Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find  (Read 1531254 times)

Offline snowmman

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6315 on: August 17, 2021, 12:22:03 PM »
That court case provides some additional detail that aligns with info from other sources about how the money moved on it's way to Cooper. It doesn't mention any reshuffling of the money. Note that it was very detailed about who touched the money, when. It's interesting it doesn't mention details from the vault to any place it was repackaged, if indeed that happpened:
(*832 and *833 are maybe links to other references? not sure yet)

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Plaintiff's Seattle ground personnel were notified of the hijacking and, further, received *833 home office authorization to procure the money and parachutes demanded by Cooper. In order to obtain the $200,000 in cash, arrangements were made with Seattle First National Bank, through its airport branch.

The money was taken from the vault of the bank's downtown facility, and transported to the airport by bank personnel and the Seattle police. The release of cash funds after normal banking hours resulted in a debit to plaintiff's account which was repaid by a transfer credit on the next banking day.

Mr. William C. Grinnell, an officer of Seattle First National Bank, arrived at the Seattle airport at approximately 5 p. m. with the money. He first proceeded to the airport branch of the bank to pick up the branch manager, who then accompanied Mr. Grinnell to plaintiff's air freight terminal, a "premises" of plaintiff insured within the meaning of the subject insurance policy.

An authorized official of plaintiff gave a receipt for the $200,000 while it was inside the terminal. Mr. Grinnell transferred possession of the $200,000 to Captain Elwood M. Lee, a Northwest official designated to transport the money to the hijacked airplane, which had landed at the Seattle airport and was parked at the end of a runway.

Captain Lee proceeded to the airplane in an automobile and delivered the money to Stewardess Tina Larson, who carried the money into the airplane and surrendered direct physical custody of it to the hijacker.

Upon receipt thereof, Cooper allowed the passengers to leave the airplane. Stewardess Larson also delivered the parachutes and other items to Cooper, who was still in the rear cabin of the aircraft. At that time, he allowed two other stewardesses to leave the airplane. Cooper, Stewardess Larson, and the cockpit crew of three men remained on board.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2021, 12:23:21 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6316 on: August 17, 2021, 01:44:51 PM »
Did WSHM do any work on the money story? Did they say how the money was prepared for Cooper?

Still waiting for Cooper Royalty with info to speak! 
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6317 on: August 17, 2021, 01:50:15 PM »
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Did WSHM do any work on the money story? Did they say how the money was prepared for Cooper?

Still waiting for Cooper Royalty with info to speak!

Yeah, once we mentally review all the things that don't make sense about all the details of the money, from bank to being found on the Columbia, it sure sounds complicated.

There's really, literally, no single fact in that chain of events that everyone agrees on.

We can't even agree whether Cooper got 9998 bills or 10000 bills!
« Last Edit: August 17, 2021, 02:07:43 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6318 on: August 17, 2021, 02:36:49 PM »
Here's a random new speculation that could be tested by science.

I've always assumed that the holes in the bills found on Tena Bar, were from insects or bacteria or something like that.
If you look at this picture from the ha.com auction closely, you can see on the left, that there are two circular pieces of currency that are attached to this bill..i.e. they are the removed donut holes, basically, from the currency that was next to this one.

(EDIT: on second viewing, they could be just the start of a hole formation..notice an open circle around one. But there is a removed donut hole on the right side of the bill that seems to be from "someplace else")

You can also see that on the right side of the bill.

SO: what I'm wondering..is if the bill disintegration can happen with little dots coming out, and those dots either wash away or stick to other bills.

the dots may be a weaker section of the bill, due to chemicals or something on the bill...or just random variation in the material of the bill.

the main point: is that the holes aren't necessarily bacterial or insect, and may say nothing about exposure of the bills. It may be a typical decomposition behavior of this currency, maybe when exposed to water, or other chemical effect.

The holes have never been investigated, so it's a valid question. The partial holes at the edges seem to be related to the more fully formed interior holes. So it all may be typical decomposition in water, for this currency.


This bill was signed by an FBI agent (initials). So interestingly the state of the bill and any attached fragments was stable enough, such that manipulation the agent to sign it, still left the fragments as shown in the picture???

There's no evidence of silver nitrate. So I'm not sure why the FBI agent initialled some bills, and not some other bills.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2021, 06:52:10 PM by snowmman »
 
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Offline snowmman

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6319 on: August 17, 2021, 03:42:55 PM »
I've discovered something interesting

1) The FBI mistyped a serial in the serial list.
2) There is at least one consecutive serial non-star note serial pair

fbi file 55 page 162
3rd grouping of chars for serial
row 53 and 54 (there are 60 rows, so can count up from the bottom)

The typing on the FBI page is clearly
G03 072 38CB 69
G03 072 381B 69

the 38CB is not legal for a serial. Instead, it should be 380B
I checked this at the check six website. He agrees that 380B is correct
I used these there, both checked out okay. So checksix must have made a similar determination.
G03072380B 69
G03072381B 69

If you zoom into the attached image, you can see the 38CB clearly. It's near the bottom, 3rd grouping.
The attachment is a png. lossless. The fbi pdf only had 72dpi, but you can clearly see the C if you zoom in enough.
The C has a clear serif. It is not a 0 with the right side missing from the copy.
There are nearby 0's you can look at to compare. There are no other C's on that page, but there are are C's on other pages (like for instance the 50C series year cases)


it would be nice if someone reviewed, this and agreed with my two assessments:
1) The FBI mistyped at least one serial
2) There is at least one consecutive non-star note serial pair in the ransom list.

consecutive serials, whether star or non-star, are interesting because it gives some clues about how the bank got the bills. And then how the bills were randomized, if some of them were non-random to start with, at some point in time.

EDIT: you may have to download the file, and click on it to use a different viewing tool, that allows you to zoom more than the default viewer this website causes. You should use a tool that allows you to zoom as much as you want.

EDIT: another theory would be that the C was a mistype, and that assuming it's supposed to be a 0 is incorrect, because it's unlikely there were non-star consecutive serial numbers and that one "just happened" to be on the one with consecutive serials.

SO: it would mean there is a serial with one digit, that could be 0, 2-9
i.e. it could be any of 9 other serials (1 is already taken)

that's the more likely explanation here. (with the fbi sorting the mistyped C before 1 in this case)
« Last Edit: August 17, 2021, 05:11:41 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6320 on: August 17, 2021, 06:10:53 PM »
Did the FBI keep all the "top" bills?

Flyjack identified these serial numbers from the green table photo (plastic covered bills, day of press event)

I don't think we have these bills as ha.com pictures. They could be FBI held, insurance company held, or Ingram held.
I've not double checked on the ha.com question. These could be the interesting bills for rubber band analysis.

L53307222A
L20452751A
H27412938A
J02442844A
L30706882B
L20848242A
I02442844A
L35399523B

EDIT: I plugged them into the ha.com search engine...only 1 hit (a fragment)

L35399523B
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« Last Edit: August 17, 2021, 06:48:30 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline dudeman17

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6321 on: August 17, 2021, 06:11:56 PM »
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Didn’t the FBI have to break up the bundles in order to record the serial numbers? How would they have recorded the serial numbers if the money went straight from the vault to the plane?


Weren't the serial numbers already pre-recorded from when the bank first put the 'emergency stash' together, before Cooper even happened?
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6322 on: August 17, 2021, 06:16:23 PM »
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Didn’t the FBI have to break up the bundles in order to record the serial numbers? How would they have recorded the serial numbers if the money went straight from the vault to the plane?


Weren't the serial numbers already pre-recorded from when the bank first put the 'emergency stash' together, before Cooper even happened?

yup. and that was tracked using the start/end pairs from the real packets, as the fbi memos talk about the 15 or 16 start/end pairs that had to be used to prune the list, because they weren't given to cooper.

I've always assumed that those bundles were 100 note bundles, as were the packets that cooper did get, that had start/end pairs noted that were back-traced to the microfiche, for creating the hoover list.

but, I suppose someone could argue the start/end pairs were random numbers of notes. I don't think so. I think they were strapped 100 note packets, for each start/end pair, whether given to cooper or not.

if someone has a different idea, explain it. It would be very complicated, I think.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2021, 06:22:24 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6323 on: August 17, 2021, 06:18:49 PM »
It's my understanding that the serial numbers of all of the ransom bills - all $250K - were pre-recorded. However, there is some documentation that I have seen saying the FBI wanted the stacks of the bills to "look random" as if they were hastily put together at the last minute. Apparently, they wanted to fool Cooper into thinking that they hadn't been counted.
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6324 on: August 17, 2021, 06:24:21 PM »
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It's my understanding that the serial numbers of all of the ransom bills - all $250K - were pre-recorded. However, there is some documentation that I have seen saying the FBI wanted the stacks of the bills to "look random" as if they were hastily put together at the last minute. Apparently, they wanted to fool Cooper into thinking that they hadn't been counted.

yes Carr pushed that line. But if you break it down, it's not clear how it happened, or when.
Also, if Tena saw bank straps..the randomization could have been rubber banding of 2-6 packets per bundle.
There's no documentation of removal of currency straps.
Now if you want to believe there were no currency straps in the bank vault, just rubber bands, then they were already random, so no need to re-randomize.

basically none of the stories make sense.
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6325 on: August 17, 2021, 07:47:28 PM »
Here is another FBI serial list snapshot that is subject to interpretation

The 4th serial down. The 3rd col has a unknown 3rd char.
Note that it looks different than the 6 two rows above. So it dosn't seem to be a six
and it also doesn't seem to be an 8

it seems to be off-center..shifted right a bit.
I was matching it against 2 different Euro currency symbols, but that's not correct.
I wonder if this was a typo on whatever typewriter or keypunch the fbi was using.

What's your opinion on the 4th serial ??
K11 386 35?A 69

check six doesn't pass it if a 6
check six does pass it if a 8
« Last Edit: August 17, 2021, 07:48:04 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6326 on: August 17, 2021, 10:02:21 PM »
100% it's an 8
« Last Edit: August 17, 2021, 10:03:05 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6327 on: August 18, 2021, 02:42:26 AM »
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100% it's an 8

yeah, interesting with mechanical printers and typing back then, you could easily get something where a character is misspaced and "half-printed"

geez, compared to today, it's like looking at something someone painted on a cave wall and trying to decipher the meaning.
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6328 on: August 18, 2021, 01:17:34 PM »
Found first pair of non-star consecutive serials, that are not an obvious typo like the C case

I am using a naming convention for the serials.

The convention always references fbi file 55
I have 3 bits of info, "page row group", as an addendum, where group is A, B, C, D, or E, depending on which of the 5 groups of serials per row it is. A->E is left to right.
The sort order on a FBI page is top to bottom each group, not going to the next group until you hit bottom on the previous group.

Until the last page, there are 60 rows and 5 groups on every page.


The consecutive serials and their location:
G50864043A 1969  163 12 C
G50864044A 1969  163 13 C

or as shown  the FBI groupings

G50 864 043A 69
G50 864 044A 69 

screenshot attached showing the serials

I have a number of methods for validating the serials now, in terms of consistency. I also can automated check them at the checksix site, although I got blocked when I was checking too many too fast! but if I check slower it's okay.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2021, 01:19:23 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6329 on: August 18, 2021, 01:43:36 PM »
The biggest single collector of DB Cooper bills is Ethan Thomaston from Southern Coin & Collectibles in Hoover, Alabama

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from 2018 article:
Thomaston’s five-year purchasing history acquiring many of the notes began when a ransom note he purchased from another dealer and put on his website triggered a phone call from Ingram’s father asking if he wanted to buy additional notes.

Pics of his display collection attached. Apparently in his store and sometimes brought to collectors conventions?