

Lastly, Kaye's debate with Palmer over strata, has only confused the issue the way Tom has laid this out! Tom has yet to tell us what layer of strata WAS the money found in! Palmer says the money was found in the "upper active most recent layer" of sand. What layer is Tom saying the money was found in? Anyone know!?

Is Tom saying Palmer had the 'upper active layer' wrong too!? Quite frankly, what in hell is Tom saying?

Is Tom saying the dredging layer was all gone by 1980 and the money was found above that? Or below that layer?  Is Tom saying there was no 'upper active layer'?

What layer was the money found in?
  ;)

Somewhere along the way, an explanation has to be provided as to how some of the bills in one bundle were "rotated" with most of the "rotated" bill having broken off and disappeared (see Tom's web page for a picture and discussion).  That bundle could not have been compacted when that happened and only moving water could have done the rotation, etc..  If this was done in place at Tina Bar, then the packs of bill could not have been compacted when they arrived there.  They would also have to be submerged in water and that could very well explain why they were not immediately noticed by the Tina Bar regulars.

The money find was several feet (at least 5+ feet) above the river level on both the find date and the date of the hijacking.  To me, this means that the money had to land at a still higher level above the river water and in due time the flooding river water reached the money bag, and eventually became high enough to dislodge it from where it had landed.  Since the spring flooding didn't start for a few weeks, it is possible that the Cooper "package" was not capable of floating by that time and the money's entire trip would have been downhill and under water from its landing point to its eventual find point. 
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #884 on: April 04, 2015, 09:30:52 PM »
I've mentioned this before, but if he was a no pull, and the money was with him you would think the money would have shifted dramatically once he hit the ground, especially if he landed on the bag?
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