Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find  (Read 1433326 times)

Offline Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4545 on: January 19, 2020, 12:02:48 AM »
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A few points worth noting:

R99 and I agree on the Western Flight Path. However, we do not agree on Cooper surviving/dying, and the timing of the flight to some degree.

Yet, we have never had a solitary disparaging word pass between the two of us.

Likewise, Bruce Smith and I are probably as far apart on the Cooper case as anyone here. Bruce is more of a conspiracy-type of guy, on the other hand, I am much more vanilla in my beliefs.

Yet again, Bruce and I have never had a solitary disparaging word pass between the two of us.

How is this possible?

This is possible because we are civilized and treat each other with respect.

May I suggest that those who struggle to act in a similar civilized and respectful manner try a little harder?

Better yet, if you feel that someone is flat out wrong about an assertion, perhaps you could present a cogent, fact-based, argument in an attempt to gain a new believer?

Take your own advice?

This isnt about 'believers'. This is about real evidence. This isnt one of your political campaigns for public office in AZ, CA, etc. Do you have a play for Broadway in the works?

Last time I checked nobody needed sermons on morality here. From you or R99!  Or Blevins - or FLYJACK/HBulljax.   

Burn this in your brain or on the tablet of your heart: """So, the Fazios said: " immediately before February 10, 1980 and self-buried." and the FBI records add: "after the last tide and they identified ( pointed to) the last high tide line."

Ask Tom Kaye or R99!

Georger, each of the people you love to criticize have been to Tina Bar on multiple occasions.  Why don't you get off your bippy and make your first visit there?
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4546 on: January 19, 2020, 12:15:10 AM »
I see nothing controversial about this, but it is new. I said above:

"In 1971, in the Portland area, all rescue, law enforcement entities, hospitals, corners, etc were contacted and asked to report anything that might be related to Cooper. After the money find in 1980 a brand new series of searches were launched, old records re-reviewed, etc... Himmelsbach personally managed all of these searches and he set up liaisons with area divers, salvage people, John Powelson at Aquatic Sports, etc and a network for reporting the results of people searching was created - again by Himmelsbach personally. Dorwin Schreuder worked on that team and it ran for a full two years before Tosaw was even on the scene. Out of all of these searches nothing ever surfaced related to Cooper. Searches included both searches on land and in the Columbia including at wing dams. "

Former Portland FBI agents report that some time during the excavation at Tina Bar, Himmelsbach began to expand the list of 'experts' he wanted to consult with in regard to the Ingram money find. These people included salvage experts, divers, river explorers of note, citizens who had expressed an interest in helping the FBI look for Cooper artifacts, etc. A network was set up through some of these people and the Portland FBI, to facilitate future reporting of searches being proposed  - John Powelson at Aquatic Sports played a role in keeping this network running and he reported to SA Himmelsbach.

A number of people had boated or driven to Tina Bar during the FBI excavation, and exchanged comments or left advice with FBI agents present. Some left their credentials. It became obvious to Ralph Himmelsbach and the Seattle office that further searching would commence by the public sector, after the conclusion of the FBI excavation. A system for handling reporting was now needed. Tosaw was not one of the people expressing an interest, in fact Tosaw would not join the searching until March 1982, or later, and Tosaw's first searches were on land not in the river.

These private searches had no connection to the Tosaw searches or with any of the people that ever worked for Tosaw. A list of names and the searches these people conducted has been collected.  Again many of these people reported to John Powelson, or to agents in the Portland FBI office. The Portland office was kept updated on all searches and results of searches. 

Some of these people are still alive, most not alive. Some people do not want their names released - getting permissions is a work in progress. In addition, we are not clear about exactly what role if any the Seattle Office played in this program. John Powelson played a central role in this program since he lived and worked at Portland. His business, Aquatic Sports was established clear back in 1966.

The Portland office and Ralph Himmelsbach were very aware of the public interest generated by the Ingram find and the excavation at Tina Bar. Something and somebody needed to channel that interest and to assist with further searches continuing, and the reporting of results back to law enforcement and the FBI. Ralph Himmelsbach decided he needed to get to know the salvage people and divers who regularly worked the Columbia. One of his first questions put to one of these experts was: "Tell me everything you know about how the river works"! Ralph knew that private searching would commence and he wanted to stay in the loop on that.           

*This program was not advertised publicly. By the time Tosaw joined in in 1982, two full years of searches had already been conducted by others.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2020, 04:44:42 AM by georger »
 

Offline andrade1812

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4547 on: January 19, 2020, 12:59:42 PM »
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Cooper's body, had he landed in the Columbia, would not have floated downstream very far. I talked to a rescue and body recovery diver who works on the Mississippi River in the Twin Cities of MN, and he looked up the water temperatures on that night. He told me, with water temperatures near 10 degrees Celsius, Cooper's body would have sunk to the bottom. When his crew does body recovery in such conditions, their search area is a product of water depth alone, not current. Cooper's body would have stayed at the bottom, around the point of entry, until water temperature rose in the spring. From there, Cooper's body would "pop" to the surface and start downstream with the river flow.

If the water temperature on the evening of the hijacking was 10 degrees Celsius, which translates to 50 degrees Fahrenheit, then it was warmer than the 44 degrees Fahrenheit air temperature that Portland International Airport reported at 8:00 PM that evening.

In determining if Cooper and his equipment would immediately sink, you must also consider the volumes of water displaced by the parachutes, the money bag, and anything else he had attached to his body.  While I have run these numbers years ago, I am not going to bother to look them up now.  So I leave that to you.  And just remember that it will take some time for the parachutes, money bag, etc., to get saturated and they will be displacing a cubic foot of water or so in the meantime, and that provides quite a bit of buoyancy.

Unless Cooper's body was snagged on something on the bottom of the river, it is going to be moving downstream.  There is absolutely no way that it will remain stationary otherwise.

The diver said Cooper would sink like a stone, and that the parachute would do very little. I don't think we talked about the money bag, I might contact him again. My assumption is the money bag would come loose at impact.
 
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Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4548 on: January 19, 2020, 01:56:32 PM »
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Cooper's body, had he landed in the Columbia, would not have floated downstream very far. I talked to a rescue and body recovery diver who works on the Mississippi River in the Twin Cities of MN, and he looked up the water temperatures on that night. He told me, with water temperatures near 10 degrees Celsius, Cooper's body would have sunk to the bottom. When his crew does body recovery in such conditions, their search area is a product of water depth alone, not current. Cooper's body would have stayed at the bottom, around the point of entry, until water temperature rose in the spring. From there, Cooper's body would "pop" to the surface and start downstream with the river flow.

If the water temperature on the evening of the hijacking was 10 degrees Celsius, which translates to 50 degrees Fahrenheit, then it was warmer than the 44 degrees Fahrenheit air temperature that Portland International Airport reported at 8:00 PM that evening.

In determining if Cooper and his equipment would immediately sink, you must also consider the volumes of water displaced by the parachutes, the money bag, and anything else he had attached to his body.  While I have run these numbers years ago, I am not going to bother to look them up now.  So I leave that to you.  And just remember that it will take some time for the parachutes, money bag, etc., to get saturated and they will be displacing a cubic foot of water or so in the meantime, and that provides quite a bit of buoyancy.

Unless Cooper's body was snagged on something on the bottom of the river, it is going to be moving downstream.  There is absolutely no way that it will remain stationary otherwise.

The diver said Cooper would sink like a stone, and that the parachute would do very little. I don't think we talked about the money bag, I might contact him again. My assumption is the money bag would come loose at impact.

How does the diver think the money got on Tina Bar?
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4549 on: January 19, 2020, 02:25:57 PM »
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Cooper's body, had he landed in the Columbia, would not have floated downstream very far. I talked to a rescue and body recovery diver who works on the Mississippi River in the Twin Cities of MN, and he looked up the water temperatures on that night. He told me, with water temperatures near 10 degrees Celsius, Cooper's body would have sunk to the bottom. When his crew does body recovery in such conditions, their search area is a product of water depth alone, not current. Cooper's body would have stayed at the bottom, around the point of entry, until water temperature rose in the spring. From there, Cooper's body would "pop" to the surface and start downstream with the river flow.

If the water temperature on the evening of the hijacking was 10 degrees Celsius, which translates to 50 degrees Fahrenheit, then it was warmer than the 44 degrees Fahrenheit air temperature that Portland International Airport reported at 8:00 PM that evening.

In determining if Cooper and his equipment would immediately sink, you must also consider the volumes of water displaced by the parachutes, the money bag, and anything else he had attached to his body.  While I have run these numbers years ago, I am not going to bother to look them up now.  So I leave that to you.  And just remember that it will take some time for the parachutes, money bag, etc., to get saturated and they will be displacing a cubic foot of water or so in the meantime, and that provides quite a bit of buoyancy.

Unless Cooper's body was snagged on something on the bottom of the river, it is going to be moving downstream.  There is absolutely no way that it will remain stationary otherwise.

The diver said Cooper would sink like a stone, and that the parachute would do very little. I don't think we talked about the money bag, I might contact him again. My assumption is the money bag would come loose at impact.

Cooper would not sink like a stone even if he was naked.  If he was a no-pull, he would probably be tumbling and doing about 180 MPH when he hit the water.  Depending on how he hit the water, feet or head first or belly flop or on his back, Cooper would probably be dead on impact and the air in his lungs would be exhaled.  For his body, it just depends on his body volume and weight.  But it would take some relatively short period of time for him to get to the bottom of the river regardless.  Based on the physical description of Cooper, my guess is that without any air in his lungs his body weight is going to be at least slightly greater than the weight of the water it displaces.  If he was obese and weighed 350 pounds, all bets would be off.

With the parachute and money bag attached to his body, it is again just a matter of the volume of the parachute (which was packed as hard as a rock) and the volume of the money bag plus their respective weights.  The weight of the river water was probably at least 60 pounds per cubic foot.  I think the money volume was about one-half of a cubic foot and the parachute volume would probably be at least that much also.  So they would probably provide some buoyancy for a period of time.  And everything is going to be moving downstream with the river water in the meantime.

As has been discussed previously, with almost 100 feet of parachute shroud lines missing from the reserve that was left on the airplane, Cooper could have wrapped the money bag at least 15 times and then securely tied it to himself or the parachute harness.  As a full disclosure, I think Cooper was a no-pull who landed on solid ground and within a few feet of the Columbia River's eastern water edge.  I think the money bag was damaged in the landing (popped like a balloon) and then, during a high water even that reached Cooper's impact site, the money bag and probably whatever remained of Cooper moved downstream and hung up briefly (maybe only minutes) at the point where three money packets were later found.

In connection with the above, remember that Natalie Wood was found completely submerged several hours after she went missing.  The only thing that kept her from sinking further was the fact that she had on a parka (or some such coat) which was completely submerged as well.  Reportedly, she was almost completely out of the parka and only barely held by it.     

 
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4550 on: January 19, 2020, 02:40:29 PM »
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Who here has actually discussed the money find with the Fazios? I have, face-to-face multiple times.

The following is my understanding of what Richard Fazio leans towards in terms of an explanation for the money find:

Richard told me that he tends to think that the money was washed up onto Tena Bar very soon before the money was found.

Here's the problem: The rubberbands.

The rubberbands prove that the money could not have washed up onto Tena Bar immediately before February 10, 1980 and self-buried.

Its important to get some facts straight, here.

1. The FBI files record that the older Fazio (Al?) said pretty much what Ulis says Richard told him:  'Richard Fazio, told me that he tends to think that the money was washed up onto Tena Bar very soon before the money was found.'. But the FBI file and agents interviewed add Al Fazio saying: 'came up with the last high tide ... and he pointed to the last high tide line' (which was still wet).

Why would the Fazios pick the 'high tide' as the time and circumstance of the money delivery? The answer was simple. Al Fazio told me (and the FBI) ... 'the tides bring most of the debris to the beach and leave it. Even large logs. It comes up with the tide and when the tide recedes it settles down and stays...' So it's the complete cycle of 'bringing and leaving material' that the tides represent. The tides, according to the Fazios, account for 99% of the debris left on Tina Bar. It makes sense they would apply the same principle to the money fund at Tina Bar.

2. Tom Kaye's experiments with rubber bands are confusing and incomplete, and have lead to false interpretations of exactly what the Ingrams saw and found. The Ingram descriptions (plural!) are contradictory and impossible. The chemistry and aging of rubber bands is very well understood as a 'melt transition cycle'. And, exposure to UV speeds up the melt-transition process. The chemical bonds that bond latex and sulfur together literally come apart when exposed to UV. Indeed, as Tom Kaye points out, ozone detectors used to be made using rubber bands! Look that up.

Short of the Tina Bar money having been delivered from the bank to Tina Bar the day before, there is no way in hell the rubber bands on the bundles could have been still pliable, holding the bundles together, AND 'crumbled to dust when touched' all at the same time. That's contradictory. Crystalized bands that crumble to the touch have no pliability and no holding power - period! Tom Kay didnt have to do any tests - the knowledge base on rubber band chemistry has been well known for 100+ years.

The sad fact is there could have been all kinds of forensic tests run on the band remnants which came along with the Ingram money, but none of those tests were performed! Some of those tests might have provided clues as to the history of the money since being given to Cooper, then winding up on Tina Bar.

But, the bands on the found money were not viable or had any holding power - whatever. They were not holding anything together! Remember, they crumbled to dust when touched. That is a band that has passed fully through its melt-transition phase.   
     
« Last Edit: January 19, 2020, 03:13:03 PM by georger »
 
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Offline andrade1812

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4551 on: January 19, 2020, 02:41:16 PM »
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Cooper's body, had he landed in the Columbia, would not have floated downstream very far. I talked to a rescue and body recovery diver who works on the Mississippi River in the Twin Cities of MN, and he looked up the water temperatures on that night. He told me, with water temperatures near 10 degrees Celsius, Cooper's body would have sunk to the bottom. When his crew does body recovery in such conditions, their search area is a product of water depth alone, not current. Cooper's body would have stayed at the bottom, around the point of entry, until water temperature rose in the spring. From there, Cooper's body would "pop" to the surface and start downstream with the river flow.

If the water temperature on the evening of the hijacking was 10 degrees Celsius, which translates to 50 degrees Fahrenheit, then it was warmer than the 44 degrees Fahrenheit air temperature that Portland International Airport reported at 8:00 PM that evening.

In determining if Cooper and his equipment would immediately sink, you must also consider the volumes of water displaced by the parachutes, the money bag, and anything else he had attached to his body.  While I have run these numbers years ago, I am not going to bother to look them up now.  So I leave that to you.  And just remember that it will take some time for the parachutes, money bag, etc., to get saturated and they will be displacing a cubic foot of water or so in the meantime, and that provides quite a bit of buoyancy.

Unless Cooper's body was snagged on something on the bottom of the river, it is going to be moving downstream.  There is absolutely no way that it will remain stationary otherwise.

The diver said Cooper would sink like a stone, and that the parachute would do very little. I don't think we talked about the money bag, I might contact him again. My assumption is the money bag would come loose at impact.

How does the diver think the money got on Tina Bar?

Dredge. He's not a Cooperite like the rest of us, however he read parts of my book before it was published. He believes Tosaw's theory, that Cooper entered the Columbia when 305 passed over the river on the traditional FP

R99--

"Sink like a stone" was obviously hyperbole.

I respect the math calculations, but I have to trust a guy who fishes bodies out of the Mississippi river on a weekly basis. The Mississippi has a greater elevation change at the Twin Cities than the Columbia does at Portland, so current should be more of a factor there (and not to mention parkas and heavy clothing Minnesotans wear in winter), but my guy says it doesn't make much of a difference. Their search patterns are a product of the depth of the water. Even if we allow for a ton of error, that still puts Cooper's body at the bottom of the river within a few hundred feet of where it entered the water.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4552 on: January 19, 2020, 02:55:52 PM »
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Cooper's body, had he landed in the Columbia, would not have floated downstream very far. I talked to a rescue and body recovery diver who works on the Mississippi River in the Twin Cities of MN, and he looked up the water temperatures on that night. He told me, with water temperatures near 10 degrees Celsius, Cooper's body would have sunk to the bottom. When his crew does body recovery in such conditions, their search area is a product of water depth alone, not current. Cooper's body would have stayed at the bottom, around the point of entry, until water temperature rose in the spring. From there, Cooper's body would "pop" to the surface and start downstream with the river flow.

If the water temperature on the evening of the hijacking was 10 degrees Celsius, which translates to 50 degrees Fahrenheit, then it was warmer than the 44 degrees Fahrenheit air temperature that Portland International Airport reported at 8:00 PM that evening.

In determining if Cooper and his equipment would immediately sink, you must also consider the volumes of water displaced by the parachutes, the money bag, and anything else he had attached to his body.  While I have run these numbers years ago, I am not going to bother to look them up now.  So I leave that to you.  And just remember that it will take some time for the parachutes, money bag, etc., to get saturated and they will be displacing a cubic foot of water or so in the meantime, and that provides quite a bit of buoyancy.

Unless Cooper's body was snagged on something on the bottom of the river, it is going to be moving downstream.  There is absolutely no way that it will remain stationary otherwise.

The diver said Cooper would sink like a stone, and that the parachute would do very little. I don't think we talked about the money bag, I might contact him again. My assumption is the money bag would come loose at impact.

Cooper would not sink like a stone even if he was naked.  If he was a no-pull, he would probably be tumbling and doing about 180 MPH when he hit the water.  Depending on how he hit the water, feet or head first or belly flop or on his back, Cooper would probably be dead on impact and the air in his lungs would be exhaled.  For his body, it just depends on his body volume and weight.  But it would take some relatively short period of time for him to get to the bottom of the river regardless.  Based on the physical description of Cooper, my guess is that without any air in his lungs his body weight is going to be at least slightly greater than the weight of the water it displaces.  If he was obese and weighed 350 pounds, all bets would be off.

With the parachute and money bag attached to his body, it is again just a matter of the volume of the parachute (which was packed as hard as a rock) and the volume of the money bag plus their respective weights.  The weight of the river water was probably at least 60 pounds per cubic foot.  I think the money volume was about one-half of a cubic foot and the parachute volume would probably be at least that much also.  So they would probably provide some buoyancy for a period of time.  And everything is going to be moving downstream with the river water in the meantime.

As has been discussed previously, with almost 100 feet of parachute shroud lines missing from the reserve that was left on the airplane, Cooper could have wrapped the money bag at least 15 times and then securely tied it to himself or the parachute harness.  As a full disclosure, I think Cooper was a no-pull who landed on solid ground and within a few feet of the Columbia River's eastern water edge.  I think the money bag was damaged in the landing (popped like a balloon) and then, during a high water even that reached Cooper's impact site, the money bag and probably whatever remained of Cooper moved downstream and hung up briefly (maybe only minutes) at the point where three money packets were later found.

In connection with the above, remember that Natalie Wood was found completely submerged several hours after she went missing.  The only thing that kept her from sinking further was the fact that she had on a parka (or some such coat) which was completely submerged as well.  Reportedly, she was almost completely out of the parka and only barely held by it.     

The bills were examined by Tom and Alan for signs of stress/shock ... as during a controlled or uncontrolled fall from 10k feet. Stone's specialty is materials stress failure. The bills showed no signs of stress or having been dropped... no obvious damage of that kind. No obvious evidence of concussion or inertial stress in the fibres of the bills.   

Its just one of the things Tom and Alan tested for but has received no publicity.   
« Last Edit: January 19, 2020, 03:03:55 PM by georger »
 
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4553 on: January 19, 2020, 03:17:55 PM »
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Cooper's body, had he landed in the Columbia, would not have floated downstream very far. I talked to a rescue and body recovery diver who works on the Mississippi River in the Twin Cities of MN, and he looked up the water temperatures on that night. He told me, with water temperatures near 10 degrees Celsius, Cooper's body would have sunk to the bottom. When his crew does body recovery in such conditions, their search area is a product of water depth alone, not current. Cooper's body would have stayed at the bottom, around the point of entry, until water temperature rose in the spring. From there, Cooper's body would "pop" to the surface and start downstream with the river flow.

If the water temperature on the evening of the hijacking was 10 degrees Celsius, which translates to 50 degrees Fahrenheit, then it was warmer than the 44 degrees Fahrenheit air temperature that Portland International Airport reported at 8:00 PM that evening.

In determining if Cooper and his equipment would immediately sink, you must also consider the volumes of water displaced by the parachutes, the money bag, and anything else he had attached to his body.  While I have run these numbers years ago, I am not going to bother to look them up now.  So I leave that to you.  And just remember that it will take some time for the parachutes, money bag, etc., to get saturated and they will be displacing a cubic foot of water or so in the meantime, and that provides quite a bit of buoyancy.

Unless Cooper's body was snagged on something on the bottom of the river, it is going to be moving downstream.  There is absolutely no way that it will remain stationary otherwise.

The diver said Cooper would sink like a stone, and that the parachute would do very little. I don't think we talked about the money bag, I might contact him again. My assumption is the money bag would come loose at impact.

How does the diver think the money got on Tina Bar?

Dredge. He's not a Cooperite like the rest of us, however he read parts of my book before it was published. He believes Tosaw's theory, that Cooper entered the Columbia when 305 passed over the river on the traditional FP

R99--

"Sink like a stone" was obviously hyperbole.

I respect the math calculations, but I have to trust a guy who fishes bodies out of the Mississippi river on a weekly basis. The Mississippi has a greater elevation change at the Twin Cities than the Columbia does at Portland, so current should be more of a factor there (and not to mention parkas and heavy clothing Minnesotans wear in winter), but my guy says it doesn't make much of a difference. Their search patterns are a product of the depth of the water. Even if we allow for a ton of error, that still puts Cooper's body at the bottom of the river within a few hundred feet of where it entered the water.

If what you are saying above is correct, then Tosaw and everyone else should have been searching for Cooper in the Columbia River and east of Portland.  And if Cooper entered the Columbia east of Portland, he or whatever came loose from him would have been in the shipping channel on the Oregon side of the river when it went by the Tina Bar area.  The Columbia makes almost a 90 degree turn to the north on the west side of Portland and anything floating (or on the bottom) of the river is going to end up in that shipping channel after making that turn.  Also, keep in mind that the shipping channel between Portland and the Pacific was dredged after the Mount St. Helen's explosion.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4554 on: January 19, 2020, 03:37:34 PM »
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Cooper's body, had he landed in the Columbia, would not have floated downstream very far. I talked to a rescue and body recovery diver who works on the Mississippi River in the Twin Cities of MN, and he looked up the water temperatures on that night. He told me, with water temperatures near 10 degrees Celsius, Cooper's body would have sunk to the bottom. When his crew does body recovery in such conditions, their search area is a product of water depth alone, not current. Cooper's body would have stayed at the bottom, around the point of entry, until water temperature rose in the spring. From there, Cooper's body would "pop" to the surface and start downstream with the river flow.

If the water temperature on the evening of the hijacking was 10 degrees Celsius, which translates to 50 degrees Fahrenheit, then it was warmer than the 44 degrees Fahrenheit air temperature that Portland International Airport reported at 8:00 PM that evening.

In determining if Cooper and his equipment would immediately sink, you must also consider the volumes of water displaced by the parachutes, the money bag, and anything else he had attached to his body.  While I have run these numbers years ago, I am not going to bother to look them up now.  So I leave that to you.  And just remember that it will take some time for the parachutes, money bag, etc., to get saturated and they will be displacing a cubic foot of water or so in the meantime, and that provides quite a bit of buoyancy.

Unless Cooper's body was snagged on something on the bottom of the river, it is going to be moving downstream.  There is absolutely no way that it will remain stationary otherwise.

The diver said Cooper would sink like a stone, and that the parachute would do very little. I don't think we talked about the money bag, I might contact him again. My assumption is the money bag would come loose at impact.

How does the diver think the money got on Tina Bar?

Dredge. He's not a Cooperite like the rest of us, however he read parts of my book before it was published. He believes Tosaw's theory, that Cooper entered the Columbia when 305 passed over the river on the traditional FP

R99--

"Sink like a stone" was obviously hyperbole.

I respect the math calculations, but I have to trust a guy who fishes bodies out of the Mississippi river on a weekly basis. The Mississippi has a greater elevation change at the Twin Cities than the Columbia does at Portland, so current should be more of a factor there (and not to mention parkas and heavy clothing Minnesotans wear in winter), but my guy says it doesn't make much of a difference. Their search patterns are a product of the depth of the water. Even if we allow for a ton of error, that still puts Cooper's body at the bottom of the river within a few hundred feet of where it entered the water.

If what you are saying above is correct, then Tosaw and everyone else should have been searching for Cooper in the Columbia River and east of Portland.  And if Cooper entered the Columbia east of Portland, he or whatever came loose from him would have been in the shipping channel on the Oregon side of the river when it went by the Tina Bar area.  The Columbia makes almost a 90 degree turn to the north on the west side of Portland and anything floating (or on the bottom) of the river is going to end up in that shipping channel after making that turn.  Also, keep in mind that the shipping channel between Portland and the Pacific was dredged after the Mount St. Helen's explosion.

Why not ask the money where it came from and how, and when?

Everything else is speculation.  ;)
 
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Offline andrade1812

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4555 on: January 19, 2020, 04:28:50 PM »
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Cooper's body, had he landed in the Columbia, would not have floated downstream very far. I talked to a rescue and body recovery diver who works on the Mississippi River in the Twin Cities of MN, and he looked up the water temperatures on that night. He told me, with water temperatures near 10 degrees Celsius, Cooper's body would have sunk to the bottom. When his crew does body recovery in such conditions, their search area is a product of water depth alone, not current. Cooper's body would have stayed at the bottom, around the point of entry, until water temperature rose in the spring. From there, Cooper's body would "pop" to the surface and start downstream with the river flow.

If the water temperature on the evening of the hijacking was 10 degrees Celsius, which translates to 50 degrees Fahrenheit, then it was warmer than the 44 degrees Fahrenheit air temperature that Portland International Airport reported at 8:00 PM that evening.

In determining if Cooper and his equipment would immediately sink, you must also consider the volumes of water displaced by the parachutes, the money bag, and anything else he had attached to his body.  While I have run these numbers years ago, I am not going to bother to look them up now.  So I leave that to you.  And just remember that it will take some time for the parachutes, money bag, etc., to get saturated and they will be displacing a cubic foot of water or so in the meantime, and that provides quite a bit of buoyancy.

Unless Cooper's body was snagged on something on the bottom of the river, it is going to be moving downstream.  There is absolutely no way that it will remain stationary otherwise.

The diver said Cooper would sink like a stone, and that the parachute would do very little. I don't think we talked about the money bag, I might contact him again. My assumption is the money bag would come loose at impact.

How does the diver think the money got on Tina Bar?

Dredge. He's not a Cooperite like the rest of us, however he read parts of my book before it was published. He believes Tosaw's theory, that Cooper entered the Columbia when 305 passed over the river on the traditional FP

R99--

"Sink like a stone" was obviously hyperbole.

I respect the math calculations, but I have to trust a guy who fishes bodies out of the Mississippi river on a weekly basis. The Mississippi has a greater elevation change at the Twin Cities than the Columbia does at Portland, so current should be more of a factor there (and not to mention parkas and heavy clothing Minnesotans wear in winter), but my guy says it doesn't make much of a difference. Their search patterns are a product of the depth of the water. Even if we allow for a ton of error, that still puts Cooper's body at the bottom of the river within a few hundred feet of where it entered the water.

If what you are saying above is correct, then Tosaw and everyone else should have been searching for Cooper in the Columbia River and east of Portland.  And if Cooper entered the Columbia east of Portland, he or whatever came loose from him would have been in the shipping channel on the Oregon side of the river when it went by the Tina Bar area.  The Columbia makes almost a 90 degree turn to the north on the west side of Portland and anything floating (or on the bottom) of the river is going to end up in that shipping channel after making that turn.  Also, keep in mind that the shipping channel between Portland and the Pacific was dredged after the Mount St. Helen's explosion.

Cooper's body would have been at the bottom of the river until spring 1972, then it would have "popped" and flowed out with the river and found itself in the Pacific Ocean...
 

Offline andrade1812

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4556 on: January 19, 2020, 04:30:19 PM »
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Cooper's body, had he landed in the Columbia, would not have floated downstream very far. I talked to a rescue and body recovery diver who works on the Mississippi River in the Twin Cities of MN, and he looked up the water temperatures on that night. He told me, with water temperatures near 10 degrees Celsius, Cooper's body would have sunk to the bottom. When his crew does body recovery in such conditions, their search area is a product of water depth alone, not current. Cooper's body would have stayed at the bottom, around the point of entry, until water temperature rose in the spring. From there, Cooper's body would "pop" to the surface and start downstream with the river flow.

If the water temperature on the evening of the hijacking was 10 degrees Celsius, which translates to 50 degrees Fahrenheit, then it was warmer than the 44 degrees Fahrenheit air temperature that Portland International Airport reported at 8:00 PM that evening.

In determining if Cooper and his equipment would immediately sink, you must also consider the volumes of water displaced by the parachutes, the money bag, and anything else he had attached to his body.  While I have run these numbers years ago, I am not going to bother to look them up now.  So I leave that to you.  And just remember that it will take some time for the parachutes, money bag, etc., to get saturated and they will be displacing a cubic foot of water or so in the meantime, and that provides quite a bit of buoyancy.

Unless Cooper's body was snagged on something on the bottom of the river, it is going to be moving downstream.  There is absolutely no way that it will remain stationary otherwise.

The diver said Cooper would sink like a stone, and that the parachute would do very little. I don't think we talked about the money bag, I might contact him again. My assumption is the money bag would come loose at impact.

Cooper would not sink like a stone even if he was naked.  If he was a no-pull, he would probably be tumbling and doing about 180 MPH when he hit the water.  Depending on how he hit the water, feet or head first or belly flop or on his back, Cooper would probably be dead on impact and the air in his lungs would be exhaled.  For his body, it just depends on his body volume and weight.  But it would take some relatively short period of time for him to get to the bottom of the river regardless.  Based on the physical description of Cooper, my guess is that without any air in his lungs his body weight is going to be at least slightly greater than the weight of the water it displaces.  If he was obese and weighed 350 pounds, all bets would be off.

With the parachute and money bag attached to his body, it is again just a matter of the volume of the parachute (which was packed as hard as a rock) and the volume of the money bag plus their respective weights.  The weight of the river water was probably at least 60 pounds per cubic foot.  I think the money volume was about one-half of a cubic foot and the parachute volume would probably be at least that much also.  So they would probably provide some buoyancy for a period of time.  And everything is going to be moving downstream with the river water in the meantime.

As has been discussed previously, with almost 100 feet of parachute shroud lines missing from the reserve that was left on the airplane, Cooper could have wrapped the money bag at least 15 times and then securely tied it to himself or the parachute harness.  As a full disclosure, I think Cooper was a no-pull who landed on solid ground and within a few feet of the Columbia River's eastern water edge.  I think the money bag was damaged in the landing (popped like a balloon) and then, during a high water even that reached Cooper's impact site, the money bag and probably whatever remained of Cooper moved downstream and hung up briefly (maybe only minutes) at the point where three money packets were later found.

In connection with the above, remember that Natalie Wood was found completely submerged several hours after she went missing.  The only thing that kept her from sinking further was the fact that she had on a parka (or some such coat) which was completely submerged as well.  Reportedly, she was almost completely out of the parka and only barely held by it.     

The bills were examined by Tom and Alan for signs of stress/shock ... as during a controlled or uncontrolled fall from 10k feet. Stone's specialty is materials stress failure. The bills showed no signs of stress or having been dropped... no obvious damage of that kind. No obvious evidence of concussion or inertial stress in the fibres of the bills.   

Its just one of the things Tom and Alan tested for but has received no publicity.

How has this not been all over the forums?
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4557 on: January 19, 2020, 05:41:49 PM »
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Cooper's body, had he landed in the Columbia, would not have floated downstream very far. I talked to a rescue and body recovery diver who works on the Mississippi River in the Twin Cities of MN, and he looked up the water temperatures on that night. He told me, with water temperatures near 10 degrees Celsius, Cooper's body would have sunk to the bottom. When his crew does body recovery in such conditions, their search area is a product of water depth alone, not current. Cooper's body would have stayed at the bottom, around the point of entry, until water temperature rose in the spring. From there, Cooper's body would "pop" to the surface and start downstream with the river flow.

If the water temperature on the evening of the hijacking was 10 degrees Celsius, which translates to 50 degrees Fahrenheit, then it was warmer than the 44 degrees Fahrenheit air temperature that Portland International Airport reported at 8:00 PM that evening.

In determining if Cooper and his equipment would immediately sink, you must also consider the volumes of water displaced by the parachutes, the money bag, and anything else he had attached to his body.  While I have run these numbers years ago, I am not going to bother to look them up now.  So I leave that to you.  And just remember that it will take some time for the parachutes, money bag, etc., to get saturated and they will be displacing a cubic foot of water or so in the meantime, and that provides quite a bit of buoyancy.

Unless Cooper's body was snagged on something on the bottom of the river, it is going to be moving downstream.  There is absolutely no way that it will remain stationary otherwise.

The diver said Cooper would sink like a stone, and that the parachute would do very little. I don't think we talked about the money bag, I might contact him again. My assumption is the money bag would come loose at impact.

Cooper would not sink like a stone even if he was naked.  If he was a no-pull, he would probably be tumbling and doing about 180 MPH when he hit the water.  Depending on how he hit the water, feet or head first or belly flop or on his back, Cooper would probably be dead on impact and the air in his lungs would be exhaled.  For his body, it just depends on his body volume and weight.  But it would take some relatively short period of time for him to get to the bottom of the river regardless.  Based on the physical description of Cooper, my guess is that without any air in his lungs his body weight is going to be at least slightly greater than the weight of the water it displaces.  If he was obese and weighed 350 pounds, all bets would be off.

With the parachute and money bag attached to his body, it is again just a matter of the volume of the parachute (which was packed as hard as a rock) and the volume of the money bag plus their respective weights.  The weight of the river water was probably at least 60 pounds per cubic foot.  I think the money volume was about one-half of a cubic foot and the parachute volume would probably be at least that much also.  So they would probably provide some buoyancy for a period of time.  And everything is going to be moving downstream with the river water in the meantime.

As has been discussed previously, with almost 100 feet of parachute shroud lines missing from the reserve that was left on the airplane, Cooper could have wrapped the money bag at least 15 times and then securely tied it to himself or the parachute harness.  As a full disclosure, I think Cooper was a no-pull who landed on solid ground and within a few feet of the Columbia River's eastern water edge.  I think the money bag was damaged in the landing (popped like a balloon) and then, during a high water even that reached Cooper's impact site, the money bag and probably whatever remained of Cooper moved downstream and hung up briefly (maybe only minutes) at the point where three money packets were later found.

In connection with the above, remember that Natalie Wood was found completely submerged several hours after she went missing.  The only thing that kept her from sinking further was the fact that she had on a parka (or some such coat) which was completely submerged as well.  Reportedly, she was almost completely out of the parka and only barely held by it.     

The bills were examined by Tom and Alan for signs of stress/shock ... as during a controlled or uncontrolled fall from 10k feet. Stone's specialty is materials stress failure. The bills showed no signs of stress or having been dropped... no obvious damage of that kind. No obvious evidence of concussion or inertial stress in the fibres of the bills.   

Its just one of the things Tom and Alan tested for but has received no publicity.

How has this not been all over the forums?

Because Tom has not posted about it and people never asked! - one of the reasons Tom added Alan was because of his expertise as a materials breakage/destruction expert.   Alan was in a govt lab at the time he came on board. Look up Alan's vita if its still on Toms site. Alan has solid credentials. Plus he's a nice guy! Easy to work with.  Serious - creative. Persistent. Unbiased. He and Tom worked well together. Maybe Tom will post about it now ?

Tom himself, was quite thorough in looking for 'evidence' on the bills. He spent a lot of time (weeks) probing the bills for signs of anything unusual. He noted at one point how 'smooth and unbroken' the surfaces of the bills were, but he continued to look for any signs of stress, breakage, compression, etc. I was impressed with Tom's persistence. I hope Tom comes and speaks about all of this . . . better late than never. 

** Caveat:  keep in mind Tom only had three bills. Thats not a representative sample one can use to make conclusions about all of the bills. That is why I always refer back to the photos of the bills on the table at the FBI news conference ... do you see signs of stress in those bills?  ;)
« Last Edit: January 19, 2020, 06:18:38 PM by georger »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4558 on: January 19, 2020, 10:04:31 PM »
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Cooper's body, had he landed in the Columbia, would not have floated downstream very far. I talked to a rescue and body recovery diver who works on the Mississippi River in the Twin Cities of MN, and he looked up the water temperatures on that night. He told me, with water temperatures near 10 degrees Celsius, Cooper's body would have sunk to the bottom. When his crew does body recovery in such conditions, their search area is a product of water depth alone, not current. Cooper's body would have stayed at the bottom, around the point of entry, until water temperature rose in the spring. From there, Cooper's body would "pop" to the surface and start downstream with the river flow.

If the water temperature on the evening of the hijacking was 10 degrees Celsius, which translates to 50 degrees Fahrenheit, then it was warmer than the 44 degrees Fahrenheit air temperature that Portland International Airport reported at 8:00 PM that evening.

In determining if Cooper and his equipment would immediately sink, you must also consider the volumes of water displaced by the parachutes, the money bag, and anything else he had attached to his body.  While I have run these numbers years ago, I am not going to bother to look them up now.  So I leave that to you.  And just remember that it will take some time for the parachutes, money bag, etc., to get saturated and they will be displacing a cubic foot of water or so in the meantime, and that provides quite a bit of buoyancy.

Unless Cooper's body was snagged on something on the bottom of the river, it is going to be moving downstream.  There is absolutely no way that it will remain stationary otherwise.

The diver said Cooper would sink like a stone, and that the parachute would do very little. I don't think we talked about the money bag, I might contact him again. My assumption is the money bag would come loose at impact.

How does the diver think the money got on Tina Bar?

Dredge. He's not a Cooperite like the rest of us, however he read parts of my book before it was published. He believes Tosaw's theory, that Cooper entered the Columbia when 305 passed over the river on the traditional FP

R99--

"Sink like a stone" was obviously hyperbole.

I respect the math calculations, but I have to trust a guy who fishes bodies out of the Mississippi river on a weekly basis. The Mississippi has a greater elevation change at the Twin Cities than the Columbia does at Portland, so current should be more of a factor there (and not to mention parkas and heavy clothing Minnesotans wear in winter), but my guy says it doesn't make much of a difference. Their search patterns are a product of the depth of the water. Even if we allow for a ton of error, that still puts Cooper's body at the bottom of the river within a few hundred feet of where it entered the water.

If what you are saying above is correct, then Tosaw and everyone else should have been searching for Cooper in the Columbia River and east of Portland.  And if Cooper entered the Columbia east of Portland, he or whatever came loose from him would have been in the shipping channel on the Oregon side of the river when it went by the Tina Bar area.  The Columbia makes almost a 90 degree turn to the north on the west side of Portland and anything floating (or on the bottom) of the river is going to end up in that shipping channel after making that turn.  Also, keep in mind that the shipping channel between Portland and the Pacific was dredged after the Mount St. Helen's explosion.

Why not ask the money where it came from and how, and when?

Everything else is speculation.  ;)

I'll bet 377 had already done that.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4559 on: January 19, 2020, 10:06:42 PM »
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Who here has actually discussed the money find with the Fazios? I have, face-to-face multiple times.

The following is my understanding of what Richard Fazio leans towards in terms of an explanation for the money find:

Richard told me that he tends to think that the money was washed up onto Tena Bar very soon before the money was found.

Here's the problem: The rubberbands.

The rubberbands prove that the money could not have washed up onto Tena Bar immediately before February 10, 1980 and self-buried.

Its important to get some facts straight, here.

1. The FBI files record that the older Fazio (Al?) said pretty much what Ulis says Richard told him:  'Richard Fazio, told me that he tends to think that the money was washed up onto Tena Bar very soon before the money was found.'. But the FBI file and agents interviewed add Al Fazio saying: 'came up with the last high tide ... and he pointed to the last high tide line' (which was still wet).

Why would the Fazios pick the 'high tide' as the time and circumstance of the money delivery? The answer was simple. Al Fazio told me (and the FBI) ... 'the tides bring most of the debris to the beach and leave it. Even large logs. It comes up with the tide and when the tide recedes it settles down and stays...' So it's the complete cycle of 'bringing and leaving material' that the tides represent. The tides, according to the Fazios, account for 99% of the debris left on Tina Bar. It makes sense they would apply the same principle to the money fund at Tina Bar.

2. Tom Kaye's experiments with rubber bands are confusing and incomplete, and have lead to false interpretations of exactly what the Ingrams saw and found. The Ingram descriptions (plural!) are contradictory and impossible. The chemistry and aging of rubber bands is very well understood as a 'melt transition cycle'. And, exposure to UV speeds up the melt-transition process. The chemical bonds that bond latex and sulfur together literally come apart when exposed to UV. Indeed, as Tom Kaye points out, ozone detectors used to be made using rubber bands! Look that up.

Short of the Tina Bar money having been delivered from the bank to Tina Bar the day before, there is no way in hell the rubber bands on the bundles could have been still pliable, holding the bundles together, AND 'crumbled to dust when touched' all at the same time. That's contradictory. Crystalized bands that crumble to the touch have no pliability and no holding power - period! Tom Kay didnt have to do any tests - the knowledge base on rubber band chemistry has been well known for 100+ years.

The sad fact is there could have been all kinds of forensic tests run on the band remnants which came along with the Ingram money, but none of those tests were performed! Some of those tests might have provided clues as to the history of the money since being given to Cooper, then winding up on Tina Bar.

But, the bands on the found money were not viable or had any holding power - whatever. They were not holding anything together! Remember, they crumbled to dust when touched. That is a band that has passed fully through its melt-transition phase.   
     

Isn't this what Eric Ulis has already pointed out?