Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

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Offline Chaucer

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6405 on: September 07, 2021, 06:22:50 PM »
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The general assumption seems to be that the three money packets arrived separately and individually on Tena Bar

I don't think there is a 'general assumption" on how the 3 packets arrived there in one place.
it's not discussed much because almost any theory is possible.

Random shit happens.

Maybe a whole bag arrived there, and the rest of the bills (and bag) were removed by some force.
just because 3 are there, doesn't mean you only talk about how 3 may have arrived.
talk about how the rest disappeared..that's just as valid.
I don’t disagree. My point was that the canvas bag and it’s interaction with the environment is often not considered in discussing the condition of the money.
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Offline snowmman

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6406 on: September 07, 2021, 08:28:01 PM »
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Quote
The general assumption seems to be that the three money packets arrived separately and individually on Tena Bar

I don't think there is a 'general assumption" on how the 3 packets arrived there in one place.
it's not discussed much because almost any theory is possible.

Random shit happens.

Maybe a whole bag arrived there, and the rest of the bills (and bag) were removed by some force.
just because 3 are there, doesn't mean you only talk about how 3 may have arrived.
talk about how the rest disappeared..that's just as valid.
I don’t disagree. My point was that the canvas bag and it’s interaction with the environment is often not considered in discussing the condition of the money.

Yup. Any complete money theory should probably start with Cooper on the aft stairs with the bag tied to him (and maybe a couple bundles on his person) and explain what happened to all the money + bag, until 1980.
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Offline georger

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6407 on: September 07, 2021, 11:56:47 PM »
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I was wondering about Tom's implication that clay is not part of dredging spoils. He implied it, but it seems speculative..i.e. that the clay layer at Tena Bar was "natural"

"More than 2,000 sediment samples from the Columbia River Estuary collected
 during different times of the year and at depths ranging from the intertidal
 zone to over 100 feet below MLLW were examined by the Columbia River Estuary
 Data Development Program in 1982. Mean grain sizes ranged from -1.12 phi
 (about 2.2 mm, or very fine gravel) to 8.17 phi (about 0.0035 mm, or coarse clay). "

pdf is available here. The pdf has pictures that the text view does not have
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COLUMBIA RIVER ESTUARY
DREDGING AND IN-WATER DISPOSAL HANDBOOK


                                         December 1989


         This report describes the regulatory process used for making permit
         decisions about in-water dredged material disposal in the Columbia River
         Estuary. The estuary is defined here as extending from the river mouth
         upstream to approximately river mile 45 (see Map 1). In-water disposal of
         dredged material includes flowlane disposal using a hydraulic dredge, or open
         water disposal using a barge. Local, state and federal agencies are involved
         in the permit process for in-water dredged material disposal.


page 12 of the pdf says

           Grain size information are probably the most frequently collected data for
           sediment evaluation purposes. Sediment in the Columbia River Estuary ranges
           from gravel-sized material to very fine clay. A widely used classification
           system for sediment uses phi units, named after the 23rd letter of the Greek
           alphabet.  Grain size decreases as phi units increase. Phi units are negative
           for grain sizes larger than one millimeter in diameter. Sand is between about
           0.08 millimeters and 5 millimeters in diameter (4 phi and -2 phi,
           approximately). Finer material is silt and clay. Coarser material is gravel.
           Sediment grain size data are occasionally presented graphically using the
           graphic format shown in Figure 2.

           More than 2,000 sediment samples from the Columbia River Estuary collected
           during different times of the year and at depths ranging from the intertidal
           zone to over 100 feet below MLLW were examined by the Columbia River Estuary
           Data Development Program in 1982. Mean grain sizes ranged from -1.12 phi
           (about 2.2 mm, or very fine gravel) to 8.17 phi (about 0.0035 mm, or coarse
           clay). The average of the mean grain sizes was about 2.5 phi (about 0.18 mm,
           or fine sand).

....

           Total organic carbon (TOC) is a measure of organic compounds (that is,
           compounds containing carbon) in a sediment sample. It is usually reported as
           milligrams per gram dry weight (mg/g) or as parts per thousand (ppt). Sediment
           analysis sometimes requires that the concentration of a compound in sediment be
           normalized to the total organic carbon content. Total organic carbon content
           in Columbia River Estuary sediment may exceed 100 mg/g in some cases, but
           probably averages between 10 and 20 mg/g. Sediment samples to be analyzed for
           total organic carbon content should be frozen until analysis. Only 25 grams of
           sediment per sample are needed. Sediment to be tested for total organic carbon
           may be stored in either glass or polyethylene containers. Collection methods
           are similar to those described for grain size analysis. Samples may be stored
           for up to six months frozen.


it continues with procedures for other chemicals, pollutants, oxygen etc.


        Metals analysis focuses on metals listed by the EPA as priority
        pollutants. Up to 15 different metals are often targeted for analysis in
        Columbia River-Estuary sediment. They are:

               arsenic                                     antimony
               cadmium                                  beryllium
               chromium                                 iron
               copper                                      manganese
               lead                                         nickel
               mercury                                   selenium
               zinc                                         silver
                                                              tin


          The most frequently measured of these are in the left-hand column, above,
          but those on the right are targeted for analysis in some circumstances. All
          are described in the following paragraphs. Detection limits for metals are
          also mentioned in each paragraph. These are the lowest concentrations of each
          metal that can be reliably detected using standard analytical procedures.

   ...


             The most frequently targeted organic compounds in Columbia River sediment
             are:


                  Aldrin                                    Naphthalene
                  Chlordane                              Acenaphthylene
                  DDT                                      Fluorene
                  DDD                                      Phenanthrene
                  DDE                                      Anthracene
                  Methoxychlor                          Methylnaphthalene
                  2,4-D (Silvex)                       Fluoranthene
                  Heptachlor                            Pyrene -                                  I
                  Acenaphthene                       Benzo(a)anthracene
                  Phenanthrene                       Chrysene
                  PCBs                                    Benzofluoranthenes
                                                            Benzo(a)pyrene
                                                            Indeno(1,2,3-c,d)pyrene
                                                            Dibenzo(a,h)anthracene
                                                            Benzo(g,h,i)perylene
                                                            1,3-Dichlorobenzene
                                                            1,4-Dichlorobenzene
                                                            1,2-Dichlorobenzene
                                                            1,2,4-Trichlorobenzene
                                                            Hexachlorobenzene
                                                            Dimethyl phthalate
                                                            Diethyl phthalate
                                                            Di-n-butyl phthalate
                                                            Butyl benzyl phthalate
                                                            Bis(2-ethylhexyl)phthalate
                                                            Di-n-octyl phthalate
                                                            Phenol
                                                            2 Methylphenol
                                                            4 Methylphenol
                                                            2,4-Dimethylphenol
                                                            Pentachlorophenol
                                                            Benzyl alcohol
                                                            Benzoic acid
                                                            Dibenzofuran
                                                            Hexachloroethane
                                                            Hexachlorobutadiene
                                                            N-Nitrosodiphenylamine
                                                            Trichloroethene
                                                            Tetrachloroethene
                                                            Ethylbenzene
                                                            Total xylene
                                                            Dieldrin

good report -
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Offline georger

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6408 on: September 07, 2021, 11:58:58 PM »
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Well, this is something that I have found peculiar among the money research. That is, why has no one taken the environment of the money bag into account?

Suppose the money bag was tightly secured with the money similarly tightly packed inside. Suppose the bag sat on the ground exposed to the elements for six winter months. What about after 7 years?  What would the condition of the money be then? Suppose that money bag then entered the water - tightly secured. Would diatoms be able to penetrate the money packets packed inside? While the individual money packets fan out and sink after a period of time, would the tightly packed money bag behave similarly? Would it sink or float?

I don't know the answers to these questions, and frankly, I don't recall them ever being asked before. The general assumption seems to be that the three money packets arrived separately and individually on Tena Bar, but how would the arrival and condition of the money be different if they were secured inside and tightly packed in the money bag?

I don't presume to know the answer to these questions, but boy howdy, would I like to...

Dont forget Cooper repacked the money, perhaps several times. It is impossible to know HOW he repacked it. So you are chasing an unknowable...
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Offline snowmman

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6409 on: September 08, 2021, 12:17:52 AM »
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Dont forget Cooper repacked the money, perhaps several times. It is impossible to know HOW he repacked it. So you are chasing an unknowable...

yes good point..if indeed he tried packing it in a canopy first.
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Offline georger

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6410 on: September 08, 2021, 12:36:01 AM »
FJ puts up so many roadblocks its damned near impossible to navigate them all!

1. "The key to the diatoms is that there were no winter ones, only spring diatoms..  That means the money went into and was exposed to the river in a spring between 72-79 and became buried relatively soon."

A: Wrong. Kaye's chart clearly lists other seasonal diatoms found, not just Spring. Tom lists them! FJ is ignoring them for the sake of his argument.  See Kaye's chart below - 

B: There are no fully formed Asterionella in any of Kaye's photos - he did not find fully formed living diatoms, just skeletons of dead ones. Since when do corpses and parts and pieces of dead diatoms establish that the money was ever in the presence of LIVING ASTERIONELLA during the Spring only! Duhhhhhh. Remember what Tom has found are skeletons of diatoms, not living diatoms! Moreover Tom states he found summer and Fall diatoms, Cyclotella for one, not just Spring diatoms. Tom's chart lists Cyclotella as a Sept-April diatom. Last time I looked Sept-April spans the winter months! Something is wrong. SEE TOMS CHART!!! Maybe Tom made a mistake on his chart? Tom give no bloom date for two of his diatoms found? Apparently FJ knows these are not winter diatoms. Flyjack should correct Tom's work for him!

2. Tom Kaye says:  "there are diatom's that live in the winter and if it went in the water in the winter we would see those diatom's and we don't see them"  Tom Kaye "

A: Where did  "went in the water in the winter" come from? Is this a new Propeller theory? Went in the water = went in the river? Diatom exposure can only happen by going into the Columbia River? The presence of diatoms only proves the money was EXPOSED to water bearing diatoms! That can happen without ever having been in the Columbia river at all. There are other permutations to consider. The key word is EXPOSURE VS WENT INTO WATER/RIVER. There is a fundamental difference between the two.

Lets leave it at that. This is like trying to pin a ribbon on a running donkey. 
 
« Last Edit: September 08, 2021, 12:37:04 AM by georger »
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Offline georger

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6411 on: September 08, 2021, 12:38:30 AM »
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Dont forget Cooper repacked the money, perhaps several times. It is impossible to know HOW he repacked it. So you are chasing an unknowable...

yes good point..if indeed he tried packing it in a canopy first.

and then back into the bank bag tied around and around the neck? who knows     :rofl:
« Last Edit: September 08, 2021, 12:39:06 AM by georger »
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Offline georger

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6412 on: September 08, 2021, 12:53:56 AM »
Let me post Tom's chart again - this imho is vital. It reports what Tom found.

It lists the genera found and their bloom seasons (except for two cases). Anyone can plug these diatom names into Google and find their bloom seasons for different parts of the world. At least two types Tom found are also found in soil in addition to water.

Asterionella may be a special case because of morphology (geometry when fully developed). Its fully developed form is a very delicate assemblage (see a 3d model of it) prone to dismemberment even by wave action. This may account for why Tom only found its dis articulated parts. Are the asterionella Tom found and the other genera all from the same year? I hope so because everyone is assuming they are!  ;)   
« Last Edit: September 08, 2021, 12:58:30 AM by georger »
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Offline snowmman

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6413 on: September 08, 2021, 01:24:32 AM »

I just don't think diatoms are going to do much for advancing the cooper case.

People want something to hang their hat on, but there just isn't much.
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Offline georger

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6414 on: September 08, 2021, 04:12:14 PM »
Lets review what the seasons are, for FLYJACK ! Two types in general use - astronomical vs meteorological. The atsro seasons are:

What are the four seasons and in which month of the year do they occur?
•  Winter – December, January and February. Winter solstice-vernal equinox
•  Spring – March, April and May. Vernal eq to summer solstice
•  Summer – June, July and August. Summer sol to autumnal eq
•  Autumn – September, October and November. Autumnal eq to winter solstice

Quotes from Tom Kaye. (a) "This suggests bill was immersed during the summer Asterionella bloom, and did not extend into later seasons "  (b) exposure was in Early summer during May and June.  (c)  There is however a very large bloom of Asterionella in early summer during the months of May and June…  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Readers have two choices. Get your Tom Kaye news from FLYJACK ,,,,, or get it directly from Tom Kate at: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

People need to focus on what TOM KAYE is saying and not on what FLYJACK SAYS TOM KAYE IS SAYING! Its as simple as that. This is ridiculous.  :nono:
« Last Edit: September 08, 2021, 04:13:23 PM by georger »
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Offline Chaucer

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6415 on: September 08, 2021, 04:37:39 PM »
In general, I would encourage everyone to do their own research of the evidence and come to their own conclusions rather than rely on internet "experts" who are often not only wrong, but have agendas to push.
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Offline Chaucer

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6416 on: September 08, 2021, 05:23:16 PM »
While we know from Tom's research that a packet of money won't float for very long, has anyone confirmed with the bank bag filled with money and tightly secured would float?

I know that there are a lot of "unknowables" such as the configuration of the money inside the bag, etc., but in general, would a canvas bank bag fill with $20 bills like the one Cooper received, float in fresh water?
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Offline georger

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6417 on: September 08, 2021, 05:36:37 PM »
Dredging material removed at these coords ...  answering several inquiries:

The dredge material deposited at the site where the money was located came from the north ‘half of the ship channel, which is 300 feet wide, between river mile marker 96 plus 38 feet and river mile marker 97 plus 17 feet. This material was deposited at two locations on the beach of the FAZIO Brothers’ Farm between August 19 through the 25th, 1974, ‘and consisted of 91,100 cubic yards of fill, and at one other location across the river on the Oregon side.
 
« Last Edit: September 08, 2021, 05:38:45 PM by georger »
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Offline dudeman17

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6418 on: September 08, 2021, 05:49:53 PM »
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While we know from Tom's research that a packet of money won't float for very long, has anyone confirmed with the bank bag filled with money and tightly secured would float?

I know that there are a lot of "unknowables" such as the configuration of the money inside the bag, etc., but in general, would a canvas bank bag fill with $20 bills like the one Cooper received, float in fresh water?

A slightly educated guess based on some familiarity with similar properties of packed parachutes...

I would expect the bag to float for a while due to the air trapped inside. As the air was replaced with water, I would expect it to lose buoyancy and gain sink. How fast that would happen would depend on the porosity of the bag material, that is, how fast it let air out and water in, coupled with how securely the open end was tied shut. I would expect it to be a matter of minutes.
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Offline Chaucer

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6419 on: September 08, 2021, 06:03:17 PM »
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While we know from Tom's research that a packet of money won't float for very long, has anyone confirmed with the bank bag filled with money and tightly secured would float?

I know that there are a lot of "unknowables" such as the configuration of the money inside the bag, etc., but in general, would a canvas bank bag fill with $20 bills like the one Cooper received, float in fresh water?

A slightly educated guess based on some familiarity with similar properties of packed parachutes...

I would expect the bag to float for a while due to the air trapped inside. As the air was replaced with water, I would expect it to lose buoyancy and gain sink. How fast that would happen would depend on the porosity of the bag material, that is, how fast it let air out and water in, coupled with how securely the open end was tied shut. I would expect it to be a matter of minutes.
Yeah I asked a scientist friend of mine and gave him some general parameters of the size, weight, volume, and density of the bag and he stated quite simply that it would float. Of course, as I stated before, there are other variables we don't know. I live in South Florida and I frequently hear stories of drugs and money bags found floating out to sea.
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