Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find  (Read 1507184 times)

Offline snowmman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1877
  • Thanked: 176 times
Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6510 on: September 12, 2021, 02:49:35 AM »
georger, in  a previous post here, you said this.. this is the first time I've noticed that it was apparently an auger dredge? I had previously thought it was a blade/cutter dredge

JACK BECHLY, Civil Engineer Chief , Waterways Maintenance Branch, Navigation Division, U.S. Army Engineer District.

Paraphrasing, he said a 'package of money of the stated size would be broken into pieces by the auger, before passing through the pipe and being deposited on the beach.' So, he does not rule out 'pieces' being passed through the pipe to be 'deposited on the beach'.

That is from the file Tom is quoting.


also


3. FBI Transcript, Benchly: "The dredge "Washington" of the General Construction Company did the dredging on this project. It had a 24 inch pipe with a wiper bar inside the pipe. The wiper bar keeps large objects such as rocks from passing through the pipe.


and as shutter noted, an auger dredge is a different thing:

Lots of things to consider. the auger is a slow RPM head. the bit could of only grabbed part of the money, or the bag causing the bag to break open, and the money escapes. it could of sucked a large portion of it up, and several bundles remained intact. I'm not sold on the dredge theory, but believe it's a point of interest...



in fact your comments seem right on

'package of money of the stated size would be broken into pieces by the auger, before passing through the pipe and being deposited on the beach.'

This allows pieces of the package of the stated size to pass through the pipe on to the bar.

Tom's version is: Nothing could have passed through the auger or pipe".  Which is not what Benchly says.

The Ingram find and the few fragments Tom claims were found is precisely what the Benchly report specifies. Tom is claiming Benchly said "all of the money would be destroyed" and that is not what the Benchly report says, in plain English.

« Last Edit: September 12, 2021, 02:54:53 AM by snowmman »
 
The following users thanked this post: georger

Offline snowmman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1877
  • Thanked: 176 times
Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6511 on: September 12, 2021, 02:57:22 AM »
The dredge "Washington" and the General Construction Company existed as far back as 1950?

picture missing but apparently pumped sand that was used to build the Portland airport (1950)
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
"
1950 PRESS PHOTO THE ELECTRIC DREDGE WASHINGTON OF GENERAL CONSTRUCTION COMPANY
 

The electric dredge Washington of General Construction company pumps sand from the Columbia river to a stock pile at the northwest corner of Portland airport for use in future construction of the $750,000, 8800-fool runway for oversees and super-sized planes."
 

Offline snowmman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1877
  • Thanked: 176 times
Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6512 on: September 12, 2021, 02:59:59 AM »
They also dredged elsewhere in 1972 (just to show they existed)
Note the "Beaver" was a "bucket dredge"

458 F.2d 1186

GENERAL CONSTRUCTION COMPANY, a Washington corporation, et
al., Appellants,
v.
UMPQUA RIVER NAVIGATION COMPANY, an Oregon corporation, Appellee.

No. 25913.

United States Court of Appeals,
Ninth Circuit.

April 7, 1972.

Nathan J. Heath (argued) of Gray, Fredrickson & Heath, Portland, Or., for appellant.

Kenneth E. Roberts (argued), Ridgway K. Foley, Jr., Ben Lombard, Jr., of Souther, Spaulding, Kinsey & Williamson, Portland, Or., for appellee.

Before BARNES and KILKENNY, Circuit Judges, and McNICHOLS, District Judge.*

KILKENNY, Circuit Judge:


Advertisement

1
In the lower court, appellants sought indemnification from appellee for injuries sustained by General's employee during dredging operations conducted by it as general contractor, with appellee as a subcontractor. The employee's judgment against General was affirmed by the Oregon Supreme Court in Kinney v. General Construction Co., 248 Or. 500, 435 P.2d 297 (1967). The lower court denied indemnification. We affirm.FACTUAL BACKGROUND

2
A brief outline of the facts is in order.1 General is a contractor in marine construction, as is appellee. It contracted with the Army Corps of Engineers to excavate, or dredge, shotrock from the Columbia River Channel. Later, appellee, as subcontractor, agreed to furnish the floating bucket dredge BEAVER with a two-man crew to perform the dredging services. General, with its tug, picked up the BEAVER, located it on the project and provided a barge into which the rock was dumped. Appellee, as agreed, provided two men to operate the dredge. However, under the contract, the over-all supervision of the project, including the loading and the dumping of the barge, was the obligation of General.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2021, 03:00:55 AM by snowmman »
 

Offline snowmman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1877
  • Thanked: 176 times
Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6513 on: September 12, 2021, 03:12:50 AM »
big difference between cutterhead dredge and auger head dredge
"rotating archimedean screw at right angles to the suction pipe"
apparently only invented in the '70s??


from wikipedia
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Cutter-suction
A cutter-suction dredger's (CSD) suction tube has a cutting mechanism at the suction inlet. The cutting mechanism loosens the bed material and transports it to the suction mouth. The dredged material is usually sucked up by a wear-resistant centrifugal pump and discharged either through a pipe line or to a barge. Cutter-suction dredgers are most often used in geological areas consisting of hard surface materials (for example gravel deposits or surface bedrock) where a standard suction dredger would be ineffective. They can, if sufficiently powerful, be used instead of underwater blasting.[11]

Auger suction
The auger dredge system functions like a cutter suction dredger, but the cutting tool is a rotating Archimedean screw set at right angles to the suction pipe. Mud Cat invented the auger dredge in the 1970s.[13]

 

Offline Chaucer

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1085
  • Thanked: 249 times
Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6514 on: September 12, 2021, 03:14:54 AM »
I can get my hands on US Army Corps of Engineers records of dredging operations on that area of the Columbia from 1971 to 1980. I could tell you when and where dredging was done. Where it was taken and where it was deposited. Just ask.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2021, 03:31:28 AM by Chaucer »
“Completely unhinged”
 
The following users thanked this post: georger

Offline snowmman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1877
  • Thanked: 176 times
Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6515 on: September 12, 2021, 03:25:24 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I can get my hands on US Army Corps of Engineers records of dredging operations on that area I’d the Columbia from 1971 to 1980. I could tell you when and where dredging was done. Where it was taken and where it was deposited. Just ask.

sure... git 'er done.

everything from say 1971 to 1974
really interested in the exact dredge used...auger dredge?
whether any dredge spoils were barged/transported
was all dredge spoils via pipe to shore? How long was the pipe? any intermediate pumps used?

was any clamshell dredging used or backhoe/excavator-style dredging (maybe near shore)

were rocks encountered? what size?

what about dredge spoils on the other side of the river? dumped to a ranch . Forgot the name.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2021, 03:34:38 AM by snowmman »
 

Offline snowmman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1877
  • Thanked: 176 times
Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6516 on: September 12, 2021, 12:48:10 PM »
The language from the 302 about the dredge has a different feel than what people have summarized, I think.

Also, the "50 yards" of spreading is accompanied by "probably" ..i.e. it's just a  guess. Silly that people treat it as an accurate number


They say the package could pass thru the dredge pipe. Relevant 2 pages from fbi file 43 pages 374 and 375  attached.


The channel is maintained at 40 feet in depth and all the material above 40 feet is dredged out. The dredge "Washington" of the General Construction Company did the dredging on this project. It had a 24 inch pipe with wiper bar inside the pipe. The wiper bar keeps large objects such as rocks from passing through the pipe.

<redacted> stated it would be possible for a 16x16x4 inch package to get through the pipe; however it is likely that a package that size or a human body or parts thereof would be broken into pieces by the auger than passed through the pipe and deposited on the beach.

The material deposited on the beach was spread with tractors probably over a area of 50 yards in each direction.


Goes on to mention 6 aerial photos, and dates Sept. 6, 1974, Aug. 9, 1970, and Sept 27, 1979
We have 3 photos. Maybe each is a combination of 2 photos.

It mentions they are marked "to indicate where the money was located". Carr had said he couldn't confirm what the circles on the photos meant, but that's what they apparently are.


Also:

<redacted> also provided a chart titled Columbia River Willow Bar, dated December 4, 1979, which has been marked to show the location of the money, dredge material, and area of the channel that was dredged.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2021, 01:22:39 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline snowmman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1877
  • Thanked: 176 times
Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6517 on: September 12, 2021, 01:21:23 PM »
The Palmer report (302) in file 43 pages 369 through 372 seems a little misrepresented to me, also.

Palmer called it a "clay lump layer (dredge) sand layer" . When Tom Kaye says that Palmer mischaracterized a natural clay layer, I think Tom is misrepresenting Palmer's words.

People act like he described it as a solid clay layer. Not. He described it as a sand layer with lumps of clay from one to five inches in diameter. To me, "lumps" sound like it could have been excavated by dredge, as Palmer says.

I attached all the pages. Palmer's handdrawn sand profile on page 372 is attached and interesting also.

The handdrawn profile shows how the depth of each layer narrowed as it approached the water line.

page 369 of file 43

...approximately 4 different layers. These layers consisted of an upper sand layer, a post dredging sand layer, a clay lump (dredge) sand layer, and below that an older sand layer.

The upper layer consisted of six inches to eight inches of reworked beach sand and is the sand which contained the fragments and bundles of the recovered money.

This sand also contained soda pop cans and other debris, which were not severely damaged or rusted.

The post dredging sand contained older soda pop cans, rusted nails and spikes, and other rusted artificats, which were in a much more deteriorated condition.

The clay lump (dredge) sand was a mixture of course sand and fragments of organic clay material,  ranging from one to five inches in size.

<mentions the last dredging at the site in 1974>

The older sands, which were light in color and uniform in texture and which were found below the clay lump sand, were deposited prior to the 1974 dredging.

<redacted> advised that in the post dredging layer, he found cross bedded course and medium sand, which indicated that the river and river waves had worked repeatedly on this layer since 1974.

The upper six inches to eight inches of reworked beach sand is the active layer which is currently being worked by the water of the Columbia River.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2021, 01:25:54 PM by snowmman »
 
The following users thanked this post: georger

Offline georger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3187
  • Thanked: 467 times
Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6518 on: September 12, 2021, 02:48:01 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I can get my hands on US Army Corps of Engineers records of dredging operations on that area of the Columbia from 1971 to 1980. I could tell you when and where dredging was done. Where it was taken and where it was deposited. Just ask.

do it!  :)
 

Offline georger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3187
  • Thanked: 467 times
Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6519 on: September 12, 2021, 03:02:42 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
The Palmer report (302) in file 43 pages 369 through 372 seems a little misrepresented to me, also.

Palmer called it a "clay lump layer (dredge) sand layer" . When Tom Kaye says that Palmer mischaracterized a natural clay layer, I think Tom is misrepresenting Palmer's words.

People act like he described it as a solid clay layer. Not. He described it as a sand layer with lumps of clay from one to five inches in diameter. To me, "lumps" sound like it could have been excavated by dredge, as Palmer says.

I attached all the pages. Palmer's handdrawn sand profile on page 372 is attached and interesting also.

The handdrawn profile shows how the depth of each layer narrowed as it approached the water line.

page 369 of file 43

...approximately 4 different layers. These layers consisted of an upper sand layer, a post dredging sand layer, a clay lump (dredge) sand layer, and below that an older sand layer.

The upper layer consisted of six inches to eight inches of reworked beach sand and is the sand which contained the fragments and bundles of the recovered money.

This sand also contained soda pop cans and other debris, which were not severely damaged or rusted.

The post dredging sand contained older soda pop cans, rusted nails and spikes, and other rusted artificats, which were in a much more deteriorated condition.

The clay lump (dredge) sand was a mixture of course sand and fragments of organic clay material,  ranging from one to five inches in size.

<mentions the last dredging at the site in 1974>

The older sands, which were light in color and uniform in texture and which were found below the clay lump sand, were deposited prior to the 1974 dredging.

<redacted> advised that in the post dredging layer, he found cross bedded course and medium sand, which indicated that the river and river waves had worked repeatedly on this layer since 1974.

The upper six inches to eight inches of reworked beach sand is the active layer which is currently being worked by the water of the Columbia River.


chart - Palmer layers
 

Offline snowmman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1877
  • Thanked: 176 times
Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6520 on: September 12, 2021, 03:05:24 PM »
I want to reemphasize that people should check out the handdrawn Palmer sand profile
the variation in layer depth (all get smaller) as you approach the water line, is so important.

it affects all theories.

EDIT: and we should say "clay lump layer" to capture Palmer's description. Not "clay layer"
"Clay Layer" has caused incorrect assumptions over time.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2021, 03:50:52 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline Robert99

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1711
  • Thanked: 196 times
Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6521 on: September 12, 2021, 03:06:58 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I can get my hands on US Army Corps of Engineers records of dredging operations on that area of the Columbia from 1971 to 1980. I could tell you when and where dredging was done. Where it was taken and where it was deposited. Just ask.

do it!  :)

Chaucer, if you can get your hands on the water level data for the Corps of Engineers gage at Vancouver for the time frame from November 24,1971 to March 1, 1980, please do so.  Data is, or was, available for this gage from about 1974 to long after the money was found at Tena Bar in 1980.  But we need the data from the day of the hijacking forward and preferably to 1980.

This gage is located on the Vancouver side of the Columbia River and just a few hundred feet east of the I-5 bridge.
 

Offline snowmman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1877
  • Thanked: 176 times
Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6522 on: September 12, 2021, 03:49:41 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

good chart georger.
But I believe charts like this have led to some confusion.
they represent what Palmer said.
but they don't represent the variation that Palmer drew in his profile, as you approach the water line.

Notably, Palmer did not make certain layers disappear as he approached the water line. I think he kept all layers, just made them thinner. Whether this was accurate is debatable.

but: it implies that either layers were not uniformly deposited, or that some action thinned them over time.

it actually adds a lot of possible theories that would be valid. I think it increases the idea that the money was deposited by dredge spoils/tractors/bulldozers and just exposed thru the action of the river over time.

all the nonsense about "rounded edges" of the money that Palmer used to explain his theory, I think that's not correct.
I think the rounded edges are solely from the Ingrams washing the money, and that the edges were more brittle than the center. "rounded edges" means nothing about water action, which Palmer tried to suggest caused it. (Palmer should have talked about sink water action!!)
« Last Edit: September 12, 2021, 04:03:53 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline snowmman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1877
  • Thanked: 176 times
Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6523 on: September 12, 2021, 03:55:22 PM »
On page 2 of the palmer 302 (fbi file 43 page 370)

<redacted> found during his work at the site and areas surrounding the site, that the clay lump (dredged) sand ranging from a depth of approximately four feet, 25 yards from the money site, to only two feet where the money was found.

He advised this could be caused by many reasons, but most probably caused by the different elevations of the beach sand at the time the dredging occurred.


All this unexplainable variation, goes a long way to showing how all the "precise" measurements people have tried to do recently..either depth or distance...are just silly.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2021, 03:59:11 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline snowmman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1877
  • Thanked: 176 times
Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6524 on: September 12, 2021, 07:59:40 PM »
I had not read the article about the "Sioux City Sarsaparilla" cans being found near the cooper money

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

"Sioux City Sarsparilla was lodged in the same level that the money was found" Palmer said


that is not the correct spelling..correct: "Sarsaparilla"  (four a's)

This page says the drink was not created until 1973
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Nesbitt Orange apparently there also.

If the cans were open, they wouldn't float. Typically would fill with fine sand somewhat, if in river?

Two things:
1) did those cans come up to the beach via dredging without damage?
2) Did they appear with the 1974 dredging.

in the fbi report when they talked about rusted nails/spikes..did those travel through the dredge?


Sioux City Sarsaparilla is the signature drink from White Rock's Sioux City line. In 1973, White Rock president Albert Morgan wanted to start a western inspired line of classic American soft drinks, with a frontier feel. He chose Sioux City as his inspiration! Sioux City Sarsaparilla is known as "the Grandaddy of all root beers" and has a creamy taste somewhere between root beer and cream soda. And it's the most bought sarsaparilla in the US!

... Sioux City Sarsaparilla is actually made in New York by White Rock Beverages! The company actually started not too far away from Iowa, in neighboring Wisconsin, but by the time the Sioux City pop line was created, they were firmly established as a New York company, staffed with New Yorkers to whom Sioux City sounded like the wild west!


« Last Edit: September 12, 2021, 08:09:16 PM by snowmman »