Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find  (Read 1558611 times)

Offline Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5175 on: August 22, 2020, 06:00:02 PM »
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Still doesn't make sense the spoil material made it that far north and up away from the tide line?

ANYONE INTERESTED IN HELPING TO FINANCE A LAND SURVEY OF TINA BAR?

As Shutter points out above, there are a lot of things about Tina Bar and the money find location that don't make sense. 

I have just checked out some land surveyors in the Vancouver/Portland area and it appears that an accurate survey of that area, both horizontally and vertically, could be conducted by the latest iteration of GPS equipment for something on the order of $1000 or maybe less.

The accuracy of the equipment would be on the order of one centimeter.  Also, the surveyors could use drone aircraft to film the entire area.

But advance planning is ABSOLUTELY MANDATORY in a matter like this.  And the end result MUST HAVE SOME RELEVANCE to the search for DB Cooper.  An accurate survey could greatly reduce the online bickering here and get this matter on a fact based track. 

We are fortunate to have some member on this thread, such as Kermit, who live in that area and might be willing to be the on-scene manager/coordinator for this.

Any comments.

   
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5176 on: August 22, 2020, 06:51:44 PM »
I'm not so sure a current survey will tell us anything...the sand was dumped on the beach in 74..perhaps a survey was done prior. some surveys are public record.

One document I have shows the elevation around the containment pond to be 26 feet according to a FEMA flood map dated August 19, 1986...this map should give us the details needed..what I have is a reference from the map..

It's labeled as FEMA map 530024 026 C, August 19, 1986...
 

Offline EU

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    • ERIC ULIS: From the History Channel
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5177 on: August 22, 2020, 07:03:34 PM »
I don't know that there is much of a dispute regarding the location of the money find spot anymore. Rather, one person in particular is claiming that the GPS co-ords that I provided show the wrong spot on a 1990 map. I don't really know or care about that.

What I do know is that if you want to see the precise money find spot today, punch 45.718551, -122.759407 into Google Earth and you're going to see the spot. I cannot speak to the accuracy of overlaying pictures from 30 years ago onto the GPS co-ords I have provided.

Nonetheless, the old gravel road doesn't lie. And it didn't move.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5178 on: August 22, 2020, 08:11:13 PM »
R99 is talking about a survey for elevation purposes if not mistaken..I'm not sure if they can be determined in 1971 and 1980. this will give a better idea where the tides can reach. we have some photo's showing high waterlines but what about basic unrecorded levels that could reach? Fazio made a claim the spot was underwater often. this has nothing to do with flood years..
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5179 on: August 22, 2020, 08:12:55 PM »
The picture on your site appears to show the older path. it can be seen on maps now along with past years..I never noticed that back in 2016..
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5180 on: August 22, 2020, 11:56:42 PM »
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The question I asked Eric earlier on the phone was why did they tear up so much sand south of the money location?

Palmer placed a second comparison trench ~25 yards to the south of the Ingram find site, to compare strata depths at two sites.

[During his work in areas adjacent to the Ingram site, Professor PALMER found that the clay lump (dredged) sand ranged from a depth of approx four feet in a second trench 25 yards from the money site trench, to only two feet in the money site trench. Palmer advised that this was due the different elevations of the beach at the time the dredging occurred and how sand was spread out by tractors.] [Palmer Report p$]

Palmer says he found dredging spoils in both trenches; Tom Kaye says Palmer miss-identified his strata, there were no dredging spoils in either of his trenches, because Tom says for one thing dredging spoils at this distance from the original 1974 dredging spoil mound, is impossible. USGS hydrologists consulted say Tom Kaye is wrong on this point!

With the decision to dig a second comparison trench, SA McPheters organized a crew that raked and dug the area adjacent to the comparison trench; seen in photos, which accounts for the torn up sand in the southern trench location...
« Last Edit: August 23, 2020, 12:04:27 AM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5181 on: August 23, 2020, 12:16:52 AM »
My understanding is the dredge layer thins out as it approaches the river, correct? I believe several feet is marked high above the tide line? what kind of power could of done this if it wasn't put there and how did it last so long after the dredging in 1974? the beach constantly erodes.

A very large area can be seen of sand being dug up south of the find..a huge area. it doesn't appear to be consistent with digging a trench east to west. it's hard to calculate since none of the lines drawn are equal but appears to be 80-100 foot wide of disturbed sand. several agents can be seen still digging up the area...
« Last Edit: August 23, 2020, 12:31:44 AM by Shutter »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5182 on: August 23, 2020, 12:31:42 AM »
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My understanding is the dredge layer thins out as it approaches the river, correct? I believe several feet is marked high above the tide line? what kind of power could of done this if it wasn't put there and how did it last so long after the dredging in 1974? the beach constantly erodes.

A very large area can be seen of sand being dug up south of the find..a huge area. it doesn't appear to be consistent with digging a trench east to west. it's hard to calculate since none of the lines drawn are equal but appears to be 80-100 foot wide of disturbed sand.

That would be correct: all strata thin as they approach the river, especially the upper layers due to erosion. But, if Tom is right and Plamer's dredge layer is in fact a clay layer that underlies the whole river, then that layer would not thin out ... might even get thicker. But, Palmer found a layer BELOW his dredging layer! See Palmer strata chart attached ...

Tom cant have it both ways. Tom says Palmer's dredging layer is actually a dense clay layer that goes down and undergirds the whole layer ... deeper than bottom sediments. There cant be any layer deeper than that. But Palmer found a light colored sand layer BELOW his clay lump dredging layer. Somebody is wrong.

I think there is a 50% chance Tom is wrong and Palmer was right.

But according to Tom there cant be any dredging clay this far north of the 1974 dredging spoil site. Palmer very clearly said there was - so how did it get say 500 feet borth of its original location?!   
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5183 on: August 23, 2020, 12:33:19 AM »
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My understanding is the dredge layer thins out as it approaches the river, correct? I believe several feet is marked high above the tide line? what kind of power could of done this if it wasn't put there and how did it last so long after the dredging in 1974? the beach constantly erodes.

A very large area can be seen of sand being dug up south of the find..a huge area. it doesn't appear to be consistent with digging a trench east to west. it's hard to calculate since none of the lines drawn are equal but appears to be 80-100 foot wide of disturbed sand. several agents can be seen still digging up the area...

Thats the area oif the comparison trench and McPheters crew's raking site... south of the Ingram find grid.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5184 on: August 23, 2020, 12:34:03 AM »
I'm not really concerned about Tom saying it was the clay layer of the bar as much as how it could be from the dredge period? how did so much get that high on the beach and remain over the years..even heavy rain will start washing it away..
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5185 on: August 23, 2020, 12:35:14 AM »
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My understanding is the dredge layer thins out as it approaches the river, correct? I believe several feet is marked high above the tide line? what kind of power could of done this if it wasn't put there and how did it last so long after the dredging in 1974? the beach constantly erodes.

A very large area can be seen of sand being dug up south of the find..a huge area. it doesn't appear to be consistent with digging a trench east to west. it's hard to calculate since none of the lines drawn are equal but appears to be 80-100 foot wide of disturbed sand. several agents can be seen still digging up the area...

Thats the area oif the comparison trench and McPheters crew's raking site... south of the Ingram find grid.


This is the same area some of the FBI photo's show them digging up the area..I don't see where raking would leave that effect or distrupt as much as it shows..
« Last Edit: August 23, 2020, 12:36:08 AM by Shutter »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5186 on: August 23, 2020, 12:37:22 AM »
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I'm not really concerned about Tom saying it was the clay layer of the bar as much as how it could be from the dredge period? how did so much get that high on the beach and remain over the years..even heavy rain will start washing it away..

The layer Palmer identified is under two thick top layers .... the dredge spoils Palmer identified are 23" below the surface so they have been covered/protected not subject to erosion...

 
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5187 on: August 23, 2020, 12:39:01 AM »
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My understanding is the dredge layer thins out as it approaches the river, correct? I believe several feet is marked high above the tide line? what kind of power could of done this if it wasn't put there and how did it last so long after the dredging in 1974? the beach constantly erodes.

A very large area can be seen of sand being dug up south of the find..a huge area. it doesn't appear to be consistent with digging a trench east to west. it's hard to calculate since none of the lines drawn are equal but appears to be 80-100 foot wide of disturbed sand. several agents can be seen still digging up the area...

Thats the area oif the comparison trench and McPheters crew's raking site... south of the Ingram find grid.


This is the same area some of the FBI photo's show them digging up the area..I don't see where raking would leave that effect or distrupt as much as it shows..

Yes its well turned up... raking, digging, hoeing ...

And, no confirmed reports of fragments found there either!
« Last Edit: August 23, 2020, 12:40:18 AM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5188 on: August 23, 2020, 12:41:52 AM »
It doesn't explain how so much sand from the spoil got above the waterline to move that much?
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5189 on: August 23, 2020, 12:45:19 AM »
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It doesn't explain how so much sand from the spoil got above the waterline to move that much?

Likewise it doesnt explain why any dredging spoils are there at all, according to Tom.