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This is all meaningless unless we have a control sample we can compare it to...

How would a control sample fit into this?  It is an absolutely safe assumption that nothing from the Columbia River was on those bills when they were given to Cooper.  And everything that has been identified so far is, according to Georger, consistent with the money find location.

Lets see your id's ?  What's your complaint?

How about you showing some id's for once?  Do you know how control samples are used?  You can answer with a simple "yes" or "no", but will probably just ignore the question.  If you think a control sample could be used here, then how about enlightening those who do actually know how control samples are used? 

I would want bills that had been exposed upstream, somewhere near where Tosaw believes Cooper splashed. I would want bills that had been in the Washougal. And I would want to test whether being in the bag or out of the bag made a difference.

My belief is the money was tightly packed in the bag at the bottom of the river until it hit the dredge. If the diatoms don't penetrate deep into the bag, then we would only expect to find diatoms once everything was ripped open.

Without some experiments to make comparisons, this whole discussion is futile.

The evidence you seek may already be available.  If Georger knows the diatom situation at the money find location then perhaps he knows it at other points in the Columbia watershed including the Washougal.

If my memory is correct, Tom Kaye has some river water from Tina Bar.  Also, I believe he has been conducting some experiments using actual money bills in soil samples from Tina Bar.  Further, I believe that he did some experiments using actual bills in which he placed them in the water somewhere (Washougal area?) with his contact information if anyone found them.  He may have received something back from those experiments that he could check for diatoms.

I doubt if the money could have been packed tight enough to prevent a representative sample of river water from saturating all the bills.  If the diatoms can only be seen with electron microscopes, then I suggest that they could probably pass through the bag materials.

Your stated belief is that the money arrived at Tina Bar by dredging.  The actual money find location appears to have been several hundred feet downstream from the location where the dredged materials were placed at Tina Bar.  Since three bundles were found within a handful of inches of each other and without any further restraints, I think a case can be made that they arrived at the same time and this strongly suggests that they didn't go through a dredge.   

Very likely, diatom experts are going to have to be consulted, in order to evaluate the diatoms Tom found a few days ago. There is nobody in this forum who is a diatom expert! Only experts can clarify some of the issues that are going to develop in this matter.

Why dont we allow Tom time and space to work this problem? 

I see somewhere between 5-7 separate diatom species in Tom's photos. Correct identification is important. Tom may need to do more sem work to better clarify what exists on this bill.

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I would want bills that had been exposed upstream, somewhere near where Tosaw believes Cooper splashed. I would want bills that had been in the Washougal. And I would want to test whether being in the bag or out of the bag made a difference.

My belief is the money was tightly packed in the bag at the bottom of the river until it hit the dredge. If the diatoms don't penetrate deep into the bag, then we would only expect to find diatoms once everything was ripped open.

Without some experiments to make comparisons, this whole discussion is futile.

The diatoms only arrived several days ago and already you want more samples from 500 different other places and directions - we dont even have the diatoms just found classified! What's the emergency? Likewise, this is 2020. The bills date back to 1971 and before! Why not require bills from the Seafirst bank dating back to 1950 be examined, to see what diatoms are on them - as a control !?

How about taking one thing at a time first and foremost? I see no value in a diatom stampede that splinters off in 500 new directions before the basic facts of the evidence just found is even known.   

Q: would diatoms found in different locations today, be the same diatoms found in those locations say 1950-1980?

Fact:   The Ingram money was NOT found in a canvas bag!

Suggestion: why dont you people learn something about diatoms first before blowing off about Cooper diatom theories !? The Ingram bill examined by Tom shows only 'pieces/broken stems' of A. Formosa, not whole or even parts of fully assembled Formosa? Why is that?   

Without some order, this whole discussion is futile and pointless.

Georger, how dare you speak to Andrade like this!  And you haven't even said a cross word to me so far today!  I'm feeling neglected!

This was actually more fun than I've had in a long time on this forum.

Bro hugs all around...

where do diatoms go? Diatom graveyard? What are diatoms? How do they work in the food chain? Are there diatoms in bottom sediments? If bottom sediments are dredged up and put on beaches, do those sediments contain old pieces of diatoms? Broken pieces of old silica skeletons? Why so many broken pieces of A formosa on 77's bill?

What is the difference between a dead and a living diatom? Were the diatoms found on 77's bill living or dead when they were deposited on the bill? 

Have you got a map of species distribution from say Camas up to the Lewis river ... ?

Do you see anything in the chart attached that you see in Tom's photos?

This was actually more fun than I've had in a long time on this forum.

Bro hugs all around...

If anyone has a number for a diatom expert, I'd be happy to give them a call.

And what would you ask?   

I was talking to a guy today that reminded me several people have collected sand samples at Tina Bar and other sites in that area, as a part of a long term monitoring program, going clear back to 1980 and earlier! There is a chance those sand samples still exist ... and could be examined for diatoms. There's your control samples, potentially! 

All,

I have a big update for the Cooper Vortex. 377 let me take additional larger samples from his Cooper bill. I went through the largest of the pieces tonight under the SEM and found additional “hair pin” specimens. While we found these previously, the tubes were not fully intact. The latest ones are in 3D and allowed for species ID. We did not however find any entirely intact specimens with multiple spines.

Georger previously identified the “hair pins” as the diatom Asterionella and Flyjack found out that Asterionella formosa was a winter species and A. japonica was a summer species. Flyjack came up with a list of species in the Columbia and I was able to come up with pictures for most but not all of them. So I caution that new evidence could overthrow these findings but the missing species seem to be rare or contested. It turns out the only species we find on the bill is A. formosa, the winter species. The summer species japonica is WAY different than formosa so there is very little chance of confusion. So this data suggests that the money had a water transport phase that happened in winter and shortly thereafter was buried on Tena Bar.

Here is the reasoning. Given the spindly nature of these things and the fact we find a few of them together, means it is very unlikely that they would penetrate through the sand to get on the bills. One spine might get through but a couple would be highly unlikely to end up in the same place and we found several spots with multiple spines. If they could penetrate the sand we should find winter and summer species but we don’t.  We also know that it is unlikely they came from Brian Ingram washing them off in the river because he was there during the summer.

This is the first evidence based timing information that constrains when the money arrived on Tena Bar and the first new evidence since the money was found that I can think of. It supports a water transport phase before burial. It does not support a human burial on TB. It dismisses the dredge theory because that happens during the summer. It supports the timing of the jump in November but not for Cooper burying the money himself. It supports the western flight path theories where Cooper could have dropped some bundles during the free fall. It completely dismisses the multi-year transport across multiple waterways.

So this new diatom data supports a watery, winter arrival on Tena Bar. Bravo to 377 for letting me tear into his bill, he is now forever locked into the story of DB Cooper. This theory is based on research of several people, it would be good to get that verified. Pics to follow.

Tom Kaye

Pictures from 377's Cooper Bill