Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find  (Read 1358155 times)

georger

  • Guest
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #615 on: January 20, 2015, 12:16:08 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I've found several articles with LE using sonar to locate bodies.

One of my close relatives is an expert diver, or used to be ... dives with teams worldwide (when he has time). Ex Army Ranger etc... fully certified. He has contacts who have contacts in OR and WA. I suppose I could ask him about searches ... search history if others have searched for Cooper, etc. In fact way back when, one team member talked to a dive shop owner at Portland who gave him references to salvage companies/teams etc. This dive shop owner remembered having talked to Tosaw years earlier which I thought was interesting. I am quite sure Tosaw's work attracted copy cats, back in the day. Some of those folks would be interesting to talk too ??? It's people like the dive shop owner who can provide contacts etc.... in fact I remember that dive shop owner was interested in the DB Cooper case ...

Here we go again .... more wild geese to chase!  :)   
« Last Edit: January 20, 2015, 12:26:49 AM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1024 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #616 on: January 20, 2015, 12:34:15 AM »
I think it would of been a good idea had it happened a year ago. multiple dredge operations, probably dozens over 4 decades of time. even if it was down there it wouldn't be easy to find a parachute container. that's a lot of water to canvas.

Convince the guy ( name escapes me) who found the Titanic. he can find anything  ;D
 

Offline nmiwrecks

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 387
  • Thanked: 3 times
    • MichiganMysteries.com
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #617 on: January 20, 2015, 08:35:37 AM »
Here is an article and the website of Gene Ralston, who is probably one of the world's leading experts in body search & recovery.  He and his wife have accomplished some amazing things:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
"If you always do what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you’ve always got." - Henry Ford
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1024 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #618 on: January 20, 2015, 09:27:39 AM »
Nice find NMIwrecks.

I haven't read all of them, but this one grabbed my attention.

None of the people on board the ROV deployment vessel were prepared for what was about to be discovered. Indeed the object was a human body, not a bear, but it was readily evident that it was not a recent drowning victim. Although it retained all of the form of a human body, it was in an advanced stage of deterioration. Estimates of the length of time underwater ranged from 15 to more than 20 years.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
 

FLYJACK

  • Guest
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #619 on: January 20, 2015, 09:57:59 AM »
A drowning victim was found after 30 years in BC,, they were looking for a recent victim and found him..

"The B.C. Coroners Service has determined that a body pulled from Francois Lake last month was that of a man who went missing nearly three decades ago.

John Angus Mowat, 33, went missing in July 1984 while fishing on the large lake, which is near the community of Burns Lake in B.C.'s Central Interior.

At the time, his boat was found with a fishing rod and freshly-caught fish in it, but his body was never recovered."

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

 

Robert99

  • Guest
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #620 on: January 20, 2015, 01:51:34 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Here is an article and the website of Gene Ralston, who is probably one of the world's leading experts in body search & recovery.  He and his wife have accomplished some amazing things:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

NMIwrecks, Do you have any experience, or know of anyone who does, using metal detector type equipment in searching for bodies and their personal equipment that have been buried under mud and sand by natural means?

Robert99
 

Offline nmiwrecks

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 387
  • Thanked: 3 times
    • MichiganMysteries.com
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #621 on: January 20, 2015, 05:51:32 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Here is an article and the website of Gene Ralston, who is probably one of the world's leading experts in body search & recovery.  He and his wife have accomplished some amazing things:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

NMIwrecks, Do you have any experience, or know of anyone who does, using metal detector type equipment in searching for bodies and their personal equipment that have been buried under mud and sand by natural means?

Robert99
I think you would have to use a handheld underwater metal detector to look for something as small as briefcase remains or harness buckles.  Again, you would be limited by the range of the diver.  I think their would be too many small metal objects to use a boat towed magnetometer and all those targets would have to be verified by divers. 

The Columbia appears to be about a half mile across in some places and that's a lot of territory to cover.  On the plus side, today's sonar and navigational equipment is far superior to what Tosaw was using.  If we were searching in a lake, which is a somewhat static environment, I would have more confidence, but because the river bottom has evolved over the decades with dredging and erosion, not to mention the vast "search area", chances are small of finding anything relevant to the case. 

I was lucky enough to spend time on Clive Cussler's NUMA Team boat while they were searching for a missing Northwest Airlines DC-4 in Lake Michigan (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login).  They used state of the art side scan sonar, navigation equipment and a towed magnetometer.  They spent a decade and covered over 300 square miles and they didn't find the plane.  Things are really tough to find underwater, even big things.   But, you can't find them if you don't look.
"If you always do what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you’ve always got." - Henry Ford
 

georger

  • Guest
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #622 on: January 21, 2015, 12:53:26 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I think it would of been a good idea had it happened a year ago. multiple dredge operations, probably dozens over 4 decades of time. even if it was down there it wouldn't be easy to find a parachute container. that's a lot of water to canvas.

Convince the guy ( name escapes me) who found the Titanic. he can find anything  ;D

Robert Ballard (Yale University) and his original team are all retired.
 
 

georger

  • Guest
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #623 on: January 21, 2015, 04:34:14 AM »
Blevins says tonight:

7) When Tom Kaye and his Citizen Sleuths team examine some of the Tena Bar bills, they say the bills could not have lain out in the weather for nine years. (paraphrased, but it is basically what they say)

I am not aware of Kaye ever saying this, or saying anything about the 'weather' in this regard.  Maybe Blevins can supply the place Tom says what Blevins is contending Kaye says -

In fact, as previously posted on Dropzone -  Tom actually did a guesstimate that the bills might have lost an average 1/8th inch of paper around all sides of the bills, per year, based on a whole bill, going back to 1971.

In fact. Tom tries to account for the money having been on Tina Bar since 1971-72 on his website, and he incorporates this reference in his analysis and rejection of the Palmer Report - which Blevins claims he has or had, and "I have reviewed the Palmer Report!". Another questionable claim by Mr. Blevins in a legion of quetionable claims.

So Blevins attribution to Kaye is totally wrong and just one more case of Blevins not knowing what he's talking about, and making a false claims in attribution to Tom Kaye.

Now, Blevins can claim once again this is one more "hate based rant by Georger" if he wants. It is Blevins who makes "hate-based rants" and false attributions to others which are devoid on any real facts or content. And none of his expressions of displeasure are going to change his status in life, which are of his own making and genetics!
   
Mr. Blevins is not Tom Kaye's secretary, interpreter, or spokesperson!  :o  Mr. Blevins can make up lies if he wants but it does not alter reality, and most people know that without any reminder.

And Mr. Blevins tries so hard!    ;D
« Last Edit: January 21, 2015, 06:35:01 AM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1024 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #624 on: January 21, 2015, 10:27:37 AM »
Blevins should work on the Hoffa case. that needs his help with conclusion as well. he seems to have it all figured out.

"After the money is discovered, FBI says they think Cooper died in the jump and scale back the investigation"

That was there conclusion years before the money was found.

Now, he claims the money was thrown in the river? what about his buddy Tom Kaye who stated the money sinks, so how did it get back up and on the beach, and bury itself?

"Smart-ass FBI agents, not wanting to be beat by Cooper"
Now he's no longer supporting the FBI, and calls them smart asses? that's there job to catch the bad guys. unfortunately they overlooked the possibility of him getting away. this shows how personal this is between him, and Kenny.

Not one single person has ever verified the flight path being correct. that's not to say it isn't, but Carr stated "the believed flight path" that's not very certain in my opinion. they can't find planes today that were lost on radar!

This is just more evidence of how he can take things and "paraphrase" them. since nobody knows what the people said to Robert about Kenny there is no way to see how much he has "paraphrased" himself.

If we continue this topic we should move to the off topic area. basically where it belongs. 8)

« Last Edit: January 21, 2015, 10:38:45 AM by shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1024 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #625 on: January 21, 2015, 10:44:17 AM »
Quote
Robert Ballard (Yale University) and his original team are all retired.

I just looked him up, WOW  :o, he is now 72 years old. my how time fly's by.

NMIwrecks, are people currently still looking for flight 2501? that's another interesting mystery as well that needs closure.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2015, 10:44:42 AM by shutter »
 

georger

  • Guest
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #626 on: January 21, 2015, 03:08:54 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Blevins should work on the Hoffa case. that needs his help with conclusion as well. he seems to have it all figured out.

"After the money is discovered, FBI says they think Cooper died in the jump and scale back the investigation"

That was there conclusion years before the money was found.

Now, he claims the money was thrown in the river? what about his buddy Tom Kaye who stated the money sinks, so how did it get back up and on the beach, and bury itself?

"Smart-ass FBI agents, not wanting to be beat by Cooper"
Now he's no longer supporting the FBI, and calls them smart asses? that's there job to catch the bad guys. unfortunately they overlooked the possibility of him getting away. this shows how personal this is between him, and Kenny.

Not one single person has ever verified the flight path being correct. that's not to say it isn't, but Carr stated "the believed flight path" that's not very certain in my opinion. they can't find planes today that were lost on radar!

This is just more evidence of how he can take things and "paraphrase" them. since nobody knows what the people said to Robert about Kenny there is no way to see how much he has "paraphrased" himself.

If we continue this topic we should move to the off topic area. basically where it belongs. 8)

The subject is not Blevins, but "the money". Specifically Blevins' Theory that "3 Bundolas", is key to the whole DB Cooper case, from flight path to the money being on Tina Bar at all, to Cooper's actions and "motivations", and what really happened in the DB Cooper case!  Blevins says SA "Furman" (wrong spelling) confirmed that Blevins' revelations about "three bundles" are key, and that "smart ass FBI agents" missed seeing what Blevins has seen.

Blevins has repeated his claims about the "3 bundolas" about 300 times on Dropzone, ad nauseum. Either his claims are right, or they are wrong. Factual or myth. I am just a spectator in all of this, trying to judge the merits of Blevins' claim(s)! And one central issue at stake is: "How much can you read into the fact of 3 bundolas at Tina Bar ... if there were 3-bundolas there at all! And not 2.8754 bundolas. Or 20 bundolas! Sitting on Tina Bar at some position which is hotly debated and so far as I am concerned not even decided!

A lot is st stake in "3 bundolas", which is the reason for my interest.

I am so interested in "3 bundolas" I have even taken the time to list a few questions I think are crucial:

(1) Came as a cemented block or separated bundles which merged like sheep in a pasture? Do bundles of dollar bills have minds and motivations!?

(2) Do the bundles show evidence of rearrangement within each bundle?

(3) Did the bundles swim upstream, behind a passing ship from the Lewis river? Do dollar bills have fins and tails and act from their own will and volition, in some Fourth Dimension?

(4) Came from close by or further away? Supported by debris or a bag or some other fact of their existence, or sent and protected by God and the Arc Angel Michael, from the Fourth Dimension?

(5) Broken remnants of some larger group of money, and subject to great force(s) during their lifetime vs. being delivered by the gentle hands of a hero hijacker Robin Hood vs. the rough and gnarly hairy hands of a thug boat operator like Blevins' nemesis, Bernie Geestman ... ?

(6) Smooth surfaces or rough surfaces as an indicator of abrasion during their trip to Tina Bar?  Over rocks and splinters or over smooth sand during their journey to be found?

(7) Is Tina Bar a magical place which attracted the money home?

(8) How far could 3-bundolas travel in water or along mud and sand without being broken apart ... in what period of time? Did Agent Fur Man do a Bayesian analysis he shared with Blevins? In addition to the Palmer Report does Blevins have the Furman-Bayesian report?

(9) When did the 3-bundolas come to Tina Bar? 1971? 1972? Much later 1978-1980? How can we know? Whose motivations do we have to examine by water torture and submersion to know?

(10) Does the flood of 1978 require the money came from the Washougal or could the same flood have brought the money to Tina Bar from Smith Lake, or the Shillapoo, or from the Faxio's own dredge spoil piles just around the corner from Tina Bar? What method of torture is required to know?

(11) What "is" the condition of the found money and who shall decide that issue? What metrics decide such issues and who decides? (US Treasury or Rev Billy Bob Huggs?) Was anyone on the Citizen Sleuth Team qualified to make such a judgement, who was that and what were his or her qualifications., what judgements-decisions were made, and where is that information on Tom Kaye's website or at G & R Houscleaning-Adventure Books ?

(12) If there is any reliable determination-metrics of the money's condition as a found aggregate, what do those facts imply about the money's history since being given to Cooper? Burial? Stored in a vault? Stored in a paint bucket? Stored in a bag?  Stored in someone's closet? Stored in Venezuela?  Is there anything about the condition of the money that proves something/anything that we can take to the debate as an indisputable fact as tangible and certain as the particles Tom found on the tie the FBI has?

(13) Is any progress in this money debate possible?

 :D

Bonus points question:  *What materials and chemistry comprised a $20 dollar bill given to Cooper? How do those materials and emulsifiers and chemistry stand up to exposure to Nature? Do those facts of construction tell us anything about the condition of the money as found, and the forces acting upon that money since 1971?   
« Last Edit: January 21, 2015, 03:14:34 PM by georger »
 

Offline nmiwrecks

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 387
  • Thanked: 3 times
    • MichiganMysteries.com
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #627 on: January 21, 2015, 05:04:02 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Quote
Robert Ballard (Yale University) and his original team are all retired.

I just looked him up, WOW  :o, he is now 72 years old. my how time fly's by.

NMIwrecks, are people currently still looking for flight 2501? that's another interesting mystery as well that needs closure.

I believe my old group, the Michigan Shipwreck Research Associates (MSRA) is still poking around for it, but the chances of them finding it are very slim.  Looks like we will have to wait for improvements in technology before the 2501 mystery is solved.

Sometimes we forget that when we look for something and don't find it, at least we know where it isn't.
"If you always do what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you’ve always got." - Henry Ford
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1024 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #628 on: January 21, 2015, 05:28:37 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Quote
Robert Ballard (Yale University) and his original team are all retired.

I just looked him up, WOW  :o, he is now 72 years old. my how time fly's by.

NMIwrecks, are people currently still looking for flight 2501? that's another interesting mystery as well that needs closure.

I believe my old group, the Michigan Shipwreck Research Associates (MSRA) is still poking around for it, but the chances of them finding it are very slim.  Looks like we will have to wait for improvements in technology before the 2501 mystery is solved.

Sometimes we forget that when we look for something and don't find it, at least we know where it isn't.

When they say the plane was flying over Battle creek, is that Kalamazoo, or Kellogg?
 

Offline nmiwrecks

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 387
  • Thanked: 3 times
    • MichiganMysteries.com
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #629 on: January 21, 2015, 06:16:40 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Quote
Robert Ballard (Yale University) and his original team are all retired.

I just looked him up, WOW  :o, he is now 72 years old. my how time fly's by.

NMIwrecks, are people currently still looking for flight 2501? that's another interesting mystery as well that needs closure.

I believe my old group, the Michigan Shipwreck Research Associates (MSRA) is still poking around for it, but the chances of them finding it are very slim.  Looks like we will have to wait for improvements in technology before the 2501 mystery is solved.

Sometimes we forget that when we look for something and don't find it, at least we know where it isn't.

When they say the plane was flying over Battle creek, is that Kalamazoo, or Kellogg?

Battle Creek,  home of Kellogg's Cereal, is about 20 miles east of Kalamazoo.  They think the DC-4 flew over the coast of Lake Michigan somewhere between South Haven and Benton Harbor.  Wreckage was found 40 hours later about 10 miles off South Haven.
"If you always do what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you’ve always got." - Henry Ford