Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find  (Read 1521888 times)

Offline snowmman

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6390 on: August 20, 2021, 09:09:55 PM »
I'm so excited right now at being able to share a bill that makes grown men weep in Cooper World.

Not the holy grail, but a nice substitute.

A 1950C star note. Now you may ask "Why not a 1934 bill? That's older."

But I don't believe there were any 1934 star notes. (at least, yet.)

There is only one cooper star note I've seen in my analysis so far, outside of 1963A and 1969...and it's a 1950C star note
Behold in all it's glory, the 1950C Cooper star note serial:

L13749715* 1950C

attached a screenshot showing it in the fbi file.

But wait. Could snowmman find a 1950C star note (albeit not a cooper note)

Yes! Enjoy! (front and back attached of G09769469* 1950C  .. estimated value $159)


EDIT: Cooper loved the 1950C. He said because it didn't yet say "In God We Trust" . The pagan!

« Last Edit: August 20, 2021, 09:18:20 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6391 on: September 07, 2021, 03:36:54 PM »
As usual, FJ has flown off the deep end using Kaye's diatom muse. You can find Tom's article here - please read it before leaping! You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login   

FJ claims: "The key to the diatoms is that there were no winter ones, only spring diatoms.. That means the money went into and was exposed to the river in a spring between 72-79 and became buried relatively soon."

The ACTUAL FACTS ARE: Tom identified 7 diatom genera which run the gambit in bloom cycles. FLYJACK apparently missed Tom's chart listing genera found and bloom cycles for each genera found.

What is true is: the vast majority of diatoms Tom found were of a single genera *asterionella which peaks May-June, however Tom also found Fragaria which peaks in September. And Tom found several other 'toms which peak Sept-April, and several species which are winter 'toms. So FJ is flat out lying or blind when he says:  only spring diatoms were found!

When FJ says: "The key to the diatoms is that there were no winter ones, only spring diatoms" he is plain wrong and distorting what Tom's work shows. Keep in mind we have no dates for any of these diatoms as to year! With every distortion that Cooper pundits offer or shove down our throats, we are driven deeper into the abyss which has become the DB Cooper story.

Read Tom's work. It speaks or itself.   
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6392 on: September 07, 2021, 03:45:07 PM »
"B) 20 dollar bill from the Cooper hijacking badly degraded around the edges. Blue boxes mark areas sampled for investigation. Red “+” marks location of Fragilaria diatom."

Thus, due to the technique Tom used, he did not even search for diatoms in the more central area of the bill. Were diatoms constrained to the edges of the bill only - we dont know!

This opens the door to some pundit claiming: 'diatoms were only found at the edges of the Cooper bills"!   :(

« Last Edit: September 07, 2021, 03:48:59 PM by georger »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6393 on: September 07, 2021, 03:48:01 PM »
Tom wants to imply that his control experiments cover all possible cases of diatoms to cooper bills in various environments and configurations, but there are lots of other configurations

money-bag-protected especially.

So instead of claiming a bunch of negatives, all he can really say, was that at some time Cooper bills were exposed to the diatoms he found, at some point (unknown when)

I think anything beyond that is speculative.
For instance, they may have been exposed to other diatoms, that didn't "stick" for some reason. Like money bag or ??? etc.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2021, 03:51:17 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6394 on: September 07, 2021, 03:50:09 PM »
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Tom wants to imply that his control experiments cover all possible cases of diatoms to cooper bills in various environments and configurations, but there are lots of other configurations

money-bag-protected especially.

So instead of claimed a bunch of negatives, all he can really say, was that at some time Cooper bills were exposed to the diatoms he found, at some point (unknown when)

I think anything beyond that is speculative.
For instance, they may have been exposed to other diatoms, that didn't "stick" for some reason. Like money bag or ??? etc.

Agree... moreover Tom found no diatoms at all on the three previous bills he examined. Why ? 
« Last Edit: September 07, 2021, 03:50:35 PM by georger »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6395 on: September 07, 2021, 03:50:40 PM »
I'd like to see experiments that try to create a bill in the condition of the found Ingram bills.

It'd be interesting to know the minimal time in optimum conditions (whatever they are) to create such a state.

Is the minimum 1 year, 2 years or ??

and what is the optimal environment to create that condition?
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6396 on: September 07, 2021, 03:52:55 PM »
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I'd like to see experiments that try to create a bill in the condition of the found Ingram bills.

It'd be interesting to know the minimal time in optimum conditions (whatever they are) to create such a state.

Is the minimum 1 year, 2 years or ??

and what is the optimal environment to create that condition?

7 fully formed genera identified but no fully formed asterionella (only parts!). That is saying something ... ?   I dont know - maybe once dried asterionella can only show itself as broken stems?
« Last Edit: September 07, 2021, 03:54:31 PM by georger »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6397 on: September 07, 2021, 03:57:55 PM »
looking at that image overlay of found bill vs full bill that Tom Kaye did (georger post above)

got me wondering:

the bill is halfway decayed from the edges. Would the bill have continued decaying all the way to the middle if it was left where it was found?

I suspect not. I think the decay needed other "stuff" to get that initial decay. Note the decay basically stopped after it was removed from the find location.

Tom implies his experiments over 33 months, showed an aerobic environment was needed. That's a guess.
I think no one has nailed down the fungi/microorganisms, and/or water action and/or sun/atmosphere action needed to create the state of the found bills. And the minimum time needed.
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6398 on: September 07, 2021, 04:00:03 PM »
that tom kaye bill seems to display what I would call "foxing" ..the brown staining.

that could also have a minimum time to create.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6399 on: September 07, 2021, 04:14:29 PM »
My guess is spidery asterionella formosa does not survive being dried and handled. Tom's examples look like a bunch of disarticulated 'bones'! (funny) but the arms look fully developed ... am guessing these delicate forms simply cant take handling/compression, and they collapse to produce the parts Tom found. Its been 50 years with lots of handling!

I also find it telling the FBI Lab didnt identify or note any diatoms on the bills - guess they didnt look or care to look...   
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6400 on: September 07, 2021, 04:23:09 PM »
I was wondering about Tom's implication that clay is not part of dredging spoils. He implied it, but it seems speculative..i.e. that the clay layer at Tena Bar was "natural"

"More than 2,000 sediment samples from the Columbia River Estuary collected
 during different times of the year and at depths ranging from the intertidal
 zone to over 100 feet below MLLW were examined by the Columbia River Estuary
 Data Development Program in 1982. Mean grain sizes ranged from -1.12 phi
 (about 2.2 mm, or very fine gravel) to 8.17 phi (about 0.0035 mm, or coarse clay). "


pdf is available here. The pdf has pictures that the text view does not have
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text is here
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COLUMBIA RIVER ESTUARY
DREDGING AND IN-WATER DISPOSAL HANDBOOK


                                         December 1989


         This report describes the regulatory process used for making permit
         decisions about in-water dredged material disposal in the Columbia River
         Estuary. The estuary is defined here as extending from the river mouth
         upstream to approximately river mile 45 (see Map 1). In-water disposal of
         dredged material includes flowlane disposal using a hydraulic dredge, or open
         water disposal using a barge. Local, state and federal agencies are involved
         in the permit process for in-water dredged material disposal.


page 12 of the pdf says

           Grain size information are probably the most frequently collected data for
           sediment evaluation purposes. Sediment in the Columbia River Estuary ranges
           from gravel-sized material to very fine clay. A widely used classification
           system for sediment uses phi units, named after the 23rd letter of the Greek
           alphabet.  Grain size decreases as phi units increase. Phi units are negative
           for grain sizes larger than one millimeter in diameter. Sand is between about
           0.08 millimeters and 5 millimeters in diameter (4 phi and -2 phi,
           approximately). Finer material is silt and clay. Coarser material is gravel.
           Sediment grain size data are occasionally presented graphically using the
           graphic format shown in Figure 2.

           More than 2,000 sediment samples from the Columbia River Estuary collected
           during different times of the year and at depths ranging from the intertidal
           zone to over 100 feet below MLLW were examined by the Columbia River Estuary
           Data Development Program in 1982. Mean grain sizes ranged from -1.12 phi
           (about 2.2 mm, or very fine gravel) to 8.17 phi (about 0.0035 mm, or coarse
           clay). The average of the mean grain sizes was about 2.5 phi (about 0.18 mm,
           or fine sand).

....

           Total organic carbon (TOC) is a measure of organic compounds (that is,
           compounds containing carbon) in a sediment sample. It is usually reported as
           milligrams per gram dry weight (mg/g) or as parts per thousand (ppt). Sediment
           analysis sometimes requires that the concentration of a compound in sediment be
           normalized to the total organic carbon content. Total organic carbon content
           in Columbia River Estuary sediment may exceed 100 mg/g in some cases, but
           probably averages between 10 and 20 mg/g. Sediment samples to be analyzed for
           total organic carbon content should be frozen until analysis. Only 25 grams of
           sediment per sample are needed. Sediment to be tested for total organic carbon
           may be stored in either glass or polyethylene containers. Collection methods
           are similar to those described for grain size analysis. Samples may be stored
           for up to six months frozen.


it continues with procedures for other chemicals, pollutants, oxygen etc.


        Metals analysis focuses on metals listed by the EPA as priority
        pollutants. Up to 15 different metals are often targeted for analysis in
        Columbia River-Estuary sediment. They are:

               arsenic                                     antimony
               cadmium                                  beryllium
               chromium                                 iron
               copper                                      manganese
               lead                                         nickel
               mercury                                   selenium
               zinc                                         silver
                                                              tin


          The most frequently measured of these are in the left-hand column, above,
          but those on the right are targeted for analysis in some circumstances. All
          are described in the following paragraphs. Detection limits for metals are
          also mentioned in each paragraph. These are the lowest concentrations of each
          metal that can be reliably detected using standard analytical procedures.

   ...


             The most frequently targeted organic compounds in Columbia River sediment
             are:


                  Aldrin                                    Naphthalene
                  Chlordane                              Acenaphthylene
                  DDT                                      Fluorene
                  DDD                                      Phenanthrene
                  DDE                                      Anthracene
                  Methoxychlor                          Methylnaphthalene
                  2,4-D (Silvex)                       Fluoranthene
                  Heptachlor                            Pyrene -                                  I
                  Acenaphthene                       Benzo(a)anthracene
                  Phenanthrene                       Chrysene
                  PCBs                                    Benzofluoranthenes
                                                            Benzo(a)pyrene
                                                            Indeno(1,2,3-c,d)pyrene
                                                            Dibenzo(a,h)anthracene
                                                            Benzo(g,h,i)perylene
                                                            1,3-Dichlorobenzene
                                                            1,4-Dichlorobenzene
                                                            1,2-Dichlorobenzene
                                                            1,2,4-Trichlorobenzene
                                                            Hexachlorobenzene
                                                            Dimethyl phthalate
                                                            Diethyl phthalate
                                                            Di-n-butyl phthalate
                                                            Butyl benzyl phthalate
                                                            Bis(2-ethylhexyl)phthalate
                                                            Di-n-octyl phthalate
                                                            Phenol
                                                            2 Methylphenol
                                                            4 Methylphenol
                                                            2,4-Dimethylphenol
                                                            Pentachlorophenol
                                                            Benzyl alcohol
                                                            Benzoic acid
                                                            Dibenzofuran
                                                            Hexachloroethane
                                                            Hexachlorobutadiene
                                                            N-Nitrosodiphenylamine
                                                            Trichloroethene
                                                            Tetrachloroethene
                                                            Ethylbenzene
                                                            Total xylene
                                                            Dieldrin
« Last Edit: September 07, 2021, 04:28:06 PM by snowmman »
 
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Offline Chaucer

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6401 on: September 07, 2021, 05:02:04 PM »
Well, this is something that I have found peculiar among the money research. That is, why has no one taken the environment of the money bag into account?

Suppose the money bag was tightly secured with the money similarly tightly packed inside. Suppose the bag sat on the ground exposed to the elements for six winter months. What about after 7 years?  What would the condition of the money be then? Suppose that money bag then entered the water - tightly secured. Would diatoms be able to penetrate the money packets packed inside? While the individual money packets fan out and sink after a period of time, would the tightly packed money bag behave similarly? Would it sink or float?

I don't know the answers to these questions, and frankly, I don't recall them ever being asked before. The general assumption seems to be that the three money packets arrived separately and individually on Tena Bar, but how would the arrival and condition of the money be different if they were secured inside and tightly packed in the money bag?

I don't presume to know the answer to these questions, but boy howdy, would I like to...
“Completely unhinged”
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6402 on: September 07, 2021, 06:00:55 PM »
US Army did investigations into the effects of fungi when they were wondering why their cotton tents and fatigues rotted away.

I believe the money bag was cotton? or ??
us currency is 75% cotton, 25% linen. but probably more resistant to rot than the cotton bag?

the cotton bag may have decayed at a higher rate than the bills.
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6403 on: September 07, 2021, 06:04:15 PM »
Quote
The general assumption seems to be that the three money packets arrived separately and individually on Tena Bar

I don't think there is a 'general assumption" on how the 3 packets arrived there in one place.
it's not discussed much because almost any theory is possible.

Random shit happens.

Maybe a whole bag arrived there, and the rest of the bills (and bag) were removed by some force.
just because 3 are there, doesn't mean you only talk about how 3 may have arrived.
talk about how the rest disappeared..that's just as valid.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2021, 06:05:36 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6404 on: September 07, 2021, 06:11:15 PM »
Was just thinking of something:

assuming rubber band fragments is real.

It seems like the rubber band preservation would have to happen simultaneously with bill decomposition.
(they could be independent but overall it seems like one can analyze the shared environment for both)

if so, it would like you'd need a anaerobic environment for rubber preservation. So then you'd probably guess that anaerobic microorganisms were responsible for the bill decomposition (assuming that needs at least a year to happen...during which time you need to preserve the rubber bands somewhat)

it just doesn't seem like having both exposed to oxygen for a long time (or uv) would lead to what we're seeing?