Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find  (Read 1357777 times)

Offline dudeman17

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 325
  • Thanked: 100 times
Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6420 on: September 08, 2021, 06:13:52 PM »
Another factor would be, if the money bag was tied to Cooper and it was otherwise being pulled under, the air/water transfer would probably happen faster than if the bag was alone and allowed to float on top for a while.

I would think that drug smugglers at sea would wrap their goods in low/zero porosity plastic to avoid sea water contamination, and their bags would float considerably longer than a cotton one.
 

Offline Chaucer

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1080
  • Thanked: 243 times
Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6421 on: September 08, 2021, 06:27:33 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Another factor would be, if the money bag was tied to Cooper and it was otherwise being pulled under, the air/water transfer would probably happen faster than if the bag was alone and allowed to float on top for a while.

I would think that drug smugglers at sea would wrap their goods in low/zero porosity plastic to avoid sea water contamination, and their bags would float considerably longer than a cotton one.
Another thing to consider would be the condition of the bag after a no pull. That bag may simply explode.

A lot of speculation and not a lot to sink your teeth into...
“Completely unhinged”
 

Offline snowmman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1877
  • Thanked: 176 times
Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6422 on: September 08, 2021, 06:28:04 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Dredging material removed at these coords ...  answering several inquiries:

The dredge material deposited at the site where the money was located came from the north ‘half of the ship channel, which is 300 feet wide, between river mile marker 96 plus 38 feet and river mile marker 97 plus 17 feet. This material was deposited at two locations on the beach of the FAZIO Brothers’ Farm between August 19 through the 25th, 1974, ‘and consisted of 91,100 cubic yards of fill, and at one other location across the river on the Oregon side.



91,100 cubic yard of fill.

So what happend to all that fill?

Assume the fill was spread evenly at 3ft deep (1 yard)

that's 91,100 sq yards covered.
assuming a width of 50 yards, that's 1822 yards long (a rectangle)

that's more than 1 mile!

even if you say the width was 100 yards, that's about half a mile.

I think they had a sand operation going right? So not all of the dredging spoil was spread out locally...?? some was sold?

we talked about the piles of sand at their sand company before.



 

Offline snowmman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1877
  • Thanked: 176 times
Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6423 on: September 08, 2021, 06:36:09 PM »
here's an old post from dropzone in 2008, where I was talking (email) to some guy.
interesting he mentioned the Fazios doing dredging every year (at least in modern time, apparently they started around 1995? You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login )

it's too bad there seem to be missing images ...

We explored all the dredging spoils that went to this Ranch back then. I xxx'ed out the name then. I guess I was more concerned about people's privacy then :)

I wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Once you're comfortable with 5 years or so at Tena Bar, then you bump into the likelihood that somehow dredging displacement may have caused the final resting place at Tena Bar. '74 is a year quoted for dredging, although it's unclear if that was the only year from '71 thru '80 in that location.

Here's some anecdotal info about dredging on both sides of the river from a long term resident on the other side of the river, (across from Tena Bar)

I was asking him about info in a court case where it incidentally mentions that the Army Corps of Engineers dumped about 175,000 cubic yards of sand on about 20 acres of land in the Sauvie Island area in August 1974, rendering it useless for farming.

[edit] Reeder Beach is on the other (OR) side of the river.
his reply:

"xxx xxx was an xxx of mine, a very private person. I know nothing about any sale of her land. I do know that there was a lot of sand pumped on to her land, and she sold sand for several years, at a good price, to contractors. ... Her farm was called xxx Ranch, and is located about 1/2 mile south of Reeder Beach.

Spoil from the dredging done by the Corp. of Engineers in 1974 , on the Oregon side in our area, was dumped on the xxx Ranch, and on the Washington side, was pumped on to Fazio Farms, on Lower River Road, north of Vancouver, where the D.B. Cooper money was found.

The last dumping of dredging spoil on Reeder Beach was in the mid 1960s. All of the 1974 sand on this side, went to xxx Ranch and shortly after that, the environmentalists got into the picture and declared that the water, which ran off of the sand back into the river, was polluting the river, and the Corp of Engineers is no longer able to pump the spoil on to the riverbank. .... no longer able to restore the beach, even though the major flood of 1996 washed away over 150 feet of ... beach frontage."

I also got some info from the houseboat-living guy on the current dredging every year that gets the sand onto the shore, at the Fazio Bros. Sand Company. (the big pile you see in Google Earth)

Ckret had previously said the '74 dredging was with a bladed dredger. I'm wondering if it was a similar Auger suction dredge.

"Fazio dredges with an Auger suction dredge (do a wikipedia search) every winter (it's illegal to dredge after April 1st, salmon habitat and all). They pump the dredge spoils up onto the hill, so every year the sand increases, then decreases as the sand is trucked out."

wikipedia auger suction dredge:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

[edit] wiki says the first wide use of auger suction dredges was in the '80s. So still unclear what the exact bladed dredger in '74 was.


and ckret's point of view, I guess the fbi held, was this:

June 4, 2008
The person who actually managed the operation in 74 was interviewed by agents after the find in 80. He is the one who gave comment about junk from the bottom being processed through the dredge. i'll go back and dredge up the interview. As i rememeber he gave the impression anything sent through, like bags of cash, would have been torn apart.

« Last Edit: September 08, 2021, 06:42:43 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline snowmman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1877
  • Thanked: 176 times
Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6424 on: September 08, 2021, 06:45:03 PM »
Note that I was trying to leave the "out" that the money may have been "displaced" by dredging...not necessarily gone thru the bladed dredger.

There was lots of displacement of the river bottom ..that's the main thing. Lots of activity.
 

Offline Chaucer

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1080
  • Thanked: 243 times
Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6425 on: September 08, 2021, 07:00:33 PM »
Just for fun, here are the data points I sent to my friend:

Height of bank bag = 75cm
Width of bank bag =  50cm
Length of bank bag = 50 cm
Weight of bag of $200,000 in twenties = 10.35 kg

I've attached my friend's calculations below. Again, based on these data points, the bag would float.
“Completely unhinged”
 

Offline Chaucer

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1080
  • Thanked: 243 times
Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6426 on: September 08, 2021, 07:15:23 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Dredging material removed at these coords ...  answering several inquiries:

The dredge material deposited at the site where the money was located came from the north ‘half of the ship channel, which is 300 feet wide, between river mile marker 96 plus 38 feet and river mile marker 97 plus 17 feet. This material was deposited at two locations on the beach of the FAZIO Brothers’ Farm between August 19 through the 25th, 1974, ‘and consisted of 91,100 cubic yards of fill, and at one other location across the river on the Oregon side.



91,100 cubic yard of fill.

So what happend to all that fill?

Assume the fill was spread evenly at 3ft deep (1 yard)

that's 91,100 sq yards covered.
assuming a width of 50 yards, that's 1822 yards long (a rectangle)

that's more than 1 mile!

even if you say the width was 100 yards, that's about half a mile.

I think they had a sand operation going right? So not all of the dredging spoil was spread out locally...?? some was sold?

we talked about the piles of sand at their sand company before.
That's more dredge material than would fit on Tena Bar if my math is right. How would that work? That would be like trying to fit 10 pounds of shit in a 5 pound bag.
“Completely unhinged”
 

Offline snowmman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1877
  • Thanked: 176 times
Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6427 on: September 08, 2021, 07:19:24 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Just for fun, here are the data points I sent to my friend:

Height of bank bag = 75cm
Width of bank bag =  50cm
Length of bank bag = 50 cm
Weight of bag of $200,000 in twenties = 10.35 kg

I've attached my friend's calculations below. Again, based on these data points, the bag would float.

I think he didn't account for water getting into the bag, either thru the opening or porosity of the fabric.

i.e. it's a leaky boat, not a boat.
 

Offline snowmman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1877
  • Thanked: 176 times
Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6428 on: September 08, 2021, 07:31:31 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Dredging material removed at these coords ...  answering several inquiries:

The dredge material deposited at the site where the money was located came from the north ‘half of the ship channel, which is 300 feet wide, between river mile marker 96 plus 38 feet and river mile marker 97 plus 17 feet. This material was deposited at two locations on the beach of the FAZIO Brothers’ Farm between August 19 through the 25th, 1974, ‘and consisted of 91,100 cubic yards of fill, and at one other location across the river on the Oregon side.



91,100 cubic yard of fill.

So what happend to all that fill?

Assume the fill was spread evenly at 3ft deep (1 yard)

that's 91,100 sq yards covered.
assuming a width of 50 yards, that's 1822 yards long (a rectangle)

that's more than 1 mile!

even if you say the width was 100 yards, that's about half a mile.

I think they had a sand operation going right? So not all of the dredging spoil was spread out locally...?? some was sold?

we talked about the piles of sand at their sand company before.
That's more dredge material than would fit on Tena Bar if my math is right. How would that work? That would be like trying to fit 10 pounds of shit in a 5 pound bag.

See that's why all this fine-grained analysis of dredge spoils just doesn't work. There were too many things in flight to analyze all that happened, and where.

When we have limited info, you can analyze the info to death, but that doesn't mean the available info is all that happened.

just saw an interesting collection of info from flyjack in 2020 on these details of where sand went
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Fazio started their Fazio Brothers Sand Company at some point. I had thought it was '70s but now not sure. Web seems to talk about it being a 25 year old company so that aligns with them getting their dredging permit in '95 or so. (I referred to pictures from their dredging permit application which shows the dredge pipe going to a similar place to where the bumps where on the old maps..near where the current large sand piles were in google earth)

So I guess it's a valid question: what happened to all the 1974 sand on the Fazio side. Was it just dumped? or was some sold like it was on the OR side (the ranch)

how much got moved off site vs stayed? Dunno.
You saw my post on the lady's ranch across the river that sold sand. She got sand during the same dredging operation, just on the other side of the river.


EDIT: in FLYJACK's post I think he references the Fazio sand and gravel operation being active in 1975, but I didn't read close enough, maybe. I forget these details.
 
« Last Edit: September 08, 2021, 07:49:49 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline snowmman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1877
  • Thanked: 176 times
Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6429 on: September 08, 2021, 07:40:38 PM »
scrolling thru some of the recent FJ posts.

"Palmer found soda cans in the same top layer as the money and suggested that if the soda cans could be dated it may help determine the arrival time of the money on TBAR. Palmer also stated that the debris in the upper layer with the money was fresher and not very damaged."


it's funny, it's easy to assume the soda cans came by floating there or by beach people disposing.

But soda cans could have been in the dredge spoils too. Would have been interesting if they could have been dated.

can's don't float. (for long)

so either they are debris from the bottom of the river, or people left garbage on tena bar that got buried, right?

« Last Edit: September 08, 2021, 07:41:29 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline snowmman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1877
  • Thanked: 176 times
Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6430 on: September 08, 2021, 08:19:52 PM »
some info on how many cubic yards the current Fazio operation can store (from 2002)
also mentions an adjacent area (New Columbia Garden Co). Says fazio has 27 acres.

talks about the mean elevation of filled with 290,000 cu yards of sand during 2 year project
says site can accept 650,000 cubic yards

Columbia River Navigation Channel Improvement Project
DRAFT Technical Memorandum. Page 38 July 2, 2002
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
« Last Edit: September 08, 2021, 08:20:35 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline georger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3182
  • Thanked: 467 times
Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6431 on: September 09, 2021, 12:02:36 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Dredging material removed at these coords ...  answering several inquiries:

The dredge material deposited at the site where the money was located came from the north ‘half of the ship channel, which is 300 feet wide, between river mile marker 96 plus 38 feet and river mile marker 97 plus 17 feet. This material was deposited at two locations on the beach of the FAZIO Brothers’ Farm between August 19 through the 25th, 1974, ‘and consisted of 91,100 cubic yards of fill, and at one other location across the river on the Oregon side.



91,100 cubic yard of fill.

So what happend to all that fill?

Assume the fill was spread evenly at 3ft deep (1 yard)

that's 91,100 sq yards covered.
assuming a width of 50 yards, that's 1822 yards long (a rectangle)

that's more than 1 mile!

even if you say the width was 100 yards, that's about half a mile.

I think they had a sand operation going right? So not all of the dredging spoil was spread out locally...?? some was sold?

we talked about the piles of sand at their sand company before.
That's more dredge material than would fit on Tena Bar if my math is right. How would that work? That would be like trying to fit 10 pounds of shit in a 5 pound bag.

See that's why all this fine-grained analysis of dredge spoils just doesn't work. There were too many things in flight to analyze all that happened, and where.

When we have limited info, you can analyze the info to death, but that doesn't mean the available info is all that happened.

just saw an interesting collection of info from flyjack in 2020 on these details of where sand went
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Fazio started their Fazio Brothers Sand Company at some point. I had thought it was '70s but now not sure. Web seems to talk about it being a 25 year old company so that aligns with them getting their dredging permit in '95 or so. (I referred to pictures from their dredging permit application which shows the dredge pipe going to a similar place to where the bumps where on the old maps..near where the current large sand piles were in google earth)

So I guess it's a valid question: what happened to all the 1974 sand on the Fazio side. Was it just dumped? or was some sold like it was on the OR side (the ranch)

how much got moved off site vs stayed? Dunno.
You saw my post on the lady's ranch across the river that sold sand. She got sand during the same dredging operation, just on the other side of the river.


EDIT: in FLYJACK's post I think he references the Fazio sand and gravel operation being active in 1975, but I didn't read close enough, maybe. I forget these details.

I think, stress 'think' FJ is saying there was reclamation work being done (according to neighbors?) prior to the dredging in 74 at Tena Bar. Ask FJ for the details.

Someone evidently interviewed Fazio neighbors? I dunno. 
« Last Edit: September 09, 2021, 12:22:06 AM by georger »
 

Offline georger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3182
  • Thanked: 467 times
Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6432 on: September 09, 2021, 12:21:01 AM »
FJ is stubborn beyond belief! He refuses to look at or acknowledge Tom's research pdf!  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login  My quotes citing Tom saying "summer diatoms" come from that pdf - Kaye's actual work! Anyone is free to see it. FJ refuses to even acknowledge what Tom says in his actual research paper! 

On the other hand instead, FJ is paraphrasing something Tom says in a King-5 news video! You can see that here: King5 video! 
And sure as Hell, in that video Tom says: "The diatoms that we found bloom in the Spring". 

So the problem is Tom Kaye himself. TOM MAKE UP YOUR MIND! Tom refers to "summer diatoms" in his research paper then turns around and calls them "spring diatoms" in his King-5 interview.  All of which FLYJACK attributes to Georger being a fraud and a liar!

Which is the real Tom Kaye? The King-5 news video or the Tom Kaye research paper?  Is it SPRING or is it SUMMER? mAKE UP YOUR MIND. We need consistency, Tom!

Does any of this BS matter to Georger? No.  But it does matter to FLYJACK. Very much it does! Its all because Georger is a fraud and a liar! It is obvious FJ is going to push things to any extreme he can advantage to promote his own personal agenda.

  :rofl:
« Last Edit: September 09, 2021, 12:38:21 AM by georger »
 

Offline Robert99

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1711
  • Thanked: 196 times
Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6433 on: September 09, 2021, 01:21:31 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
While we know from Tom's research that a packet of money won't float for very long, has anyone confirmed with the bank bag filled with money and tightly secured would float?

I know that there are a lot of "unknowables" such as the configuration of the money inside the bag, etc., but in general, would a canvas bank bag fill with $20 bills like the one Cooper received, float in fresh water?

No. 
 

Offline Chaucer

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1080
  • Thanked: 243 times
Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6434 on: September 09, 2021, 01:41:26 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
While we know from Tom's research that a packet of money won't float for very long, has anyone confirmed with the bank bag filled with money and tightly secured would float?

I know that there are a lot of "unknowables" such as the configuration of the money inside the bag, etc., but in general, would a canvas bank bag fill with $20 bills like the one Cooper received, float in fresh water?

No.
Well, this isn’t entirely accurate as I’ve demonstrated in a post above.
“Completely unhinged”