Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find  (Read 1558710 times)

Offline Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5145 on: August 20, 2020, 01:21:24 PM »
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What I'm asking is geography. Is the spot Eric says is the money find location the same as where the feds put a stake in the ground?

Yes, that's kind of the whole idea. I haven't had time to completely look over Fly's findings but see problems..it shows a rock that isn't a rock and would be visible in the helicopter view. looks more like a tent. it's square and only shows from 90 to 94. 1990 is 10 years later and things change.

That bent tree in FlyJack's photos seems to be leaning the wrong way from the one in the Brian Ingram photos and the one with the FBI agents in the background.  And that "rock" seems to be at vastly different distances from the tree in question in the different photos.  In fact, the "rock" seems to bear a distinct resemblance to a backhoe or other such implement in the picture with all the agents digging.  Compare things for size based on what appears to be a pickup truck just above the "rock".
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5146 on: August 20, 2020, 03:05:28 PM »
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Quote
What I'm asking is geography. Is the spot Eric says is the money find location the same as where the feds put a stake in the ground?

Yes, that's kind of the whole idea. I haven't had time to completely look over Fly's findings but see problems..it shows a rock that isn't a rock and would be visible in the helicopter view. looks more like a tent. it's square and only shows from 90 to 94. 1990 is 10 years later and things change.

That bent tree in FlyJack's photos seems to be leaning the wrong way from the one in the Brian Ingram photos and the one with the FBI agents in the background.  And that "rock" seems to be at vastly different distances from the tree in question in the different photos.  In fact, the "rock" seems to bear a distinct resemblance to a backhoe or other such implement in the picture with all the agents digging.  Compare things for size based on what appears to be a pickup truck just above the "rock".

Here is FJ's location pic - and the Brian photos. The bent tree is leaning to the right in both photos. I think there is optical foreshortening in the news photos of Brian which makes the incline look steeper than it was; several people have commented about that before.

Can somebody get Tom to comment? He has seen the FBI excavation photos . ..
« Last Edit: August 20, 2020, 03:20:35 PM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5147 on: August 20, 2020, 03:25:07 PM »
A mirror image of Brian would be this !  But that changes the location of the trees with respect to Brian...
« Last Edit: August 20, 2020, 03:26:59 PM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5148 on: August 20, 2020, 06:06:17 PM »
What ever the object is has been there a couple years..I don't think it's machinery. it's large what ever it is but it's not a rock..the tree in the background matches the angle shown in the photo of Brian..

Measuring the object shows it at around 15 foot by 15 foot..you have to keep in mind that smaller objects will be hard to see from sat pics. even space will fool you thinking it's 10 feet when it's actually 40 feet..since it appears to be square by size I go back to wondering if it's some sort of tent or temporary shack fishermen use..this was still way before running everyone off the property if I'm correct?
« Last Edit: August 20, 2020, 06:28:38 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5149 on: August 20, 2020, 08:44:11 PM »
Coords seem to be questionable on sites. I went to Vancouvers website and got the coords for the location and put them into Google and it showed about 260 feet west and 160 south of the money location..the same happened when I tried to match the coords with one of the buildings..
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5150 on: August 20, 2020, 10:06:56 PM »
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Coords seem to be questionable on sites. I went to Vancouvers website and got the coords for the location and put them into Google and it showed about 260 feet west and 160 south of the money location..the same happened when I tried to match the coords with one of the buildings..

The coordinate problem may be easily explained.  Prior to about 1983, the horizontal coordinate system was the NAD29 datum system.  In 1984, the coordinate system was changed to what was called the WGS84 datum system.  There are online programs for converting from one system to another.  Based on my checking into this about 10 years ago, I think the change was about 190 feet in an east-to-west direction (along the latitude lines) and about 10 feet in a south-to-north direction (along the longitudinal lines) in the Portland area.  I don't remember which directions the moves were but they were so small that I could easily ignore them for what I was doing at that time.

Also the vertical datum was changed about the same time as the above, but it resulted in only a foot or two change in the Portland area.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5151 on: August 20, 2020, 11:29:13 PM »
Historical aerials has a 90 and 94 pic..here you can see how square the object is..both sites measured it similar Historical Aerials puts it at 13 x 13 feet... the car in the background overpowers the size when it should be close in size. also casting a shadow to the north..

when you look further down the beach south you see shacks and similar objects that disappear over the years..
« Last Edit: August 20, 2020, 11:32:17 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5152 on: August 20, 2020, 11:52:18 PM »
How would 1984 affect the system today...internet wasn't born yet.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5153 on: August 21, 2020, 12:58:11 AM »
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How would 1984 affect the system today...internet wasn't born yet.

The Internet didn't have anything to do with it.  The longitude and latitude values for a given point changed between the NAD29 and WGS84 systems.  But in the Portland/Vancouver the changes were quite small as stated.

Check the system that whatever map you are looking at used.  Then if you want to find the coordinates on another map that used a different system, there are programs online that can determine the differences between the two systems and calculate the new longitude and latitude values.
 

Offline Tom Kaye

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5154 on: August 21, 2020, 01:15:17 AM »
All,
I am currently in the field chasing dinosaur bones in MT and am away from my computer. Eric and Fly have both emailed me about the money location. Looking at everyone's photos and comparing them to our analysis, it seems that we are all putting the location in the same small area. Eric thought my coordinates were off by 200+ feet but I am now thinking this is a GPS geodetic coordinate problem as recently mentioned above. I have looked at all the photos in the FBI archive and it was never obvious where the "stake" was that marked the exact find spot. I don't think we can know the location to better than 10-20 ft.

As someone who digs up stuff for research, I can tell you that the FBI did a crap job with the excavation. I believe that the money fragments were local to the bundles and the fragments got worked into the sand at different levels when the agents plowed through everything looking for the rest of the cash.

For the purposes of coming up with theories I think the area everyone has settled on is good enough. I am very glad to see the discussion proceed on facts rather than idle speculation. :)

Tom Kaye
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5155 on: August 21, 2020, 01:23:19 AM »
Perhaps, Tom, you could lay out a plan on how YOU would have done the money recovery. I'd love to see it. I'll cut and paste this into an email so you can ponder this out there in Dino Land.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5156 on: August 21, 2020, 04:24:14 AM »
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All,
I am currently in the field chasing dinosaur bones in MT and am away from my computer. Eric and Fly have both emailed me about the money location. Looking at everyone's photos and comparing them to our analysis, it seems that we are all putting the location in the same small area. Eric thought my coordinates were off by 200+ feet but I am now thinking this is a GPS geodetic coordinate problem as recently mentioned above. I have looked at all the photos in the FBI archive and it was never obvious where the "stake" was that marked the exact find spot. I don't think we can know the location to better than 10-20 ft.

As someone who digs up stuff for research, I can tell you that the FBI did a crap job with the excavation. I believe that the money fragments were local to the bundles and the fragments got worked into the sand at different levels when the agents plowed through everything looking for the rest of the cash.

For the purposes of coming up with theories I think the area everyone has settled on is good enough. I am very glad to see the discussion proceed on facts rather than idle speculation. :)

Tom Kaye

I concur but am still reserving judgement about the socalled fragments. Thanks for posting .... take care.   
« Last Edit: August 21, 2020, 04:28:15 AM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5157 on: August 21, 2020, 04:40:18 AM »
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Perhaps, Tom, you could lay out a plan on how YOU would have done the money recovery. I'd love to see it. I'll cut and paste this into an email so you can ponder this out there in Dino Land.

More to the point:  how and who planned, organized, and supervised the 1980 excavation which did occur at Tina Bar among the three offices involved? How were duties assigned and to whom? How was raking vs digging organised. Who was in charge of what? Who suggested or mandated methods to be used? Who supervised certain areas or functions? Palmer? Who decided that screening and sifting be done? The whole thing was ad hoc, came up suddenly, done quickly ... somebody brought some kind of experience/organisation to the excavation. Hint: Dorwin brought some experience in archaeological methods to the task - that I know for a fact. . . . I think the time and opportunity has expired for you to revisit this Bruce! Maybe Tom knows some of the history involved. Tom may have even seen some 302s relevant to these issues ?   
« Last Edit: August 21, 2020, 04:47:46 AM by georger »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5158 on: August 21, 2020, 05:00:21 AM »
Digging more deeply into the structure of the dig is a worthy effort. We might see more important info in the 302s. I came across one doc that said the Seattle Assistant SAC became the PIO on site on Thursday. I'll keep my antennae up for this as I go through the 3rd Ed review.

Other issues are still extant, too: such as the KATU-TV videos, who shut them down and why; the big shards that went into plasticine envelopes but were never seen in the Seattle FO evidence trove, etc.
 

Offline EU

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5159 on: August 21, 2020, 08:30:35 AM »
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All,
I am currently in the field chasing dinosaur bones in MT and am away from my computer. Eric and Fly have both emailed me about the money location. Looking at everyone's photos and comparing them to our analysis, it seems that we are all putting the location in the same small area. Eric thought my coordinates were off by 200+ feet but I am now thinking this is a GPS geodetic coordinate problem as recently mentioned above. I have looked at all the photos in the FBI archive and it was never obvious where the "stake" was that marked the exact find spot. I don't think we can know the location to better than 10-20 ft.

As someone who digs up stuff for research, I can tell you that the FBI did a crap job with the excavation. I believe that the money fragments were local to the bundles and the fragments got worked into the sand at different levels when the agents plowed through everything looking for the rest of the cash.

For the purposes of coming up with theories I think the area everyone has settled on is good enough. I am very glad to see the discussion proceed on facts rather than idle speculation. :)

Tom Kaye

I will start out by stating that no one gets to decide where the money find spot is. It is where it is. Period.  Non-negotiable. Full stop.

My job has been to determine where the spot actually was, and the co-ordinates that I put forward is the spot. Again, not because I said so. Rather, because that is precisely where the money was found in 1980.

Now, Tom is just plain wrong when he says that the spots we identified are in the "same small area." To the contrary, Tom's website actually has two different  spots identified with yellow pins. On his "Tena Bar Money Find" page, Figure 1, the yellow pin denotes a spot approximately 220 feet SSE of the actual spot. On the same page, Figure 3, the yellow pin denotes a spot approximately 245 feet S of the actual spot. Likewise, the GPS coordinates he provides on the same page are also off by approximately 245 feet S from the actual spot.

These differences are enormous, especially when considering the elevation of these spots and how they were affected by flooding or the spreading of dredge spoils.

The only reason we're having this debate is because some--from the DZ site--attempt to be relevant. And, the only way for them to be relevant is to troll my research and try to discredit everything that I've accomplished--History Channel show, CooperCon, DB Cooper Boat Tour, DB Cooper Bill Initiative, YouTube videos, Sheridan Peterson work, Western Flight Path, Placard Drift analysis (with R99), and now, the money find spot.

Not to put too fine a point on this discussion, but the money was found very near 45.718551, -122.759407. That is a fact. Therefore, for the purposes of advancing this case we should probably move on from stupid talk that is synonymous with lengthy debate as to whether the Earth is actually flat and not round.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2020, 09:06:04 AM by EU »
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