Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

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Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find  (Read 1557242 times)

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5430 on: September 08, 2020, 05:51:38 PM »
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I doubt the cans came from the Ingrams..beach goers do bury trash they have. I'm not saying that's how the cans got there but they seem to arrived around the same period. if they got buried by natural means then the tides were high enough to slowly bury them..

Dorwin doesnt even remember the cans - says he never saw them or heard about them. But he thinks they should have been kept and tested for prints. I sent him the Seattle Office 302. He says all excavation evidence was taken and handled by Seattle, not Portland.   

I don't see how checking for prints would be of any value..this was almost a decade later on a public beach?
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Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5431 on: September 08, 2020, 05:51:53 PM »
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Not sure how they are put into 302's...it's statements from Tina's interview which is different from the standard 302..she recalls the chutes in both interviews..

I just want to see these 302s EU is referencing ...


might be one, not sure. I always use the interviews as a straight source..

I haven't had the time to source the "white material" comment, but it is possible--if not likely--that it wasn't from a 302 but rather some other FBI memo or FBI summary. Not sure.

Regardless, the impact is the same. After all, it is clear that DBC knew immediately upon receiving the ransom that he would have to use one of the parachutes to store at least some of the ransom. Moreover, we have witness testimony of seeing him attempting to do just that.

I suspect that given that Tina was busy and wasn't literally sitting there staring at DBC the entire time, but rather got occasional glimpses of his work, that she probably miss interpreted what she saw inasmuch as he was using one of the parachutes to store some of the money, not all of the money.

This becomes much more interesting when you consider that three packets somehow got separated from the rest of the ransom--on that point there is no dispute. Reading carefully what the witnesses saw and attempting to understand what was actually taking place, I think my version concerning the dummy reserve as the "white material" becomes more intriguing as it begins to explain how , when, where and why those three packets got separated from the rest of the ransom.

Please post all documents you refer to.
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Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5432 on: September 08, 2020, 05:52:42 PM »
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I doubt the cans came from the Ingrams..beach goers do bury trash they have. I'm not saying that's how the cans got there but they seem to arrived around the same period. if they got buried by natural means then the tides were high enough to slowly bury them..

Dorwin doesnt even remember the cans - says he never saw them or heard about them. But he thinks they should have been kept and tested for prints. I sent him the Seattle Office 302. He says all excavation evidence was taken and handled by Seattle, not Portland.   

I don't see how checking for prints would be of any value..this was almost a decade later on a public beach?

Its SOP - standard operating procedure. You dont "know" until you look.
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Offline EU

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5433 on: September 08, 2020, 05:54:28 PM »
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Cossey also claims the chute wouldn't open. even if he tried.

The dummy reserve definitely opened. It was used regularly for manual-deployment practice on the ground. Simply had half of the canopy panels removed to reduce the bulk and make it easier to shove back into the container.
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5434 on: September 08, 2020, 06:02:00 PM »
Yes, I've read that but it could of been distorted..sounds like you would pull the handle and nothing would happen...
« Last Edit: September 08, 2020, 06:09:46 PM by Shutter »
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5435 on: September 08, 2020, 06:07:09 PM »
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I doubt the cans came from the Ingrams..beach goers do bury trash they have. I'm not saying that's how the cans got there but they seem to arrived around the same period. if they got buried by natural means then the tides were high enough to slowly bury them..

Dorwin doesnt even remember the cans - says he never saw them or heard about them. But he thinks they should have been kept and tested for prints. I sent him the Seattle Office 302. He says all excavation evidence was taken and handled by Seattle, not Portland.   

I don't see how checking for prints would be of any value..this was almost a decade later on a public beach?

Its SOP - standard operating procedure. You dont "know" until you look.

Possibly, and only if it was considered evidence. it appears they didn't know about this until Palmer's conclusions? Palmers ditch wasn't really close to the money to connect objects..the FBI was already digging..
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Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5436 on: September 08, 2020, 11:27:29 PM »
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I doubt the cans came from the Ingrams..beach goers do bury trash they have. I'm not saying that's how the cans got there but they seem to arrived around the same period. if they got buried by natural means then the tides were high enough to slowly bury them..

Dorwin doesnt even remember the cans - says he never saw them or heard about them. But he thinks they should have been kept and tested for prints. I sent him the Seattle Office 302. He says all excavation evidence was taken and handled by Seattle, not Portland.   

I don't see how checking for prints would be of any value..this was almost a decade later on a public beach?

Its SOP - standard operating procedure. You dont "know" until you look.

Possibly, and only if it was considered evidence. it appears they didn't know about this until Palmer's conclusions? Palmers ditch wasn't really close to the money to connect objects..the FBI was already digging..

The article doesnt say what day the cans were found, or by whom. Im not sure which day Palmer arrived on scene - Tuesday the 13th or Thursday the 14th? I know from Dorwin raking and some digging preceded Palmer even being on scene. 
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5437 on: September 08, 2020, 11:37:55 PM »
I think we can safely say Palmer identified the artifacts in the ground. I assume he was in charge of his operation. it does appear they were separate in the investigation vs together? he probably sent his completed version of events shortly after leaving Tbar?
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Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5438 on: September 09, 2020, 12:38:07 AM »
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I think we can safely say Palmer identified the artifacts in the ground. I assume he was in charge of his operation. it does appear they were separate in the investigation vs together? he probably sent his completed version of events shortly after leaving Tbar?

I doubt Palmer kept anything ... all evidence belongs to the FBI (Seattle). The cans probably stayed at Tina Bar.
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5439 on: September 09, 2020, 12:57:10 AM »
Not sure the value of the cans mean anything other than what's reported..they appear to have been in the sand a short period due to no damage from the elements. some cans have a number system on the bottom or top to identify the year..I have seen a can fly posted dated 1976 and found one from 1977. only White Rock knows when they switched to aluminum which might not of been till the 80's..

Ebay has a Sioux city can that shows numbers on the bottom that means they would be able to trace the year of the can..
« Last Edit: September 09, 2020, 08:56:41 AM by Shutter »
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5440 on: September 09, 2020, 09:51:52 AM »
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I think we can safely say Palmer identified the artifacts in the ground. I assume he was in charge of his operation. it does appear they were separate in the investigation vs together? he probably sent his completed version of events shortly after leaving Tbar?

I doubt Palmer kept anything ... all evidence belongs to the FBI (Seattle). The cans probably stayed at Tina Bar.

Palmer would be similar to what the Air Force did. they provided a map of the path. it's doubtful they were forced to turn anything over to the FBI. Palmer was invited to help. he would do his thing and give a final report for them to use. if something important was found they would seize it soon after..the cans gave a general idea of time. based on what we have seen it appears the FBI didn't know what a camera was or are witholding a lot of photo's...no pics of the money, chute etc..
« Last Edit: September 09, 2020, 09:52:57 AM by Shutter »
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Offline dudeman17

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5441 on: September 09, 2020, 05:23:31 PM »
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Cossey also claims the chute wouldn't open. even if he tried.
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Cossey also claims the chute wouldn't open. even if he tried.

The dummy reserve definitely opened. It was used regularly for manual-deployment practice on the ground. Simply had half of the canopy panels removed to reduce the bulk and make it easier to shove back into the container.
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Yes, I've read that but it could of been distorted..sounds like you would pull the handle and nothing would happen...


If it had somehow been jumped, would the dummy reserve have opened? That's actually a two-part question. The container would have opened, but the canopy would not have. In those days, the Emergency Procedure for a malfunctioned main was to open the container, manually grab the canopy within, and throw it past the malfunctioned main. So for the dummy training device, the container opens so that the student parachutist can practice doing that. But if you just had a normal canopy in there, it would be a pain in the ass to repack the whole thing between uses. So the canopy was apparently sewn shut to make that easier. Of the two ways that has been suggested, obviously we don't know for sure, but... Having several or half of the panels removed doesn't make sense to me. One, it would be a lot of work for a rigger to tear it apart, remove panels, then sew it together again, and two, if the bulk was reduced it would make for less accurate training for the student. Rather, if the canopy was just sewn together, that makes more sense. There is a point in the pack job where the panels are all 'flaked', or stacked on top of each other, and it's in a long, thin configuration at that point. If the rigger just sewed the edges together at that point, it would be easier for him, would make it easy to just z-fold that back into the container each time, and would make for more accurate training for the student. So if the dummy reserve were to be jumped, when the handle was pulled the container would open, the canopy would deploy lengthwise, but it would not inflate. It would be a manufactured 'streamer' malfunction.
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Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5442 on: September 09, 2020, 11:58:35 PM »
Renowned professional numismatist Arthur Friedberg speculates the Columbia flushed the rest of the Cooper money, based somewhat on the condition of the Ingram find. Other experts say a dredge would have chewed up all of the money. Merging both opinions could this be why only 1.5% and fragments of the Cooper money were found on Tina Bar? 

Palmer could not explain the fragments! Hmmm. His out was bad excavation practices and sticky FBI shoes, and digger agents doing the The Hokey Pokey while walking around aimlessly like Zombies; The Hokey Pokey patented by Coach Haden Fry in 2010!

 :nono: 
« Last Edit: September 10, 2020, 01:02:32 AM by georger »
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5443 on: September 10, 2020, 10:43:56 AM »
With the latest evidence it kind of tosses a wrench into the dredge...I still don't believe it would destroy all the money. it's a vacuum pump with a different type of blade which really isn't a blade. I think a lot of it would of passed through.

The cans were found in the upper levels which are considered new sand correct? if that is correct that's where the money was as well. it's doubtful the cans were there more than a couple years so it really doesn't matter the year of the can to a certain extent. if the can had numbers on the bottom it would tell you the year which would probably be 78-79. highly unlikely the cans were from 1980. very doubtful they were from 73-77 or rust and decay would be present. even 1978 might not show as recent. they tend to push out old stock on the shelves first.

Then claims of the money not being on the beach long are made. if so, how did all the fragments get there so quick? how close upstream was any pipe dredging going on that it could of filtered downstream? I have a picture showing cat island getting sand on the north end of the island but have to see what year is was done. Palmer also claims the money was wet most of the time and didn't decay as it would in the air..not sure I buy into that one. they found some large pieces of money. were they ever able to link the pieces with what was found?

If the money was buried in 1971 how did it get into new sand or level with cans that show no damage from the elements which tend to show the cans arrived recently..
« Last Edit: September 10, 2020, 10:45:31 AM by Shutter »
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5444 on: September 10, 2020, 11:41:58 AM »
Got a response from the woman who runs the website Siouxland Families...in reference to the Sarsaparilla cans found on Tbar..she didn't appear to know much about anything. here response was brief and appeared to be amazed it was tied to a crime..

win some and you lose some..I'm still waiting on a response from White Rock..


Wow! That is really interesting. I don’t actually have any idea though what year they had cans vs bottles. I would reach out to the company. Good luck!

 Lindsay Hindman
« Last Edit: September 10, 2020, 11:42:41 AM by Shutter »
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