Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find  (Read 1358079 times)

FLYJACK

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #510 on: January 11, 2015, 03:29:28 PM »
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Here ya go.... ;D

That image is at low water level in the lake, I have seen pics of it completely full/flooded, not sure about fall/winter '71 though.

At full water level Smith Lake is probably the largest water body close to the flight path.

Where exactly did the plane turn/jog south near Hayden,, most maps are too general.
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #511 on: January 11, 2015, 04:05:23 PM »
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Smith lake is a possibility, but it's a few miles west of the the FBI flight path. you also have to justify the time frame in order to prove he dropped into the lake. the whole area is suspect in my opinion. the plane crosses Hayden island on the east side.

That's actually not a bad idea IF you can stretch the timeline. It is clearly in the Columbia drainage basin.

Never said it wasn't, but it's a little further west. you need to justify the plane that far west. Carr gives a time frame past this position. all the water in this area is what I've been stating for a while now. if one chooses to accept he jumped in the area of the Columbia, all of these water holes become potential targets for landing.

If the timeline is inaccurate, are we strectching anything?  :-\

The one almost certain 'weak link' in whatever flight path you chose, assuming the Eastern Washougal route never happened, is the timeline. Depending on whose version you accept the time and position of "8:05" is a benchmark and central to everything else. Why? Because Rataczak pins everything to his last communication with Cooper at 8:05, whatever their position was when 8:05 happened. (If I understand this matter correctly, almost everyone accepts a plus/minus 1 minute error in the Transcript timeline).

So, the issue if when did he bail after 8:05 and where were they when that happened.

It's on that issue that we have differing accounts and there is literally nothing in the Transcript to clarify this. All Rat says is "5 to 10 minutes after 8:05". If the Anderson interviews are real, Anderson says it had to be later than Rat says because "we discussed it and nobody had called it in yet!". "We waited", Anderson says. Cooper called in again at least once after 8:05 and asked the plane to be slowed and stabilized. All of the above is eating time after the benchmark 8:05. The key event is the "pressure event - bump". When exactly did that happened and when was it reported ...

The FBI etal places his estimated jump at 8:11. Anderson, if his interview is real, says 8:12 to even 8:16 is not an unreasonable estimate given everything else and the "confusion-delay in reporting" that was going on at the time.

If you extend the jump time to something beyond 8:11 now we are getting close to the Columbia River basin system which could bring Cooper money to Tina Bar by natural means. There is "no" reason to believe the money arrived on Tina Bar by any other means! Therefore, the flight path, drop time & position, and the money at Tina Bar are all connected by facts of causation. One thing caused the other. It's old fashioned physics.

One thing that strengthens the idea of "causation throughout this hijacking" for me, is Cooper himself. This was a fairly well managed hijacking as hijackings go, with not too many lose strings and unexpected events, with Cooper delivering messages continually to the cockpit managing just about every facet of this hijacking he could control including slowing and stabilising the plane to accommodate a jump, right up to the time he jumped (according to Anderson). That level of management strengthens the whole notion of Causation working throughout this hijacking which then explains all of the physical facts of the crime from the placard on the ground near Toutle to the money at Tina Bar, all connected to the general timeline, flight path options, and Cooper specific actions resulting in evidence on the ground.

The crime and the events of the crime are simple, in my estimation. The personalities looking at the crime is what has become very complex. This crime and what happened is not rocket science - just the opposite! It is the people dealing with this crime and the lack of direct data available, that has lead to complexity, and 99.999% of that has nothing to do with the facts of the crime itself or with Cooper himself.

There isn't an un-natural event in this whole story. The whole thing is "by natural means" and that includes Cooper himself on that plane.

This whole story is a textbook case of classical Causation in action, from start to finish. I have yet to see one un-natural fact in this whole case ... if we had all of those facts!
         

 
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #512 on: January 11, 2015, 04:26:12 PM »
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Here ya go.... ;D

That image is at low water level in the lake, I have seen pics of it completely full/flooded, not sure about fall/winter '71 though.

At full water level Smith Lake is probably the largest water body close to the flight path.

Where exactly did the plane turn/jog south near Hayden,, most maps are too general.

usgs 1975.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2015, 04:33:12 PM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #513 on: January 11, 2015, 04:29:05 PM »
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Here ya go.... ;D

That image is at low water level in the lake, I have seen pics of it completely full/flooded, not sure about fall/winter '71 though.

At full water level Smith Lake is probably the largest water body close to the flight path.

Where exactly did the plane turn/jog south near Hayden,, most maps are too general.

It wasn't meant for anything but a reference for Georger. didn't notice the water levels.  :o
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #514 on: January 11, 2015, 05:25:05 PM »
so, if there was a no pull jump at say 20:17:30 between the waypoints, on the black path, close to I5 on Hayden, as the path turned south, a 200lb object would travel for 26 seconds and 1.24 miles straight at Smith Lake. I know these maps are not great and the position between the waypoints is an extrapolation.

It looks like about 1.5 miles..

 

Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #515 on: January 11, 2015, 06:09:17 PM »
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so, if there was a no pull jump at say 20:17:30 between the waypoints, on the black path, close to I5 on Hayden, as the path turned south, a 200lb object would travel for 26 seconds and 1.24 miles straight at Smith Lake. I know these maps are not great and the position between the waypoints is an extrapolation.

It looks like about 1.5 miles..



The release of the NWA papers to the WSHM a few months back indicates that the airliner was actually at Tualatin at 8:18 PM PST.  That point is 25 DME miles (nautical miles) from what is now the Battleground VORTAC and about 14 DME miles further south than the point indicated on your attached map for 8:18.

The paper copy of that report was transmitted through the ARINC teletypewriter system and time stamped at 8:22 PM.  The voice call from the airliner to the ARINC system was patched through to the NWA office at SEA and one report indicates it was actually made at 8:18 PM which fits the overall situation much better.
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #516 on: January 11, 2015, 06:19:34 PM »
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so, if there was a no pull jump at say 20:17:30 between the waypoints, on the black path, close to I5 on Hayden, as the path turned south, a 200lb object would travel for 26 seconds and 1.24 miles straight at Smith Lake. I know these maps are not great and the position between the waypoints is an extrapolation.

It looks like about 1.5 miles..


The release of the NWA papers to the WSHM a few months back indicates that the airliner was actually at Tualatin at 8:18 PM PST.  That point is 25 DME miles (nautical miles) from what is now the Battleground VORTAC and about 14 DME miles further south than the point indicated on your attached map for 8:18.

The paper copy of that report was transmitted through the ARINC teletypewriter system and time stamped at 8:22 PM.  The voice call from the airliner to the ARINC system was patched through to the NWA office at SEA and one report indicates it was actually made at 8:18 PM which fits the overall situation much better.

Interesting, I was just indicating the south turn in the flight path on the map. Is there an issue with the flight path near I5 and Hayden Island between the points?
 

Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #517 on: January 11, 2015, 06:44:05 PM »
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so, if there was a no pull jump at say 20:17:30 between the waypoints, on the black path, close to I5 on Hayden, as the path turned south, a 200lb object would travel for 26 seconds and 1.24 miles straight at Smith Lake. I know these maps are not great and the position between the waypoints is an extrapolation.

It looks like about 1.5 miles..


The release of the NWA papers to the WSHM a few months back indicates that the airliner was actually at Tualatin at 8:18 PM PST.  That point is 25 DME miles (nautical miles) from what is now the Battleground VORTAC and about 14 DME miles further south than the point indicated on your attached map for 8:18.

The paper copy of that report was transmitted through the ARINC teletypewriter system and time stamped at 8:22 PM.  The voice call from the airliner to the ARINC system was patched through to the NWA office at SEA and one report indicates it was actually made at 8:18 PM which fits the overall situation much better.

Interesting, I was just indicating the south turn in the flight path on the map. Is there an issue with the flight path near I5 and Hayden Island between the points?

In order for the airliner to be at the 25 DME mile point south of the present day Battleground VORTAC at 8:18 PM (as it said it was), it would have to take a direct short cut from about Toledo to that point.  That means it would bypass Portland on the west side and fly almost directly over Tina Bar.  I don't think the flight crew would fly over Portland under any circumstances with a bomb on board and a warning from the FAA Chief Psychologist that Cooper would probably blow up the airliner when he jumped.
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #518 on: January 11, 2015, 09:00:22 PM »
Assuming the initial FBI flight path for now, I upped the airspeed slightly to 170knots as the pilot docs state near that time, that ups the distance to 1.26 mi, checking an accurate map that is the distance from the I5 on Hayden to Smith Lake. So, IF the original path is correct and the plane turned south near the I5 and there was a no pull, then on paper he could have reached Smith Lake.

Has anybody looked at Smith Lake, I searched the other site and nothing..
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #519 on: January 11, 2015, 09:40:15 PM »
I'm including a map showing the location of the path (blue line) you can see it barely reaches the tip of Hayden island. the green line is V-23, and the straight red line is the distance from the path to Smith lake which is a little over 3 miles, or 2.62 Nautical miles. the map was made by Snowmman

It's a little too far west to have hit this water hole. the odds are greater for the Columbia where the plane obviously crossed. Smith lake is surrounded by rivers, why pick this area? why exclude surrounding waters?

This is of course if the path is correct. even if I give an error of .5, it still can't reach the area.... 8)
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #520 on: January 11, 2015, 11:11:17 PM »
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I'm including a map showing the location of the path (blue line) you can see it barely reaches the tip of Hayden island. the green line is V-23, and the straight red line is the distance from the path to Smith lake which is a little over 3 miles, or 2.62 Nautical miles. the map was made by Snowmman

It's a little too far west to have hit this water hole. the odds are greater for the Columbia where the plane obviously crossed. Smith lake is surrounded by rivers, why pick this area? why exclude surrounding waters?

This is of course if the path is correct. even if I give an error of .5, it still can't reach the area.... 8)

I did see Snowmmans map. He has the waypoints marked with straight lines in between, not the actual path, the path in between the waypoints is likely smoothed in reality, as the black line on the FBI map is. Note the black line and green one on the FBI/Snowmman map above differ. There is no actual flight path data in between. But it is reasonable to assume the black line is more likely. It looks like it came close to or over the I5 on Haydon Is, but we just don't know exactly where it was in between those two waypoints. If you smooth the path it puts the plane about 1.25 - 1.5 miles from Smith Lake, within the distance for a no pull landing (on paper). I don't mean to exclude surrounding waters.  Nash's Game Theory,, don't go for the Blonde.

Smith Lake is a significantly large body of water, if flooded in 71, wider than the Columbia is across
I can't find this theory explored previously, unless someone has info
It explains a possible delayed/partial deposit on TBAR
Evidence might still be there. Unlikely if he landed in the Columbia

Any abandoned vehicles around there in 71,, parking tickets issued.. maybe he had a getaway car stashed..
« Last Edit: January 11, 2015, 11:38:04 PM by FLYJACK »
 

Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #521 on: January 11, 2015, 11:38:33 PM »
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Assuming the initial FBI flight path for now, I upped the airspeed slightly to 170knots as the pilot docs state near that time, that ups the distance to 1.26 mi, checking an accurate map that is the distance from the I5 on Hayden to Smith Lake. So, IF the original path is correct and the plane turned south near the I5 and there was a no pull, then on paper he could have reached Smith Lake.

Has anybody looked at Smith Lake, I searched the other site and nothing..

The flight crew had been advised by the NWA Performance Group in Minneapolis to fly at 170 Knots Indicated Air Speed since this was the speed for optimal range with the landing gear down, aft stairs down, and flaps set as Cooper wanted.  That 170 KIAS comes out as about 195 Knots True Air Speed.  Their headwind component as they went by Portland and heading almost straight South was about 15 to 20 Knots.  The resulting Ground Speed was about 175 to 180 Knots.  That is approximately 3 Nautical Miles per minute.
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #522 on: January 11, 2015, 11:45:29 PM »
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so, if there was a no pull jump at say 20:17:30 between the waypoints, on the black path, close to I5 on Hayden, as the path turned south, a 200lb object would travel for 26 seconds and 1.24 miles straight at Smith Lake. I know these maps are not great and the position between the waypoints is an extrapolation.

It looks like about 1.5 miles..


The release of the NWA papers to the WSHM a few months back indicates that the airliner was actually at Tualatin at 8:18 PM PST.  That point is 25 DME miles (nautical miles) from what is now the Battleground VORTAC and about 14 DME miles further south than the point indicated on your attached map for 8:18.

The paper copy of that report was transmitted through the ARINC teletypewriter system and time stamped at 8:22 PM.  The voice call from the airliner to the ARINC system was patched through to the NWA office at SEA and one report indicates it was actually made at 8:18 PM which fits the overall situation much better.

Interesting, I was just indicating the south turn in the flight path on the map. Is there an issue with the flight path near I5 and Hayden Island between the points?

In order for the airliner to be at the 25 DME mile point south of the present day Battleground VORTAC at 8:18 PM (as it said it was), it would have to take a direct short cut from about Toledo to that point.  That means it would bypass Portland on the west side and fly almost directly over Tina Bar.  I don't think the flight crew would fly over Portland under any circumstances with a bomb on board and a warning from the FAA Chief Psychologist that Cooper would probably blow up the airliner when he jumped.

Isn't this exactly what Dawson said the path was - straight line btwn Toledo and the tip of Hayden Island ?
 

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #523 on: January 11, 2015, 11:45:33 PM »
The distance from the tip of Hayden to I5 is approx. 1.3 miles. the plane doesn't cross I5 until it's too late for the Smith lake landing. the distance from I5 to Smith lake is approx. 1.3 miles.

It's a possibility, but the odds are low if you go by the map. the black lines where made by the FBI, and the green is what Sluggo copied over if I'm correct.

If we go by Carr stating they claimed the bump was felt around 5-10 minutes after the last contact with Cooper which was 8:05. this gives a time frame of no later than 8:15.

No cars were left at any airports. I believe they covered that. we have no proof Cooper knew where he was. that's the difference between Cooper, and McCoy. Cooper never asked anything about altitude, wind, location, nothing. McCoy stayed on top of things like he was a co-pilot. 

The area in question is a National Preserve. one can expect people around often. if Cooper was at the bottom, or the money was at the bottom. I doubt the flooding would cause it to surface. odds are low again that it was lying around the area waiting to be moved by a flood?


 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #524 on: January 11, 2015, 11:48:25 PM »
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Assuming the initial FBI flight path for now, I upped the airspeed slightly to 170knots as the pilot docs state near that time, that ups the distance to 1.26 mi, checking an accurate map that is the distance from the I5 on Hayden to Smith Lake. So, IF the original path is correct and the plane turned south near the I5 and there was a no pull, then on paper he could have reached Smith Lake.

Has anybody looked at Smith Lake, I searched the other site and nothing..

There would have been no reason to search the Smith Lake area. No searches reported there. H didn't search there but went north toward Woodland.

Smith Isle has not been discussed on Dropzone - mentioned but not discussed.