What 'form' does Tom think the money was in, when given to Cooper. ?  He and I have never had that conversation.

Why did Tom use the form of a bundle he chose for his experiment?

Did Tom and Larry ever communicate about the form the money was in, paper straps, etc ? It sure would be nice to know! 

Here are two posts Ckret made at DZ in 2008 on 'paper straps' and the form the money was in:

CKRET
Jan 27, 2008, 8:20 PM

Post #1461 of 1694 (1027 views)

      Re: [Guru312] Popular Cooper Myths Debunked [In reply to]
 

This is a big misunderstanding about the money, it all had to be manually scanned. Tellers had a bill list of all 10,000 20's and if someone came in with a boat load they would do a spot check to see if any of the serials poped up. As for bills being scanned when they go through US Treasury, its to look for counterfeiting and they don't scan the serial numbers. So Cooper could have spent the money and unless he passed one at a bank where a teller manually looked up the number it would have never been noticed.

We really need to shore up discussion on the money because it is the key to almost all theories about what happened to Cooper. For example, someone mentioned the possibility Cooper made away with some of the money and some was lost the night of the jump. Could not have happened according to the condition the money was found in. The rubber bands would have rotted long before the bundles were found on the beach, meaning there would not have been bundles if the money was in the environment unprotected.

The money was provided by Seafirst bank which is now Bank of America. The money had been earmarked for situations such as these and was always on hand. It had been photographed and serial numbers recorded by their security so the FBI did none of this.

The money was then transported by SeaFirst bank security to a Seattle police detective who then drove it to the airport and handed over to NWA. The money was bundled in various counts so that no bundle was the same. Each bundle was secured by rubber bands and different counts so that it appeared the money was hastily gathered.


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May 1, 2008, 9:33 AM

Post #1637 of 10320 (1666 views)

Registered: Sep 7, 2007
Posts: 522

Sorry, I have been crazy busy but I did make some progress. We could not find a photo (yet) of the bag used for the money but I was able to confirm it was like the one I posted, a simple money sack.

As for the "shocking " information about the money, I spoke with the individual who carried the money from the bank to the airport the night of the hijacking. When I was talking with him he recounted that they were in the vault running the money through the counting machine and strapping the bundles. I didn't catch it at, first but later in our conversation I caught on to the strapping part and said, "wait a minute." "you were strapping the $20.00 bundles with $2,000 paper straps?" He said "yes" and I almost fell out of my chair.

So I then started putting calls into Brian Ingram. He called me back and we spoke about the discovery of the money. What I found was that the money was not recovered near the water but about 20 to 40 feet from the edge. He said he found it in an area that had recently been covered in water. So I thought, "well not really much of a difference." I then asked for the details about the condition of the money when he found it and he confirmed, after speaking with his parents, that the money absolutely had rubber bands around the bundles. This makes sense because there is no way paper straps would have kept the money together over the years.

So this all means, on face value, that if the money given to Cooper by the bank had paper straps and the found money had rubber bands....... well you could see how I was a bit perplexed. This would mean that either Cooper lived and repackaged the money or someone found the money and repackaged it. Which would be "par for the course" with regard to this case.

I then went back and re-interviewed the bank security manager and found out that he wasn't directly involved in packaging the money, only carrying it to the airport. He was relaying what their normal procedure was for processing and packaging money for shipment. But that didn’t happen in this case.

The funds that were given to Cooper were not pulled from their circulating cash but from a security fund that was prepackaged for these types of incidents. This money was not strapped because the bank did not want any subjects to know where it came from so it was packaged with rubber bands. My head was spinning for a few days until I could get it straight.

As for the "oscillation" explanation that still stands. The crew was referring to the equipment not the pressure bump. In fact, a hand written log that was being kept as the evewnts unfolded has an entry at 8:11 that the crew reported the cabin pressure was "fluctuating."

So the time reported when the crew mentioned the oscillations was when Cooper most likely started down the stairs. The further he got down the stairs the more air would be rushing through the cabin. The pressure bump, which would be when he jumped, occurred (according to Rataczak) 10 to 15 minutes after their last contact with Cooper at 8:05.

Wow, Georger.

I was only a part time lurker in the Carr/DZ days, so this information is brand new to me. Two things jump out:

1. Carr says that Ingram confirmed that the money was not found near the water, but 20 to 40 feet from the shore. I think this has been discussed on here before when the precise location of the find was being debated. I assume. This ~10 meter distance is old news, but new to me.

2. What blows me away is what Carr then goes on to say about a different topic: the oscillations. To quote:

As for the "oscillation" explanation that still stands. The crew was referring to the equipment not the pressure bump. In fact, a hand written log that was being kept as the evewnts unfolded has an entry at 8:11 that the crew reported the cabin pressure was "fluctuating."

So the time reported when the crew mentioned the oscillations was when Cooper most likely started down the stairs. The further he got down the stairs the more air would be rushing through the cabin. The pressure bump, which would be when he jumped, occurred (according to Rataczak) 10 to 15 minutes after their last contact with Cooper at 8:05.

This would be the put the pressure bump (Cooper’s jump) sometime between 8:15 and 8:20. That’s exactly when 305 was closest to the Columbia River. This would add credence to the theory that Cooper jumped near the Columbia, and the river was the mechanism that transported the money to Tena Bar downstream.

Cool stuff.

Your last sentence was Carr's original thought in 2008. Carr stated:

Jan 22, 2008, 1:03 PM
Post #1298 of 1694 (759 views)
      Re: [SafecrackingPLF] Columbia Waterline [In reply to]
 
Since there is nothing that reasonably points to someone planting the money, we can rule out any jump point that could not put Cooper near a tributary. If Cooper jumped over or just south of Orchard he would have been blown north and east several miles. If the farthest south jump point shown on the map I posted is 8:12, then where would the plane be at 8:13, 8:14 and 8:15. Also don't forget you could factor in a flight path .5 mile east of the flight path line from Battleground to Salem.

and

So the time reported when the crew mentioned the oscillations was when Cooper most likely started down the stairs. The further he got down the stairs the more air would be rushing through the cabin. The pressure bump, which would be when he jumped, occurred (according to Rataczak) 10 to 15 minutes after their last contact with Cooper at 8:05. """

Carr felt the drop time/place had to be moved South. Simple as that.

Fly did not enjoy my posting of Carr's old posts. FJ has turned caustic as expected. He has no new evidence so he resorts to his old habits ... FJ is ignoring his claim that paper straps "dissolved".

Since FJ's argument hinges on H having talked about packets (and straps?) I called three agents who worked with H today and asked them what their recollection was concerning the 'form' the Cooper money was in.  Two of these people worked with H at Portland. One replied, "I have no idea. I always wondered about that myself because the guys who worked with the bank were in Seattle. There was no reason for us to even talk to the bank people - that was a Seattle function and in their jurisdiction. All we were told was that the Ingram money had been wrapped with rubber bands. We examined what the Ingrams brought in very carefully and we never saw any sign of paper straps. . . .I never understood why H said Cooper was a foul mouthed (da da da) because the profile had him being calm and polite ... H also told us the money came down the Washougal and to stick to that script with reporters ... '

I think the first thing FJ needs to do is stop being hysterical about this, and everything he does. None of this is personal to any of us sitting here in 2021! Then maybe FJ can find Carr or the bank guy and talk to them firsthand, and resolve this nonsense. The reason I have resisted FJ all these years is because of Carr's work  (and Tom's model). Without that I would be sitting here on my lily pad like all the other frogs watching flies Fly by. 

May I suggest someone throw a packet, brick and/or 20 lb bag of money into the Columbia River near PDX and see what happens?

Here’s a clue: it sinks.

The other very big problem with any theory that suggests DBC no-pulled and then was swept down the river in June is that we know where the FBI Flight Path shows the jet crossing the Columbia River--it's right by PDX. Well, look at Google Earth or satellite imagery and you'll see that this entire area of the Columbia is very built up with an enormous amount of foot traffic. I cannot foresee a situation where a body is laying on the shore--a lot of which is essentially a wall--and simply goes unnoticed for seven months.

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The other very big problem with any theory that suggests DBC no-pulled and then was swept down the river in June is that we know where the FBI Flight Path shows the jet crossing the Columbia River--it's right by PDX. Well, look at Google Earth or satellite imagery and you'll see that this entire area of the Columbia is very built up with an enormous amount of foot traffic. I cannot foresee a situation where a body is laying on the shore--a lot of which is essentially a wall--and simply goes unnoticed for seven months.

If you want to test something take 100 bank type paper straps and burying them at TBar and see if they have dissolved after 8 years, as FJ contends/swears they do!

Likewise find anyone in banking in America who knows what the word "packet" means. You guys using that term claim its an official banking term. How come we cant find any banker in America than even knows what the term means ?

Packet was used in Old England meaning "a large sum of money". FJ is Canadian. Maybe FJ is a 98 year old British woman?

To be clear, I'm not weighing in at all concerning use of the term "packet" versus "bundle." In my mind it's meaningless.

I think it's perfectly clear that the packets of 100-bills were not bound together. Moreover, if you try to pack the bank bag with bricks versus the smaller packets it becomes difficult to pack efficiently--the bricks are awkward and clunky, I've tried.

Nonetheless, whether we're discussing packets or bundles or bricks or bags, they sink and do not float. Therefore, if one subscribes to the FBI Flight Path and to his no-pulling in or near the Columbia River, you're talking the cash would have to float 12 miles to the burial spot. This is impossible.

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The other very big problem with any theory that suggests DBC no-pulled and then was swept down the river in June is that we know where the FBI Flight Path shows the jet crossing the Columbia River--it's right by PDX. Well, look at Google Earth or satellite imagery and you'll see that this entire area of the Columbia is very built up with an enormous amount of foot traffic. I cannot foresee a situation where a body is laying on the shore--a lot of which is essentially a wall--and simply goes unnoticed for seven months.

Certainly that’s true today, but I’m not sure about that in 1971. I’m not saying it wasn’t built up - I truly don’t know. My guess is that stretch of riverbank was not nearly as built up as it is now. Again, just an educated guess and I could be very wrong.

Also, there are several islands in that area of the river - Lemon, Government, Tomahawk - that are less frequented and could possibly store a body or bag of money over winter without being seen.

Honestly, all I have are assumptions and educated guesses. Need more data and info to really pin down some solid answers. I do appreciate input from everyone.

Chaucer, I trust that you will appreciate this input.

Anything that makes it into the Columbia River on the north side of the PIA, or anywhere else, is going to stay in the Columbia River and move to the western edge of the river when it makes the turn to the north just west of the I-5 bridge.

And any human body that has been on land or in the river for several months is not going to have any flotation capability but will be under water and probably on the river bed.  When it goes around that north turn, it will end up in the shipping channel, which is 40 feet deep, on the west side of the river and it is going to stay there unless it is removed by human or other activities that adds energy to it.

Some of the theories that are being proffered here require that the money move from the river bed to 50 or so feet from and several feet higher than the river water level without any inputs from anything else.

If you can determine a mechanism for accomplishing this, then file for a patent on that mechanism.  And if you are successful in obtaining a patent, then you will be rich, famous, and a genius.

You will also own a patent on the first Perpetual Motion Machine.

I have seen no evidence that any debris that ends up on the east side of the I-5 bridge would not end up on Tena Bar. If you have that evidence I would very much like to read it. Also, I'm not an expert on human decomposition as you seem to be. Could you also provide evidence that a body loses buoyancy after six months of winter conditions? Perhaps you're right. I honestly don't know, so can you share your evidence?

Regarding, the islands, Government and Lemon Islands are uninhabited and are only accessible with a permit. I would also be doubtful that too many people would be tramping along the island in the middle of winter. Lastly, one could find numerous examples of bodies that went undiscovered in areas very similar to that stretch of river. I don't think it is beyond reason to suggest that Cooper and/or the money ended up in the brush and vegetation near the shore and were not seen or discovered.

If you do have evidence that demonstrates that I am wrong, please share it.