Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find (Read 1560637 times)

FLYJACK · « **Reply #4140 on:** October 17, 2018, 03:13:02 PM »

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I suppose I'm reiterating what's been said above. I'll restate it, because it's so astonishing. It blows the myth of rubber bands away, with the some ferocity as the myth of the back rigs coming from Cossey or that the untaken rig was a better choice than the NB6. (i.e. the implication it was a skydiving rig, not just another emergency rig).

I have two additions to prior info. Tina Mucklow's confirmation of the strapping (bank bands) and the erroneous 1980 FBI memo talking about order.

The money that Cooper received was not wrapped in rubber bands.

The only testimony that Cooper received rubber band bundles in random amounts, comes from Larry Carr. Larry Carr has produced incorrect evidence before, notably the source/ownership of the back rigs (which he attributed to Cossey). All of Carr's posting about Cossey and modified NB6 rip and "hard pull" should also be ignored.

My belief is that Carr misinterpreted things, both FBI files and interviews he made. There is no reason to believe that Carr described the money correctly. There is no documentation that supports what he posted in Dropzone.com

The money was not in random amounts per bundle. It was 100 bills per bundle.

The order of the bills in each bundle matched the order in the microfilm. That is an unknown order to us since the published serial number list is not the microfilm order.

The reference to bank bands is paper straps.

There are two documents that back this up.

First a FBI memo. Second Tina Mucklow's interview summary. If people don't have this pdf (from Geoffrey Grey, unredacted), it's part of the files I've recently uploaded to shutter's google drive. He'll probably make all that accessible soon. They've all been OCR'ed for text search.

Both snippets are attached as jpeg due to posting size restrictions, although shutter has the full pdfs.

A third FBI memo in 1980 is interesting. It claims the money was found in the same order as delivered, and in the same packaging. The order would not be known unless the microfiche was checked. Also, rubber bands were not the original packaging.

They also immediately claimed the floating down streams explanation. I think they were just trying to shut down speculation, so the memo doesn't reflect any real facts. I've included the damning snippet.

The memo was sent to multiple FBI offices 2/12/80 the day of the money find press conference.

It's obvious it's wrong, since they couldn't have verified the order like they claimed (time frame, microfiche).

Shutterbug has all the full versions of these in pdf form. (extracted from the source material)

1) FBI memo.
"He" means the Seattle-First National Bank employee. There are not unique rubber bands for Seattle-First and Federal Reserve. Also, it would not be possible to put identifying marks on rubber bands. At least, none that would be reliable. The mention of bank bands here, is another phrase for currency straps that had no other markings other than Seattle-First or Federal Reserve.

On 12/2/71 <redacted> Seattle-First National Bank, Seattle, Washington, advised that the ransom money paid in instant hijacking, was made up of all used 20 dollar bills, selected at random and without sequence.

He stated the bills were made up in packets of $2,000 each and were banded with Seattle-First National Bank or Federal Reserve Bank bands or quite possibly banded with bands from other banks.

No identifying marks were placed on these bands.

2) Muckow Interview
From Tina's interview, summarized in the FBI files that Geoffrey Grey obtained. Critical page attached. "He" is Cooper. "bank-type bands" are currency straps.

He opened the bag and inspected the contents which Miss MUCKLOW observed was money packed in small packages with bank-type bands around each package.

Having inspected the money in a cursory fashion, the hijacker stated that "it looked okay" and then indicated to Miss MUCKLOW that the crew could now permit the passengers to deplane.

3) FBI Memo 2/12/80 on the money find.
The statement about order and "packaging" should be ignored, since the order could not have been verified. Don't know why they put this out to the FBI offices. (Himmelsbach faulty reasoning?..see stream theory same day)

[On February 10, 1980]...ON AN OUTING WITH THEIR CHILDREN, MR. AND MRS. HAROLD DWAYNE INGRAM OF VANCOUVER, WASHINGTON, DISCOVERED A SUM OF MONEY PARTIALLY BURIED BY SAND IN THE NORTH RIVER BANK OF THE COLUMBIA RIVER , APPROXIMATELY FIVE MILES DOWN RIVER FROM THE U.S. INTERSTATE 5 BRIDGE CROSSING BETWEEN PORTLAND AND VANCOUVER, WASHINGTON.

THE INGRAMS CONTACTED THE FBI AND AN EXAMINATION OF THE BADLY DECOMPOSED $20 BILLS REVEALS THAT THEY BEAR SERIAL NUMBERS IDENTICAL TO A PORTION OF THOSE GIVEN TO THE HIJACKER.

BECAUSE OF THE DECOMPOSED NATURE OF THE BILLS AN EXACT ESTIMATE OF THE RECOVERED MONEY IS NOT POSSIBLE PENDING A LABORATORY EXAMINATION, HOWEVER, IT APPEARS TO BE SEVERAL THOUSAND DOLLARS.

THE PACKAGING AND THE NUMBERED SEQUENCE INDICATE THAT THE BILLS HAVE NOT BEEN SEPARATED AND ARE IN MUCH THE SAME ORDER AS WHEN GIVEN TO THE HIJACKER.

THE BILLS WILL BE SENT IMMEDIATELY TO THE FBI LABORATORY FOR ADDITIONAL
EXAMINATION.

IT APPEARS LOGICAL THAT THE PACKAGE OF BILLS COULD HAVE BEEN CARRIED DOWNSTREAM ON ONE OF THE WASHINGTON TRIBUTARIES OF THE COLUMBIA RIVER TO THE SITE WHERE THEY WERE FOUND.

The the rubber band frags found may have been from a single bundle, group of packets...

The bank employee must have randomized the bundles (groups of packets), not the individual packets if TBAR was in 100's.

That means the 3 TBAR money "packets" arrived as part of one rubber banded bundle.

No. It means you are inventing facts that dont exist and never existed ...

No packets ........... just bundles ......... just as the bank employee who assembled the bills said.

No need for abstraction and confusion reaching for made up facts you can use to support YOUR SUSPECT!

One thing we have learned in this monumentally long pointless exercise (which we already knew years ago!), is that the English language has lots of words which can be used for the same thing. BUNDLES - PACKAGES - PACKETS - ETC. All are mass count nouns! Whoopie.

Aren't Linguists good!? See Noam Chomsky for further clarification.

Bank employee claimed "bundles" not packets..

Then again you repeat your lie.. because you are a scared little ASS...>> a single rubber banded bundle of packets landing on TBAR does not support any specific suspect.

snowmman · « **Reply #4141 on:** October 17, 2018, 03:16:37 PM »

I believe all information from Ckret at Dropzone.com should be considered possibly erroneous.
There is no paper trail talking about rubber bands.

Why do people want to believe Ckret? He was just interpreting docs and interviews in his own way. That was before any docs were released on this matter.

The secrecy of the docs back then, let Ckret ramrod his point of view. Remember, he's just a pole vaulter. There's no reason he represents any kind of expert opinion.

Unless there are more docs we've not seen yet.

snowmman · « **Reply #4142 on:** October 17, 2018, 03:22:36 PM »

Ckret's "information" had a long convoluted story about how rubber bands got on the bills, that also included resizing and "hastily prepared"

If you agree that the rubber band story is false, then all of the resizing and "hastily prepared" information should be discarded too, since it came from the same source/interview.

There is no paper trail that talks about resizing bundles.

Unsurelock · « **Reply #4143 on:** October 17, 2018, 03:41:04 PM »

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Ckret's "information" had a long convoluted story about how rubber bands got on the bills, that also included resizing and "hastily prepared"

If you agree that the rubber band story is false, then all of the resizing and "hastily prepared" information should be discarded too, since it came from the same source/interview.

There is no paper trail that talks about resizing bundles.

The only significance I see so far regarding Flyjack's theory is that if this was one bundle of three packets held together by rubber bands, then it could support the theory of 305 having been west of Victor 23. Dropped bundle perhaps. It doesn't have to be bundled as packets to be buried deliberately. It doesn't have to be without straps to be natural means. So far I read the packet-bundle exchange and think it worthy enough to make a note of in case it becomes relevant.

I do like the idea of that jackass frantically spilling money while trying to find a ripcord.

snowmman · « **Reply #4144 on:** October 17, 2018, 03:41:41 PM »

Okay, if you agree with the previous, now we can brainstorm about something new:

How come no bank straps were reported by the Ingrams? Or the FBI?

If somehow rubber bands were holding together multiple bundles of bills, and the rubber bands crumbled off, then why didn't some remnant of the bank straps still exist between the bundles? They would have been protected?

The bank straps may have water soluble glue back then..don't know. They may have come off if all the bundles were loose.

But if the bills were stuck together simply by the effects of water (cohesion), then wouldn't some of the bank straps do the same thing?

Unless the theory is that the bank strap paper was less sturdy, and decomposed without a trace?

It's odd that no bank straps were reported with the bills.

Rubber bands? They may have been there or not. The only testimony on them existing in any form, is from the Ingrams.

snowmman · « **Reply #4145 on:** October 17, 2018, 03:44:12 PM »

The recent FBI FOIA docs document the use of SAGE and Air Force radar in determining flight path.
There are no issues about the flight path. All that supposition is erroneous.

In fact, the Joint Chiefs of Staff admins at the Pentagon got involved in okaying the release of the air force data and calculations to the FBI.

There are multiple memos referencing the use of Air Force radar and at least one referencing SAGE.

Unsurelock · « **Reply #4146 on:** October 17, 2018, 03:45:34 PM »

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Okay, if you agree with the previous, now we can brainstorm about something new:

How come no bank straps were reported by the Ingrams? Or the FBI?

If somehow rubber bands were holding together multiple bundles of bills, and the rubber bands crumbled off, then why didn't some remnant of the bank straps still exist between the bundles? They would have been protected?

The bank straps may have water soluble glue back then..don't know. They may have come off if all the bundles were loose.

But if the bills were stuck together simply by the effects of water (cohesion), then wouldn't some of the bank straps do the same thing?

Unless the theory is that the bank strap paper was less sturdy, and decomposed without a trace?

It's odd that no bank straps were reported with the bills.

Rubber bands? They may have been there or not. The only testimony on them existing in any form, is from the Ingrams.

Talked about this starting here:
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Unsurelock · « **Reply #4147 on:** October 17, 2018, 03:54:02 PM »

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The recent FBI FOIA docs document the use of SAGE and Air Force radar in determining flight path.
There are no issues about the flight path. All that supposition is erroneous.

In fact, the Joint Chiefs of Staff admins at the Pentagon got involved in okaying the release of the air force data and calculations to the FBI.

There are multiple memos referencing the use of Air Force radar and at least one referencing SAGE.

By the way, welcome, Snowmman. Heard lots about you.

georger · « **Reply #4148 on:** October 17, 2018, 03:56:21 PM »

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Okay, if you agree with the previous, now we can brainstorm about something new:

How come no bank straps were reported by the Ingrams? Or the FBI?

If somehow rubber bands were holding together multiple bundles of bills, and the rubber bands crumbled off, then why didn't some remnant of the bank straps still exist between the bundles? They would have been protected?

The bank straps may have water soluble glue back then..don't know. They may have come off if all the bundles were loose.

But if the bills were stuck together simply by the effects of water (cohesion), then wouldn't some of the bank straps do the same thing?

Unless the theory is that the bank strap paper was less sturdy, and decomposed without a trace?

It's odd that no bank straps were reported with the bills.

Rubber bands? They may have been there or not. The only testimony on them existing in any form, is from the Ingrams.

The Ingrams reported rubber bands. The bank employee who assembled the bundles reported he used rubber bands. I am confident rubber band fragments would be found in any lab analysis of the money and evidence folder debris.

Aside from that ... I dont see any important issues hanging on rubber vs paper bands! I see this as a side issue and the relevance to other issues is yet to be proved. If there is some important issue hanging on rubber vs paper bands why has it taken over a year to get to it?

georger · « **Reply #4149 on:** October 17, 2018, 03:58:48 PM »

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The recent FBI FOIA docs document the use of SAGE and Air Force radar in determining flight path.
There are no issues about the flight path. All that supposition is erroneous.

In fact, the Joint Chiefs of Staff admins at the Pentagon got involved in okaying the release of the air force data and calculations to the FBI.

There are multiple memos referencing the use of Air Force radar and at least one referencing SAGE.

By the way, welcome, Snowmman. Heard lots about you.

We dont know who this snowmman is. If it is not the real Snowmman then there is a problemo.

Why dont we all change our nyms to JOHN!

snowmman · « **Reply #4150 on:** October 17, 2018, 04:02:42 PM »

while there are other memos referencing the use of Air Force data to determine flight path, here's the 2/28/73 memo that says McChord got authorization to release their "radar data and calculations" to the FBI

The search zones, and maps used, before that, may have come from a mix of air force info and flight recorder info..The other memos talk about the different points in time where the search zone was shifted.

But all the info confirms they had radar info going into the flight path determination.

Here's a new question though: There's a memo that (from someone at NWA) that says the search area should be extended as far down south as the Columbia, saying the plane was on auto-pilot. There are two memos saying auto-pilot. I'll post those next.

snowmman · « **Reply #4151 on:** October 17, 2018, 04:16:37 PM »

Here's the 12/2/71 memo referencing a redacted person from NWA that suggested the plane was on autopilot and suggested searching as far south as the Columbia.

in later search maps, I don't believe they extended the search zone to the Columbia..close, maybe as close as Evergreen. But they still focused on probably jumped near La Center..

Oh ps. There was a parachute found in Portland in Jan 1972. Cossey said it wasn't Cooper's. I've not found much detail on the parachute found in Portland. I'll include the snip where they shipped it, and when Cossey said it wasn't Cooper's.

Interestingly, there was a memo talking about hiring Cossey to recreate the jump. They decided it was too risky.

If you distrust Cossey, then his role in "ruling out" found parachutes, could be suspect. Unsure. I believe the only place that info about the 28' canopy in a NB6 comes from, is Cossey's packing notes (since he packed both of Hayden's rigs around May 1971). Maybe Cossey mistakenly wrote down 28' instead of 26'? 377 has said a 28' wouldn't fit in a NB6 without closing flap modifications. The rig was bought at a surplus store, not from Cossey, so it's unlikely it would have a non-standard 28' canopy in it. The FBI memos do maintain that it's 28' canopy in a NB6. Hayden would have been unlikely to know canopy diameter. So I'm guessing only Cossey's packing notes gave the 28' info.

Yet another confusing detail.

snowmman · « **Reply #4152 on:** October 17, 2018, 04:23:13 PM »

georger:

I assume you're looking for authentication that the snowmman posting at Dropzone.com is this snowmman
I've attached a snip that shows the titles and dates of messages you sent me at Dropzone.com back in the day.
You can cross check one or more against your sent messages at Dropzone.com, or take it on faith as accurate.

Or you can assume I can access any information I want, anywhere on the internet. Or that anyone can log in as snowmman at Dropzone.com

snowmman · « **Reply #4153 on:** October 17, 2018, 04:48:58 PM »

Here is one of the memos that show SAGE produced flight path maps for the FBI.
They were talking about getting SR-71 overflight, which never happened.
They wanted flight path maps for the SR-71 planning, and forwarded one of the SAGE maps

They talk about air force data and calculations in other memos also.

But 377 will be happy to see confirmation that SAGE was involved in flight path maps, using their radar.

Unsurelock · « **Reply #4154 on:** October 17, 2018, 05:03:23 PM »

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georger:

I assume you're looking for authentication that the snowmman posting at Dropzone.com is this snowmman
I've attached a snip that shows the titles and dates of messages you sent me at Dropzone.com back in the day.
You can cross check one or more against your sent messages at Dropzone.com, or take it on faith as accurate.

Or you can assume I can access any information I want, anywhere on the internet. Or that anyone can log in as snowmman at Dropzone.com

Or the rest of us can additionally assume that you could be Georger, showing a user-sorted view of his own DZ message box. Not that I would think that.

Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find (Read 1560637 times)

FLYJACK

Re: Tina Bar Money Find

snowmman

Re: Tina Bar Money Find

snowmman

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Unsurelock

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snowmman

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snowmman

Re: Tina Bar Money Find

Unsurelock

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Unsurelock

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georger

Re: Tina Bar Money Find

georger

Re: Tina Bar Money Find

snowmman

Re: Tina Bar Money Find

snowmman

Re: Tina Bar Money Find

snowmman

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snowmman

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Unsurelock

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