Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find  (Read 1434035 times)

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #795 on: March 26, 2015, 06:15:30 AM »
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In this document they say Coopers body would of clogged the dredge, but the bag could get through. Cooper's body would of been in pieces. it wouldn't of "clogged" the dredge. chains, and cannonballs go through with no hitch?

How could the money found it's way to Tina Bar via La Center as stated in the document?

what is this clipping from?


The FBI vault......
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #796 on: March 28, 2015, 07:16:46 AM »
Then you read reports like this one (see attachment)
 

Offline nmiwrecks

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #797 on: March 28, 2015, 10:06:17 AM »
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Then you read reports like this one (see attachment)
After reviewing the interpretations of the Palmer Report and rubber band analysis by the Citizen Sleuths on their website, I can say that I am very skeptical of the work the Citizen Sleuths have done on this case.  Even worse, I think some of the misinformation they have produced has done this case a serious disservice by sending the investigation in the wrong direction on multiple issues.  That being said, I understand why the Citizen Sleuths were allowed to do these experiments.  The case had grown very cold and technology had advanced quite a bit over the years and maybe some fresh eyeballs and new technology could tell us something.  At the time, it might have been the right thing to do.  But looking back, has the Citizen Sleuth investigation yielded anything that brings this case closer to being solved?  Or, have their interpretations of their data lead the investigation astray?


« Last Edit: March 28, 2015, 06:54:10 PM by shutter »
"If you always do what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you’ve always got." - Henry Ford
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #798 on: March 28, 2015, 03:32:18 PM »
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Then you read reports like this one (see attachment)
After reviewing the interpretations of the Palmer Report and rubber band analysis by the Citizen Sleuths on their website, I can say that I am very skeptical of the work the Citizen Sleuths have done on this case.  Even worse, I think some of the misinformation they have produced has done this case a serious disservice by sending the investigation in the wrong direction on multiple issues.  That being said, I understand why the Citizen Sleuths were allowed to do these experiments.  The case had grown very cold and technology had advanced quite a bit over the years and maybe some fresh eyeballs and new technology could tell us something.  At the time, it might have been the right thing to do.  But looking back, has the Citizen Sleuth investigation yielded anything that brings this case closer to being solved?  Or, have their interpretations of their data lead the investigation astray?

What specifically?
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #799 on: March 28, 2015, 06:56:02 PM »

Sorry, NMI. I posted on your last post by mistake. I have a bad habit of hitting modify instead of quote. that's why you will see the last edit by me on your post.

What I was trying to say was....

Hmmm, I agree with Georger. could you give specific reasons. I'm guessing it starts with the rubber band testing?
 

Offline nmiwrecks

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #800 on: March 28, 2015, 10:40:06 PM »
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Sorry, NMI. I posted on your last post by mistake. I have a bad habit of hitting modify instead of quote. that's why you will see the last edit by me on your post.

What I was trying to say was....

Hmmm, I agree with Georger. could you give specific reasons. I'm guessing it starts with the rubber band testing?

CS says:"The rubber band experiments allow less than a year for the money to become entombed in the sand." 

From what I see, this statement was made without the consideration that the money bundles were enclosed in a container underwater and weren't exposed to any kind of water-flow.  You can look at my previous post about the condition of things underwater for more than a century in a static environment.  The erroneous statement above opens the door to all kinds of wackos claiming their loved ones or suspects dug a hole and put the money there in 1979.  Those rubber bands could have been enclosed in the bank bag, underwater, for a decade, and been in same condition as found. 
"If you always do what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you’ve always got." - Henry Ford
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #801 on: March 28, 2015, 10:56:47 PM »
I can't argue with that comment. actually, the bag might not of been in the water long if he landed near by.

Would water slow the process down on the rubber bands?
 

Offline nmiwrecks

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #802 on: March 28, 2015, 11:17:34 PM »
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I can't argue with that comment. actually, the bag might not of been in the water long if he landed near by.

Would water slow the process down on the rubber bands?

Underwater, in an enclosed container, the lack of water-flow would create a low oxygen environment.  This is ideal for preserving delicate materials such as organic materials, paper, cloth, etc.  The rubber bands could last for decades in that environment. 

Another issue I have with the Citizen Sleuths is the tie tanium.  The truth is the use of titanium was much more widespread than the CS's would have us believe.  Here is one example: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Titanium was also used in camera shutters at that time.  My point is, the Citizen Sleuths seem to lead us down a lot of paths, without supplying any results. 
"If you always do what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you’ve always got." - Henry Ford
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #803 on: March 28, 2015, 11:29:25 PM »
That's all basing it on Cooper taking a dip in the Columbia, or him losing the money. with the given drop time miles before the Columbia, it makes it hard to prove the money was either lost, or went down with Cooper in the river.

We need some more proof on the jump time being off....that's the only way it could get near the river. personally, I'v always thought the path could be pretty accurate, and the timing of the jump is wrong. R99's theory makes a lot of sense, but could they be that far off?
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #804 on: March 29, 2015, 07:17:17 AM »
Quote
Titanium was also used in camera shutters at that time.  My point is, the Citizen Sleuths seem to lead us down a lot of paths, without supplying any results.

There are different types of Titanium. was the shutters on camera's pure titanium, or titanium alloy?

Georger is a lot more qualified in this area than myself, perhaps he will key in on this...
« Last Edit: March 29, 2015, 08:03:54 AM by shutter »
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #805 on: March 29, 2015, 05:51:38 PM »
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Sorry, NMI. I posted on your last post by mistake. I have a bad habit of hitting modify instead of quote. that's why you will see the last edit by me on your post.

What I was trying to say was....

Hmmm, I agree with Georger. could you give specific reasons. I'm guessing it starts with the rubber band testing?

CS says:"The rubber band experiments allow less than a year for the money to become entombed in the sand." 

From what I see, this statement was made without the consideration that the money bundles were enclosed in a container underwater and weren't exposed to any kind of water-flow.  You can look at my previous post about the condition of things underwater for more than a century in a static environment.  The erroneous statement above opens the door to all kinds of wackos claiming their loved ones or suspects dug a hole and put the money there in 1979.  Those rubber bands could have been enclosed in the bank bag, underwater, for a decade, and been in same condition as found.

The whole problem with Kaye's analysis starts with the statement: "the rubber bands were still intact and crumbled when touched". That is not the description I have from the Ingrams and it conflicts with Tom's own assessment: "bands decomposed in less than a year (6 months to a year)" based on his experiments where bands were left in the water or buried in sand.

The obvious contradiction is: If all bands break within a year whether buried in sand or in water, then how is it possible the Ingram bands were "still intact"? By Tom's own experiments: "the bands break in less than a year whether buried or in water".

Tom then goes back and says: "This means the money was buried within the first year after the hijacking". Well... how? If bands break in less than year while the Ingram bands found in 1980 were still "intact" ?

Tom is going in circles of nonsense with his statements. (It's like something Blevins or Weber would say!)

So, you are forced to back up and finally ask: "well were the Ingram bands actually intact" as Tom says? And what does Tom mean by "intact"? And how in hell can bands be both "intact" and "crumbled when touched"? Healthy viable rubber bands don't 'crumble when touched"!

Maybe what Tom means by "intact" is "in place" ... or ... "remnants of bands were still in place and visible"? Because in reality bands which 'crumble when touched' are not viable healthy intact rubber bands - duhhh!

This is the utter confusion we are in because of this piece of confusion: " the bands were intact" ... which may not even be true and probably is not true, and is not what the Ingrams told me! This is not a question of Tom vs Jerry!
This is a question of what was the actual condition of the rubber bands when the money was found. And until we get that basic question answered in some form human beings can understand and communicate about, we have nothing but confusion and hundreds of posts being made by all kinds of experts and nobody knows WTF he or she is even talking about!

Farflung - come to our aid!  :)

And to add further misery to this debacle, nobody has done one piece of lab analysis on any Ingram bands or band fragments that were on the Ingram money! Until that work is done this whole discussion is speculation and nothing more. And very likely, Ingram band fragments exist which could be analyses to this very day!!! So, how many fucking idiots does it take to screw in a rubber band light bulb?

 :) :) :) 
« Last Edit: March 29, 2015, 05:52:56 PM by georger »
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #806 on: March 29, 2015, 05:59:47 PM »
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Sorry, NMI. I posted on your last post by mistake. I have a bad habit of hitting modify instead of quote. that's why you will see the last edit by me on your post.

What I was trying to say was....

Hmmm, I agree with Georger. could you give specific reasons. I'm guessing it starts with the rubber band testing?

CS says:"The rubber band experiments allow less than a year for the money to become entombed in the sand." 

From what I see, this statement was made without the consideration that the money bundles were enclosed in a container underwater and weren't exposed to any kind of water-flow.  You can look at my previous post about the condition of things underwater for more than a century in a static environment.  The erroneous statement above opens the door to all kinds of wackos claiming their loved ones or suspects dug a hole and put the money there in 1979.  Those rubber bands could have been enclosed in the bank bag, underwater, for a decade, and been in same condition as found.

The whole problem with Kaye's analysis starts with the statement: "the rubber bands were still intact and crumbled when touched". That is not the description I have from the Ingrams and it conflicts with Tom's own assessment: "bands decomposed in less than a year (6 months to a year)" based on his experiments where bands were left in the water or buried in sand.

The obvious contradiction is: If all bands break within a year whether buried in sand or in water, then how is it possible the Ingram bands were "still intact"? By Tom's own experiments: "the bands break in less than a year whether buried or in water".

Tom then goes back and says: "This means the money was buried within the first year after the hijacking". Well... how? If bands break in less than year while the Ingram bands found in 1980 were still "intact" ?

Tom is going in circles of nonsense with his statements. (It's like something Blevins or Weber would say!)

So, you are forced to back up and finally ask: "well were the Ingram bands actually intact" as Tom says? And what does Tom mean by "intact"? And how in hell can bands be both "intact" and "crumbled when touched"? Healthy viable rubber bands don't 'crumble when touched"!

Maybe what Tom means by "intact" is "in place" ... or ... "remnants of bands were still in place and visible"? Because in reality bands which 'crumble when touched' are not viable healthy intact rubber bands - duhhh!

This is the utter confusion we are in because of this piece of confusion: " the bands were intact" ... which may not even be true and probably is not true, and is not what the Ingrams told me! This is not a question of Tom vs Jerry!
This is a question of what was the actual condition of the rubber bands when the money was found. And until we get that basic question answered in some form human beings can understand and communicate about, we have nothing but confusion and hundreds of posts being made by all kinds of experts and nobody knows WTF he or she is even talking about!

Farflung - come to our aid!  :)

And to add further misery to this debacle, nobody has done one piece of lab analysis on any Ingram bands or band fragments that were on the Ingram money! Until that work is done this whole discussion is speculation and nothing more. And very likely, Ingram band fragments exist which could be analyses to this very day!!! So, how many fucking idiots does it take to screw in a rubber band light bulb?

 :) :) :)

This is all very simple, believe it or not. Everything hinges on what is meat by the statement: "the rubber bands were still intact and crumbled when touched".

On a common sense level what Tom is saying is utter nonsense and a contradiction.

Tom could have asked for and been given 'band fragments' to test, but he chose not to do that preferring instead to make general-confusing statements like: "the rubber bands were still intact and crumbled when touched" which is basically meaningless.

Were we in this to think and do lab work or not?

I am totally 100% mystified.

 :o

 

 
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #807 on: March 29, 2015, 06:27:11 PM »
One would think the bundles separated when Brian ran his hands through the sand? that should of disrupted the whole thing basically. I seriously doubt the bands would stay in any position for almost a decade?

I've contacted the "Alliance Rubber Band Company" asking for similar bands that were used in the same time period.

Is anyone game for setting up some testing on these puppies?
« Last Edit: March 29, 2015, 06:28:08 PM by shutter »
 

Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #808 on: March 29, 2015, 06:54:31 PM »
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One would think the bundles separated when Brian ran his hands through the sand? that should of disrupted the whole thing basically. I seriously doubt the bands would stay in any position for almost a decade?

I've contacted the "Alliance Rubber Band Company" asking for similar bands that were used in the same time period.

Is anyone game for setting up some testing on these puppies?

By a fluke of fate, I have two almost empty bags of rubber bands made by Alliance and in their packages.  I don't remember where I got them or when but they list a 2001 date which is apparently the date manufactured and apparently in the USA.  I also have more rubber bands about the same sizes in bags that bear the Staples brand name with one bag being dated 2002 and the other 2009 and both were manufactured in Thailand.

All of these rubber bands are in good shape after who knows how long in my computer room.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #809 on: March 29, 2015, 07:08:25 PM »
I asked them in the email if there was any difference in the manufacturing from the 70's, and today. this is where Tom got the bands for the testing, so I figured they were the ones to contact, plus they supplied a lot of banks with these rubber bands...