Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find  (Read 1260921 times)

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6285 on: August 16, 2021, 11:25:59 PM »
Why do rubber bands crumble?
QUESTION: What causes rubber bands to dry out and lose their elasticity? ANSWER: Rubber is a polymer; polymers are long chains of molecules connected together, much like long pieces of spaghetti. ... Ultraviolet light affects those chains and breaks them down, causing the rubber to dry, crack and crumble

One has to wonder how long the bills were banded in the vault...
« Last Edit: August 16, 2021, 11:27:25 PM by Shutter »
 
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Offline snowmman

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6286 on: August 16, 2021, 11:33:28 PM »
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Why do rubber bands crumble?
QUESTION: What causes rubber bands to dry out and lose their elasticity? ANSWER: Rubber is a polymer; polymers are long chains of molecules connected together, much like long pieces of spaghetti. ... Ultraviolet light affects those chains and breaks them down, causing the rubber to dry, crack and crumble

One has to wonder how long the bills were banded in the vault...

There's no evidence the bills were banded in the vault, is there?
Where did you come up with that?
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6287 on: August 16, 2021, 11:33:49 PM »
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Just did a quick look at the famous "FBI bills on green table covered by plastic" after the Ingrams notified FBI and the FBI did a press event.

I notice no significant darkening of the top bills displayed.

Possibly some top bills were washed down the sink.

If anything, the lack of significant darkening in this pic is interesting.

Yes the 3 bundles have been separated in this pic, so you can decide what's the original "top of 3 bundles"

Has that been explained? Are there "dark" ha.com pics that people use as a reference for non-uniform darkening of the found bills?

Tom tracked the silver nitrate darkening of some bills to the finger printing process used by the FBI on some of the bills. Elemental survey of a darkened bill confirmed. 
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6288 on: August 16, 2021, 11:36:09 PM »
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Just did a quick look at the famous "FBI bills on green table covered by plastic" after the Ingrams notified FBI and the FBI did a press event.

I notice no significant darkening of the top bills displayed.

Possibly some top bills were washed down the sink.

If anything, the lack of significant darkening in this pic is interesting.

Yes the 3 bundles have been separated in this pic, so you can decide what's the original "top of 3 bundles"

Has that been explained? Are there "dark" ha.com pics that people use as a reference for non-uniform darkening of the found bills?

Tom tracked the silver nitrate darkening of some bills to the finger printing process used by the FBI on some of the bills. Elemental survey of a darkened bill confirmed.

agreed. I was saying that darkening is not in question.
EU introduced other darkening as a "fact"
I was saying I wasn't so sure it was a fact.
Then EU said that maybe it was "dirt" that was washed off.
I don't think real dirt would wash off so easily. Maybe sand, but not real dirt.

i've not seen an analysis of this so-called darkening. I'm wondering if EU is throwing "facts" around loosely without analysis. And then they become accepted wisdom, with no backing.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6289 on: August 16, 2021, 11:36:34 PM »
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Why do rubber bands crumble?
QUESTION: What causes rubber bands to dry out and lose their elasticity? ANSWER: Rubber is a polymer; polymers are long chains of molecules connected together, much like long pieces of spaghetti. ... Ultraviolet light affects those chains and breaks them down, causing the rubber to dry, crack and crumble

One has to wonder how long the bills were banded in the vault...

There's no evidence the bills were banded in the vault, is there?
Where did you come up with that?

No. Schreuder said he has seen banded, paper strapped, and no restraints (bills sitting in boxes) on 'bank vault bait money' used by the FBI ...
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6290 on: August 16, 2021, 11:36:42 PM »
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Why do rubber bands crumble?
QUESTION: What causes rubber bands to dry out and lose their elasticity? ANSWER: Rubber is a polymer; polymers are long chains of molecules connected together, much like long pieces of spaghetti. ... Ultraviolet light affects those chains and breaks them down, causing the rubber to dry, crack and crumble

One has to wonder how long the bills were banded in the vault...

There's no evidence the bills were banded in the vault, is there?
Where did you come up with that?

Then they had paper bands on them. they had to be separated somehow..
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6291 on: August 16, 2021, 11:37:36 PM »
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Just did a quick look at the famous "FBI bills on green table covered by plastic" after the Ingrams notified FBI and the FBI did a press event.

I notice no significant darkening of the top bills displayed.

Possibly some top bills were washed down the sink.

If anything, the lack of significant darkening in this pic is interesting.

Yes the 3 bundles have been separated in this pic, so you can decide what's the original "top of 3 bundles"

Has that been explained? Are there "dark" ha.com pics that people use as a reference for non-uniform darkening of the found bills?

Tom tracked the silver nitrate darkening of some bills to the finger printing process used by the FBI on some of the bills. Elemental survey of a darkened bill confirmed.

agreed. I was saying that darkening is not in question.
EU introduced other darkening as a "fact"
I was saying I wasn't so sure it was a fact.
Then EU said that maybe it was "dirt" that was washed off.
I don't think real dirt would wash off so easily. Maybe sand, but not real dirt.

i've not seen an analysis of this so-called darkening. I'm wondering if EU is throwing "facts" around loosely without analysis. And then they become accepted wisdom, with no backing.

I have no knowledge of other darkening ...
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6292 on: August 16, 2021, 11:37:56 PM »
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Why do rubber bands crumble?
QUESTION: What causes rubber bands to dry out and lose their elasticity? ANSWER: Rubber is a polymer; polymers are long chains of molecules connected together, much like long pieces of spaghetti. ... Ultraviolet light affects those chains and breaks them down, causing the rubber to dry, crack and crumble

One has to wonder how long the bills were banded in the vault...

There's no evidence the bills were banded in the vault, is there?
Where did you come up with that?

No. Schreuder said he has seen banded, paper strapped, and no restraints (bills sitting in boxes) on 'bank vault bait money' used by the FBI ...

Okay. I can believe "straps plus bands" in the bank vault.
I find it hard to believe "no straps, just bands" in bank vault.

rubber bands would be known to crumble over time, creating a mess. (loose bills etc? if bands break? then counting is a mess...etc)

the straps aided in counting, since you knew 100 per strapped packet.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2021, 11:39:40 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6293 on: August 16, 2021, 11:39:04 PM »
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Why do rubber bands crumble?
QUESTION: What causes rubber bands to dry out and lose their elasticity? ANSWER: Rubber is a polymer; polymers are long chains of molecules connected together, much like long pieces of spaghetti. ... Ultraviolet light affects those chains and breaks them down, causing the rubber to dry, crack and crumble

One has to wonder how long the bills were banded in the vault...

There's no evidence the bills were banded in the vault, is there?
Where did you come up with that?

Then they had paper bands on them. they had to be separated somehow..

You mean the Seafirst bait bills?  May not apply to all banks the FBI works with. 
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6294 on: August 16, 2021, 11:41:08 PM »
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Why do rubber bands crumble?
QUESTION: What causes rubber bands to dry out and lose their elasticity? ANSWER: Rubber is a polymer; polymers are long chains of molecules connected together, much like long pieces of spaghetti. ... Ultraviolet light affects those chains and breaks them down, causing the rubber to dry, crack and crumble

One has to wonder how long the bills were banded in the vault...

There's no evidence the bills were banded in the vault, is there?
Where did you come up with that?

Then they had paper bands on them. they had to be separated somehow..

You mean the Seafirst bait bills?  May not apply to all banks the FBI works with.

Any questions about "separation" assumes Cooper didn't receive strapped bills.
Since that question is still debatable, there's no reason to assume strapped packets were disassembled before Cooper received them.

disconnect the delivery to Cooper, from theories about the state of the bills on Tena Bar.
Two separate issues.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6295 on: August 16, 2021, 11:41:44 PM »
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Why do rubber bands crumble?
QUESTION: What causes rubber bands to dry out and lose their elasticity? ANSWER: Rubber is a polymer; polymers are long chains of molecules connected together, much like long pieces of spaghetti. ... Ultraviolet light affects those chains and breaks them down, causing the rubber to dry, crack and crumble

One has to wonder how long the bills were banded in the vault...

There's no evidence the bills were banded in the vault, is there?
Where did you come up with that?

No. Schreuder said he has seen banded, paper strapped, and no restraints (bills sitting in boxes) on 'bank vault bait money' used by the FBI ...

Okay. I can believe "straps plus bands" in the bank vault.
I find it hard to believe "no straps, just bands" in bank vault.

rubber bands would be known to crumble over time, creating a mess. (loose bills etc? if bands break? then counting is a mess...etc)

the straps aided in counting, since you knew 100 per strapped packet.

Schreuder worked robbery 10+ years - says he has seen bills in boxes, paper strapped bills, rubber banded bills. At some point bills are put together for a specific case, as was the case for the Cooper ransom.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2021, 11:42:19 PM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6296 on: August 16, 2021, 11:47:25 PM »
It makes more sense that paper bands were on them at the bank. they had to know how much money was in the bundles. rubber bands might have been added after the pulled the money out.

 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6297 on: August 16, 2021, 11:56:13 PM »
When you look at the bills on the table it appears to have cuts where rubber bands could of been. some stacks appear to be bent over on the edges.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6298 on: August 17, 2021, 12:11:12 AM »
Snow posts elsewhere:

"One interesting thing. When the Ingrams washed the bills in the kitchen sink, they obviously caused some of the degraded edges to come off the bills. Hence the rounded appearance.

But, if the "rubber band stuck to bills" theory is correct, then apparently all traces of rubber bands were removed from the bills before the FBI saw them and took photographs? This is an interesting problem.

possible scenarios:
There are crumbling rubber bands, that might fall off on the beach and never make it home.  There is sticky rubber band fragments sticking to bills. But apparently they got washed away before the FBI saw them. There's kind of a "magic bullet" problem here. The rubber bands exist only in memory. Whatever their condition, they left no trace that is visible to us in FBI photographs, the bills the Ingrams kept, or other FBI evidence gathering or reports. The rubber band evidence was apparently totally removed from the scene, or in the kitchen sink."


Its not clear how much of the money the Ingrams washed in the sink or in what manner - or even applied Clorox to, in one report. Some? All? One early report has them picking rubber band fragments off at the kitchen table, if true ? Moreover, we dont know exactly how the Ingrams presented their money in a sandwich bag, when they arrived at the Portland office. Somehow 12 groups were presented for the press to photograph on a table - the photo seen today. The story is the money was packed and sent directly to the lab and the lab conducted further separating, processing, fingerprinting some bills; whatever that was.

The lab presumably separated the bills as best they could for a count. Bills were put in many evidence  folders and photographed. Every time these bills were handled along the way dust and debris resulted. At some point the dust and debris that had collected in folders was placed in one or more plastic boxes, I am told. Tom saw at least one box of bill residue when he was at Seattle. Tom photographed that container and always cites that singe plastic box when the subject of 'fragments' comes up; saying 'this is the only fragments I ever saw'.

When the division of the money occurred at Court years later, Brian says he was given actual original FBI evidence folders with red evidence tape still on them, and in each folder was debris/dust in addition to fragments of bills and whole bills he was given.

I suggested to Brian that all of the debris from his folders should be examined for sand, rubber band fragments, etc. That analysis would have been done but the project fell through. Brian still has his evidence folders presumably still with the debris he mentioned - all of which has forensic value!

I dont recall that Tom ever found any band or sand fragments on his three bills? But, I think its unlikely the Ingram washing process removed all sand and rubber band fragments that was originally on the money. Rubber band fragments could have forensic value if found. 

One reason it is possible for band fragments to still be attached to bills, or bill pieces, is because of the chemistry of rubber bands itself. If those bands were ever warm enough to enter the chemical melt stage, then something like amber, fragments of bands could have stuck to bill threads and could still be attached to some bills. The melt transition stage in rubber band chemistry is not unlike that of amber. Once crystal form and are sticky they tend to stick to their surroundings. Bands in the melt stage are quite sticky an can adhere to anything they touch ... even insects! Spores! Sand grains. ...           

I seriously doubt that the rounded appearance has much to do with with whatever cleaning process the Ingrams used. I think the rounded appearance of the bills is natural weathering (water/decomposition/forces acting on the bills etc.)
     
« Last Edit: August 17, 2021, 12:27:39 AM by georger »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6299 on: August 17, 2021, 12:27:29 AM »
great summary georger.

I will point out:
diatoms have been found on dollar bills.
all sorts of things have been found on the tie.

But: there's been no science looking for rubber band remains on bills?
I guess the theory is that only a top or bottom bill would be analyzable.
And it's unclear what top/bottom bills supposedly had the rubber bands

So the claim is: the rubber bands existed, but there is no science that can be done to prove it?

Yet we believe it.