Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find  (Read 1558144 times)

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5280 on: August 25, 2020, 02:44:52 PM »
Andrade and FLYJACK have thrown a real kink into this story - and Im not sure exactly what they are claiming.

Some US Corps of Engineers guy was at Tina Bar along with Palmer, examining the site?, advising the FBI?, examining and labeling strata?, identified strata for Palmer?, and who knows what else according to Andrade aNd FLYJACK. Andrade has the guy's name but hasnt responded to name the guy. Andrade and FLYJACK seem to be working together on this? 

Could the guy Andrade ad FJ are talking about be: JACK BECHLY, Civil Engineer Chief , Waterways Maintenance Branch, Navigation Division, U.S. Army Engineer District, 319 S.W. Pine,  .............................  or is it some other USCE guy unnamed or named in FBI files .........Flyjack and Andrade have but the rest of us dont have?

Maybe Bruce Smith knows! ?

And what does Willow Bar have to do with this? FJ writes relating to dredge deposits on Tina Bar:

•    #62446
14 hours ago
The Money spot was at the N end of the Fazio property which is within a different site from the Fazio operation (97.1)
This is a 1975 map of "existing disposal sites",, the red dot is the money spot which is the S tip of the N site.. 
It looks like the primary Fazio sand and gravel operation has nothing to do with the money spot. There is an adjacent site.
 
  .............  can anyone make any sense of this ? ..............
« Last Edit: August 25, 2020, 02:45:17 PM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5281 on: August 25, 2020, 02:52:08 PM »
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A couple of things.

Getting data related to any dredging operation at that time is exceptionally difficult. That said, I'm working on it. Nonetheless, the photographs themselves tell a story and are compelling evidence that dredge spoils were used to replenish the entirety of Tena Bar in 1970.

Moreover, the photographs also appear to indicate that the dredge spoils placed upon Tena Bar in August 1974 were of a smallish amount and did not reach the money find spot.

Also, Richard Fazio told me yesterday that dredging along this area was done on an as-needed basis. In other words, it wasn't done in a set number of year.

With that in mind, I suspect that I know what happened here.

1) Tena Bar had been allowed to erode appreciably in the late 1960's as evidenced by the July 1968 photos I've displayed.

2) In January 1970 the Columbia River experienced a high water event that crested on January 24, 1970 at only 2 feet below the June 1972 crest.

3) I'm assuming that the January 1970 high water event necessitated a dredging operation later in 1970. And, that it was this dredging operation that accounts for the enormous amount of sand placed upon the entirety of Tena Bar as evidenced by the September 1970 photo I displayed.

4) Then, of course, the next dredge was in August 1974, but on a much smaller scale and did not reach the money find spot.

5) In 1980, the site is excavated by the FBI and Palmer and he incorrectly assumes the dredge spoils he is looking at are from the most recent 1974 dredge, when in reality they're from the 1970 dredge.

the dredge spoils placed upon Tena Bar in August 1974 were of a smallish amount and did not reach the money find spot.

material was deposited on the beach area of the FAZIO Brothers’ Farm between August 19 through the 25th, 1974, ‘and consisted of 91,100 cubic yards of fill.

Three USGS hydrologists Ive spoken with say the 1974 spoils could be expected to migrate "thousands of yards in the current over the beach at Tina Bar". So at least three professional hydrologists disagree with your opinion.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5282 on: August 25, 2020, 03:03:35 PM »
You have to watch looking at these sat pics...Historical Aerials has 2011 through 2016 and you can clearly see a difference in tides and doubt you can say dredge material is a factor. the pictures were taken at different times. one year shows tree's on the beach and the next has them in the water..
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5283 on: August 25, 2020, 03:04:58 PM »
Quote
Three USGS hydrologists Ive spoken with say the 1974 spoils could be expected to migrate "thousands of yards in the current over the beach at Tina Bar". So at least three professional hydrologists disagree with your opinion.

Correct, but how can the sand move upwards above the tide, especially several feet deep?
 

Offline EU

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5284 on: August 25, 2020, 03:38:40 PM »
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Three USGS hydrologists Ive spoken with say the 1974 spoils could be expected to migrate "thousands of yards in the current over the beach at Tina Bar". So at least three professional hydrologists disagree with your opinion.

GEORGER you constantly misstate things. This does not help anyone.

I have NEVER expressed an opinion that disagrees with spoils migrating "in the current over the beach." Why suggest that I have? That's dishonest.

Rather, what I have said is that spoils cannot migrate up the beach by themselves. The river water did not reach the money find spot after the August 1974 spoils were placed upon Tena Bar. Therefore, it stands to reason that the water did not move the spoils to the money find spot.

So, if 1974 spoils are at the money find spot, how did they get there?

Having said all of this, it is reasonable to deduce that 1974 spoils did not get to the money find spot after all. Simply put, Palmer was wrong when he said that they did.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5285 on: August 25, 2020, 04:08:30 PM »
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Three USGS hydrologists Ive spoken with say the 1974 spoils could be expected to migrate "thousands of yards in the current over the beach at Tina Bar". So at least three professional hydrologists disagree with your opinion.

GEORGER you constantly misstate things. This does not help anyone.

I have NEVER expressed an opinion that disagrees with spoils migrating "in the current over the beach." Why suggest that I have? That's dishonest.

Rather, what I have said is that spoils cannot migrate up the beach by themselves. The river water did not reach the money find spot after the August 1974 spoils were placed upon Tena Bar. Therefore, it stands to reason that the water did not move the spoils to the money find spot.

So, if 1974 spoils are at the money find spot, how did they get there?

Having said all of this, it is reasonable to deduce that 1974 spoils did not get to the money find spot after all. Simply put, Palmer was wrong when he said that they did.

You said the amount of spoils put on TB in 1974 was small. I quoted from a document saying it was: "material was deposited on the beach area of the FAZIO Brothers’ Farm between August 19 through the 25th, 1974, ‘and consisted of 91,100 cubic yards of fill."

When you finally get around to saying what you are saying or not saying, I hope you do so in as few words and videos as possible to eliminate confusion.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2020, 05:49:24 PM by georger »
 

Offline andrade1812

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5286 on: August 25, 2020, 10:23:12 PM »
I don't have a computer right now, and most of my Cooper stuff is boxed away. So, I shouldn't jump in because I don't have the patience to type on my phone. However, the name of the hydrologist was Jeff Bradley, who would have been in his early 30s or late twenties at the time. I tried to contact him with no result.

I had no point in mentioning it other than to say Bradley did work for the ACofE at the time. However, that's meaningless as it was Bradley (and Palmer and others ) trying to figure things out, and not the Army Corps of Engineers the organization.

Reading the FBI documents on Tina Bar is reminiscent of reading this thread on Tina Bar. A lot of reasonable disagreement and a missing smoking gun.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5287 on: August 25, 2020, 11:43:48 PM »
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I don't have a computer right now, and most of my Cooper stuff is boxed away. So, I shouldn't jump in because I don't have the patience to type on my phone. However, the name of the hydrologist was Jeff Bradley, who would have been in his early 30s or late twenties at the time. I tried to contact him with no result.

I had no point in mentioning it other than to say Bradley did work for the ACofE at the time. However, that's meaningless as it was Bradley (and Palmer and others ) trying to figure things out, and not the Army Corps of Engineers the organization.

Reading the FBI documents on Tina Bar is reminiscent of reading this thread on Tina Bar. A lot of reasonable disagreement and a missing smoking gun.

Jeffrey Bradley - good grief. YES! Of course! He is listed as being a Hydrologist.  Jeffrey B. BRADLEY, Hydraulic Engineer, U. S. Army Corps of Engineers, Portland District, telephone xxxxxxxx, was contacted regarding the possibility that bait money found near the FAZIO Brothers’ farm on February 10, 1980, could have been brought to that area by a river feeding the Columbia River from the north.  He was the person who offered up the Washougal as a possible source.

'Mr. BRADLEY advised the only likely river feeding the Columbia River within the above described drop zone that would be capable of moving several bundles of money or a package about L6x16x4 inches to the Columbia River would be the Washougal River. '

Palmer, geologist. Bradley, hydrologist. BECHLY, Civil Engineer Chief , Waterways Maintenance Branch, Navigation Division, U.S. Army Engineer District, testitifed on the dredging records.

This all connects and makes sense now.   Thank you Andrade. I hope you dont mind I asked!  Take care. I have his file and report. Bradley doesn;t say anything in his report about strata Palmer found.  ;)

Thanks ...
« Last Edit: August 25, 2020, 11:59:58 PM by georger »
 
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5288 on: August 25, 2020, 11:45:35 PM »
June 28 1974 photo...you can hardly find Tbar...flood peak was June 22 1974

Had to put in Google drive...file to big..

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Offline EU

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5289 on: August 26, 2020, 09:58:33 AM »
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June 28 1974 photo...you can hardly find Tbar...flood peak was June 22 1974

Had to put in Google drive...file to big..

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The file is locked.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5290 on: August 26, 2020, 02:29:20 PM »
Its a shared link?
 

Offline EU

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5291 on: August 26, 2020, 02:45:16 PM »
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Its a shared link?

No, it's saying that I need to request access. You need to make it viewable without special access.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5292 on: August 26, 2020, 05:48:18 PM »
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Its a shared link?

No, it's saying that I need to request access. You need to make it viewable without special access.

You need a Google account. You need to sign in. Nothing anyone can do to change access. Google is as Google does!  :o
« Last Edit: August 26, 2020, 05:50:41 PM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5293 on: August 26, 2020, 08:28:46 PM »
 i was thinking an account would be needed. You can see it georger?..

Internet down again...seems to happen a lot lately...
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5294 on: August 26, 2020, 08:36:15 PM »
Cant post pics right now but have a pic showing dredging north portion of cat island..sept. 9, 1975