Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find  (Read 1358103 times)

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #555 on: January 14, 2015, 12:22:27 PM »
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I found something,,

The FBI apparently determined (we don't know how) a 2600' no pull distance, that is 0.5 miles, that would be about 0.75 miles short of Smith Lake from I5 Hayden, granted that number and the flight path are not precise, it is close. The precise flight path is unknown between the waypoints.



That's right - Sluggo posted about this in response to Hangdiver:

"Sluggo_Monster
Jun 12, 2008, 5:29 PM
Post #2503 of 56871 (52435 views)
    Re: [hangdiver] Skydivers, I need your HELP! [In reply to]

The forward throw would be about 1,200' @100mph in no wind. kellend's calculator gives a great simulation of the forward throw. An unstable body flailing around is a bit harder to calculate. Back in the day when I learned to jump it was arch thousand, two thousand etc. up to a 10 second delay. A 15 second delay was the first time I checked altitude with an altimeter. Counting past 10 seconds gives a much larger error for altitude. If Cooper was only relying on his count for his altitude he needed to open fairly soon to avoid loss of altitude awareness especially at night with a bag tied to him. Just some thoughts on what his plan was.
________________________________________
Thanks hangdiver,

BTW: It is my understanding that the skydiving expert (a NWA Pilot and skydiver) on the LZ Zone team along with data from Boeing, set the “no pull” path as 2,600 feet along the aircraft’s track if Cooper free-fell [sic] all the way to the ground in the “least drag” (tucked) position.

Sluggo
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #556 on: January 14, 2015, 01:12:43 PM »
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That's right - Sluggo posted about this in response to Hangdiver:

"Sluggo_Monster
Jun 12, 2008, 5:29 PM
Post #2503 of 56871 (52435 views)
    Re: [hangdiver] Skydivers, I need your HELP! [In reply to]

The forward throw would be about 1,200' @100mph in no wind. kellend's calculator gives a great simulation of the forward throw. An unstable body flailing around is a bit harder to calculate. Back in the day when I learned to jump it was arch thousand, two thousand etc. up to a 10 second delay. A 15 second delay was the first time I checked altitude with an altimeter. Counting past 10 seconds gives a much larger error for altitude. If Cooper was only relying on his count for his altitude he needed to open fairly soon to avoid loss of altitude awareness especially at night with a bag tied to him. Just some thoughts on what his plan was.
________________________________________
Thanks hangdiver,

BTW: It is my understanding that the skydiving expert (a NWA Pilot and skydiver) on the LZ Zone team along with data from Boeing, set the “no pull” path as 2,600 feet along the aircraft’s track if Cooper free-fell [sic] all the way to the ground in the “least drag” (tucked) position.

Sluggo

Since we don't know the methodology or confidence level of 2600', was it an expert "opinion",,, it would be good to get some sort of independent confirmation
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #557 on: January 15, 2015, 12:31:39 AM »
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That's right - Sluggo posted about this in response to Hangdiver:

"Sluggo_Monster
Jun 12, 2008, 5:29 PM
Post #2503 of 56871 (52435 views)
    Re: [hangdiver] Skydivers, I need your HELP! [In reply to]

The forward throw would be about 1,200' @100mph in no wind. kellend's calculator gives a great simulation of the forward throw. An unstable body flailing around is a bit harder to calculate. Back in the day when I learned to jump it was arch thousand, two thousand etc. up to a 10 second delay. A 15 second delay was the first time I checked altitude with an altimeter. Counting past 10 seconds gives a much larger error for altitude. If Cooper was only relying on his count for his altitude he needed to open fairly soon to avoid loss of altitude awareness especially at night with a bag tied to him. Just some thoughts on what his plan was.
________________________________________
Thanks hangdiver,

BTW: It is my understanding that the skydiving expert (a NWA Pilot and skydiver) on the LZ Zone team along with data from Boeing, set the “no pull” path as 2,600 feet along the aircraft’s track if Cooper free-fell [sic] all the way to the ground in the “least drag” (tucked) position.

Sluggo

Since we don't know the methodology or confidence level of 2600', was it an expert "opinion",,, it would be good to get some sort of independent confirmation

The 2500' forward throw estimate probably came from the "Boeing Co. & NWA pilot [name redacted], who is an expert parachutist"... as per the attached. Interesting part is: "parachute open condition" ... which sounds improbably long to me. (see attached)

Both Guru and Hangdiver and others at DZ voted for 1200-1250 feet FT max. I think that figure assumes unopened chute, however, and no special wind drag conditions.

You could always try Kellend's calculator yourself?

 



 
 
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #558 on: January 15, 2015, 12:37:38 AM »
If you go by the FBI plot it's just too far to splash into Smith lake. even with the plane turning it's not going to fling him almost the same distance as the altitude of the plane....it's not even forward in the throw...
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #559 on: January 15, 2015, 12:51:32 AM »
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If you go by the FBI plot it's just too far to splash into Smith lake. even with the plane turning it's not going to fling him almost the same distance as the altitude of the plane....it's not even forward in the throw...

That aside, the Columbia drainage basin with its marshes offers a means for Cooper, his chute, and his money vanishing until 1980. But an alternate version of the FBI flight path and timeline are required. I think it's worthwhile to explore these options especially since they were never explored before on Dropzone. Just my 2-cents.
   
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #560 on: January 15, 2015, 01:09:49 AM »
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If you go by the FBI plot it's just too far to splash into Smith lake. even with the plane turning it's not going to fling him almost the same distance as the altitude of the plane....it's not even forward in the throw...

That aside, the Columbia drainage basin with its marshes offers a means for Cooper, his chute, and his money vanishing until 1980. But an alternate version of the FBI flight path and timeline are required. I think it's worthwhile to explore these options especially since they were never explored before on Dropzone. Just my 2-cents.
 

It's an option, but a lot of luggage with it...
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #561 on: January 15, 2015, 01:15:36 AM »
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If you go by the FBI plot it's just too far to splash into Smith lake. even with the plane turning it's not going to fling him almost the same distance as the altitude of the plane....it's not even forward in the throw...

It is close, if you use the FBI drawn path which is an estimate between the points and the 2600' throw, it is short about 4400 ft to reach Smith.. if the plane path is off a bit and the throw is a bit farther, maybe, I'd like to get better numbers,,   A smaller target, the Slough is reachable, as well as the Golf course,, What was there in 1971??? Heron Lakes Club??

Looks like part of it opened in '71 more added later,, this is interesting

"the first 18 holes (present-day Greenback) and clubhouse were opened in 1971, under the name West Delta Park Golf Course. Along with the name change to Heron Lakes, another 9 holes were added during the 1980s giving the facility three 9-hole courses called the Red, White and Blue. An additional fourth set of 9 holes were added in 1992 to form the present Great Blue Course. In the spring of 2008, the City of Portland selected KemperSports to manage the property and assist in the process of developing a new clubhouse facility."

 

FLYJACK

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #562 on: January 15, 2015, 01:36:49 AM »
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If you go by the FBI plot it's just too far to splash into Smith lake. even with the plane turning it's not going to fling him almost the same distance as the altitude of the plane....it's not even forward in the throw...

That aside, the Columbia drainage basin with its marshes offers a means for Cooper, his chute, and his money vanishing until 1980. But an alternate version of the FBI flight path and timeline are required. I think it's worthwhile to explore these options especially since they were never explored before on Dropzone. Just my 2-cents.
 

I am having trouble rationalizing the chute not being noticed, if he landed there,
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #563 on: January 15, 2015, 02:24:01 AM »
It may be time to consult with Georger Nuttall.  He and his buddy were all over Hayden Island and Government Island, if I recall.
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #564 on: January 15, 2015, 10:13:31 AM »
Force Lake is reachable,,, did it have float access to the waterway in the 70s,,,

part of the golf course was being constructed in 71, opened in 72, added to in the 80s..

the entire area is a catch basin, a map from 97 shows a network of drainage channels and culverts connecting everything to the waterways,,

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there is a large water/swap area next to I5 w no name,, airport wetland
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attached drain map 97
« Last Edit: January 15, 2015, 11:10:48 AM by FLYJACK »
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #565 on: January 16, 2015, 01:31:52 AM »
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If you go by the FBI plot it's just too far to splash into Smith lake. even with the plane turning it's not going to fling him almost the same distance as the altitude of the plane....it's not even forward in the throw...

It is close, if you use the FBI drawn path which is an estimate between the points and the 2600' throw, it is short about 4400 ft to reach Smith.. if the plane path is off a bit and the throw is a bit farther, maybe, I'd like to get better numbers,,   A smaller target, the Slough is reachable, as well as the Golf course,, What was there in 1971??? Heron Lakes Club??

Looks like part of it opened in '71 more added later,, this is interesting

"the first 18 holes (present-day Greenback) and clubhouse were opened in 1971, under the name West Delta Park Golf Course. Along with the name change to Heron Lakes, another 9 holes were added during the 1980s giving the facility three 9-hole courses called the Red, White and Blue. An additional fourth set of 9 holes were added in 1992 to form the present Great Blue Course. In the spring of 2008, the City of Portland selected KemperSports to manage the property and assist in the process of developing a new clubhouse facility."

Do you have a date by which the money must be on Tina Bar?
« Last Edit: January 16, 2015, 01:42:29 AM by georger »
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #566 on: January 16, 2015, 11:39:21 AM »
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Do you have a date by which the money must be on Tina Bar?

Are you thinking 1978...

I am still trying to sort out just what that area was like in '71 and the changes. It changed substantially over the years..

The radio towers were in the swamp/wetland area,, taken down in 2000..

video of tower take down,,  I couldn't get the link to work here, a wmv file, (showed plugin req) so copy and paste in browser or video player but take out [removethis] in address. I got it to play in vlc on mac

https://[removethis]web.archive.org/web/20031209113012/http://www.radiotowersite.com/multimedia/rtv_twr_demo.wmv

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"In 1974, an oil spill from Harbor Oil's storage tanks on the property killed fish in Force Lake. In 1979, fire destroyed the plant, melting five 20,000-gallon above-ground oil storage tanks, which the EPA says allowed contaminants to flow into the lake and nearby wetlands. Drainage from Force Lake ultimately enters the Columbia Slough."
 

I5 1965.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2015, 02:24:56 PM by FLYJACK »
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #567 on: January 16, 2015, 03:43:58 PM »
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Do you have a date by which the money must be on Tina Bar?

Are you thinking 1978...


That is one of the sixty four dollar questions. Tom thinks the money had been on T_Bar before 1978; weathered out from an earlier arrival date.

What I note is the 'stable looking' condition of the bills which includes uniform deterioration of the bills around all edges. Suggests little movement for some time, maybe years. There are holes from bacterial attack in the middle portions of the bills some of which pass through several layers of bills. The central parts of the bills, especially bills from the middle of the stack are in remarkably well preserved condition. All of that suggests a stable condition with little movement for some years. It is hard to conceive of the bills having moved very far in the found condition, or the stacks would have fallen apart and there would have been nothing left to find at all. These facts of condition suggest a protected condition which had been a fact of life for this money for some years. 

Several FBI agents speculated the money had arrived in ice, but ice and temp records for the area don't seem to support that happening. The absence of conditions to support ice is almost a disappointment because it's a novel solution and could account for the money stacks being protected and transported over a long distance.   

Whenever the money arrived it almost certainly had to be covered over from sight along with its arrival. Otherwise money would have been seen and found earlier. That could be siltation during a flood or covering from dredge deposits (1974).

At one point Tom speculated 1/8th inch edge deteriorate per year. I don't know how valid that is. I think Tom was trying to account for the money having been at Tina Bar since late 1971 or in 1972. It is the lack of metrics like this or any other measurable metrics that makes it difficult to nail down a time at which the money "had" to be on Tina Bar.

 

 
 

Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #568 on: January 16, 2015, 04:12:54 PM »
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Do you have a date by which the money must be on Tina Bar?

Are you thinking 1978...


That is one of the sixty four dollar questions. Tom thinks the money had been on T_Bar before 1978; weathered out from an earlier arrival date.

What I note is the 'stable looking' condition of the bills which includes uniform deterioration of the bills around all edges. Suggests little movement for some time, maybe years. There are holes from bacterial attack in the middle portions of the bills some of which pass through several layers of bills. The central parts of the bills, especially bills from the middle of the stack are in remarkably well preserved condition. All of that suggests a stable condition with little movement for some years. It is hard to conceive of the bills having moved very far in the found condition, or the stacks would have fallen apart and there would have been nothing left to find at all. These facts of condition suggest a protected condition which had been a fact of life for this money for some years. 

Several FBI agents speculated the money had arrived in ice, but ice and temp records for the area don't seem to support that happening. The absence of conditions to support ice is almost a disappointment because it's a novel solution and could account for the money stacks being protected and transported over a long distance.   

Whenever the money arrived it almost certainly had to be covered over from sight along with its arrival. Otherwise money would have been seen and found earlier. That could be siltation during a flood or covering from dredge deposits (1974).

At one point Tom speculated 1/8th inch edge deteriorate per year. I don't know how valid that is. I think Tom was trying to account for the money having been at Tina Bar since late 1971 or in 1972. It is the lack of metrics like this or any other measurable metrics that makes it difficult to nail down a time at which the money "had" to be on Tina Bar.

You could probably add that the Columbia's water level had to be about 5+ feet higher on the arrival date than it was on the date the money was found.
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #569 on: January 16, 2015, 07:25:05 PM »
If I had to guess 1974.. highest flood stage, close to major flood. (of course missing most of '72)

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