Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find  (Read 1514140 times)

Offline hom

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #390 on: December 04, 2014, 06:13:10 PM »
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Could be!!  However keep in mind everyone Ive ever considered knowledgeable about the find says the find was 40ft from the water's edge... not 60 feet, not 20 feet, not 40 yards as per Tom's chart!

Tom's photo shows a 50 yard line. If his line is correct his Ingram location is 40 yards from the water edge.

Was that "everyone" talking about the distance at the time the Ingrams found the money and the beach was searched?  That distance would not be the same in an aerial for a different time in which the water level was different.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #391 on: December 04, 2014, 06:28:40 PM »
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Could be!!  However keep in mind everyone Ive ever considered knowledgeable about the find says the find was 40ft from the water's edge... not 60 feet, not 20 feet, not 40 yards as per Tom's chart!

Tom's photo shows a 50 yard line. If his line is correct his Ingram location is 40 yards from the water edge.

Was that "everyone" talking about the distance at the time the Ingrams found the money and the beach was searched?  That distance would not be the same in an aerial for a different time in which the water level was different.

I'm going by what I recall Carr stating about the money. it's true the location will change with the tide, or the waterline. the only way I could see trying to get a location this way would be using the tree line, or a specific tree to measure outward too?

Also found this:

About Fazio Brothers Sand CO Inc
Fazio Brothers Sand CO Inc

Business Information
Location Type   Unknown
Year Established   1957
Annual Revenue Estimate $10 to 20 million

They also run under the name of "FAZIO BROS. FAMILY, LLC"

I was talking about Fazio's being in the business, not activity on the beach, activity on Tina Bar.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2014, 10:11:08 PM by shutter »
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #392 on: December 05, 2014, 12:38:29 AM »
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Could be!!  However keep in mind everyone Ive ever considered knowledgeable about the find says the find was 40ft from the water's edge... not 60 feet, not 20 feet, not 40 yards as per Tom's chart!

Tom's photo shows a 50 yard line. If his line is correct his Ingram location is 40 yards from the water edge.

Was that "everyone" talking about the distance at the time the Ingrams found the money and the beach was searched?  That distance would not be the same in an aerial for a different time in which the water level was different.

The difference in Tom's chart is 120ft (40 yds) vs. 40ft (13.3 yds) within months of each other with no flooding involved?  The USGS photo we use is dated 9-27-79 vs. Ingram find on 2-14-80. Water levels should not matter on these dates?

 

 
« Last Edit: December 05, 2014, 12:39:29 AM by georger »
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #393 on: December 05, 2014, 03:31:05 AM »
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Could be!!  However keep in mind everyone Ive ever considered knowledgeable about the find says the find was 40ft from the water's edge... not 60 feet, not 20 feet, not 40 yards as per Tom's chart!

Tom's photo shows a 50 yard line. If his line is correct his Ingram location is 40 yards from the water edge.

Was that "everyone" talking about the distance at the time the Ingrams found the money and the beach was searched?  That distance would not be the same in an aerial for a different time in which the water level was different.

I'm going by what I recall Carr stating about the money. it's true the location will change with the tide, or the waterline. the only way I could see trying to get a location this way would be using the tree line, or a specific tree to measure outward too?

Also found this:

About Fazio Brothers Sand CO Inc
Fazio Brothers Sand CO Inc

Business Information
Location Type   Unknown
Year Established   1957
Annual Revenue Estimate $10 to 20 million

They also run under the name of "FAZIO BROS. FAMILY, LLC"

I was talking about Fazio's being in the business, not activity on the beach, activity on Tina Bar.

Prior to Tom's chart at his website I used Google scales for all measurements at Tina Bar. Then I started using Tom's 50 yard scale from his chart here. So I decided to check them against each other and they do not agree. I'm not sure which one is not accurate. Maybe both of them are not accurate? They should agree on a common photo.

In Tom's photo attached 50yd = 150ft = 77 pixel = 1.95 pixel per foot.  Using Google's scale in the same photo 1 foot = 1.68 pixel. That is a considerable difference.

Have you got any independent means to check Tom's 50yd (150ft) scale? Or an independent measurement of anything (building etc) on any photo of Tina Bar?

   
« Last Edit: December 05, 2014, 03:33:25 AM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #394 on: December 05, 2014, 06:56:26 AM »
I'm pretty sure this is the building you measured 196.7 is in the link below. the records show it's 220 feet long. the tool I use on the Clark County website measure the building at 220.86 feet. it's seems to be pretty accurate.

The Google Distance map measures the building at 219.334

The photo below is from the Clark County website.



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« Last Edit: December 05, 2014, 07:50:16 AM by shutter »
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #395 on: December 05, 2014, 12:41:55 PM »
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I'm pretty sure this is the building you measured 196.7 is in the link below. the records show it's 220 feet long. the tool I use on the Clark County website measure the building at 220.86 feet. it's seems to be pretty accurate.

The Google Distance map measures the building at 219.334

The photo below is from the Clark County website.



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ok .... that improves things. Tom's scale and this new measure now agree - there is a 0.04 pixel per yard variance.

That's not enough to worry about for what we are doing. Thanks...

I'm going to return to a general principle illustrated by the attached. And that is, the location of the Ingram find is at the first natural catch point or point of resistance, with the direction of flow of the river across the surface of Tina Bar. Those trees and bushes offer the first open point of resistance to the flow of water on the sand bar.

Likewise, that location is the first natural point of resistance to flow, just north of the 1974 (north) dredge pile.

Coincidentally, the Ingram location is almost directly across from a wing dam that stretches out into the river (another point of resistance) where bottom sediment was dredged from the main channel and deposited at the north dredging pile on Tina Bar.

It's a set of remarkable coincidences.
   
« Last Edit: December 05, 2014, 02:33:50 PM by georger »
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #396 on: December 05, 2014, 03:05:54 PM »
I am intrigued by the attached press photo because it shows two distinct areas being worked, either on the afternoon of the first day Tuesday Feb 12th, or on Wednesday Feb 13th ... perhaps before Palmer had arrived late on the 13th or perhaps the next day? To give context, it was the afternoon of Tuesday the 12th at 3:30pm, that the Ingrams and Himmelsbach are holding their press conference back in the Portland office. Agents had already been dispatched to Tina Bar before noon on that day ...   

The reason I'm so interested in this photo is because I have a description from two agents about what was done and found, on the afternoon of the 12th and into the next day (Feb 13), prior to Palmer arriving. It was on the afternoon of the 12th when allegedly the fragment field and most of the fragments were found. I have a description of where fragments were found, ether on or near the surface or at some depth at various distances and distances from the Ingram find. I have been trying to put this all in contact with the photo recently discovered. In fact I will post another press photo showing the grid work being done at Tina Bar.

We see work being done in sectors A & B. Sector B has been extensively worked and perhaps a trench there? Sector A shows what may be a few holes and short trenches, but nothing appears to be happening between sectors A & B - why? Was nothing found there. The work I see being done in Sector A agrees very well with accounts I have been given by the agents, presumably below and to the left (down stream) of the Ingram location. The extensive work being done in this photo in Sector B is somewhat of a surprise to me, given what I was told. And the large gap with no work done between A and B is surprising to me also.

Quite obviously something motivated work being done in sectors A & B, to the exclusion of the area between these sectors.

Let me post these two photos for comment -
   


 

   
« Last Edit: December 05, 2014, 03:22:26 PM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #397 on: December 05, 2014, 06:08:38 PM »
Didn't articles claim fragments were found near the waterline? I've heard so many different stories it's hard to get to the bottom.
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #398 on: December 05, 2014, 09:39:34 PM »
McPheters said he dug at the High-Tide line and found a dozen or so fragments.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #399 on: December 05, 2014, 09:48:00 PM »
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McPheters said he dug at the High-Tide line and found a dozen or so fragments.

That statement alone should rule out any "plant" going on with the money find. based on seeing what occurs on the beaches of the Columbia it would be tricky trying to figure out when the money arrived. where was this info obtained?
 

Offline hom

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #400 on: December 05, 2014, 10:01:25 PM »
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Let me post these two photos for comment -

It's hard to tell what is happening at B, except for the trench and the backhoe at its west end.  Although the soil seems to be disturbed in both pics, there don't seem to be any people doing anything there except for 2 people in the pic taken from the west.  There also seems to be something like a large tarp spread out at the west end of the disturbed area.

Maybe someone thought the trench for Palmer should be dug a bit away from where money had been found, maybe to minimize impact on potential money finds?

Both areas grew in the time between the two pix, upgrade at A and downgrade at B.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #401 on: December 05, 2014, 10:13:26 PM »
Large tarp might be some sort of sifting device?
 

Offline hom

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #402 on: December 05, 2014, 11:40:04 PM »
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Let me post these two photos for comment -

re. the pic taken from the north:

40 feet from the water edge would be at about the base of that tree in the foreground, or at the dark blob on the other side of the tree in the row just past the one where the row of people are working. [see the attachment] That row of people is about 20' from the water.  The whole beach is only about 65' wide.  40 yards would be twice as far from the water as the edge of the beach was.

It appears that the beach slope was something around 1:5.  This would put the water's edge about 16' further out in the '79 pic (since the water was about 3.3' lower on 9-27-79).
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #403 on: December 05, 2014, 11:43:57 PM »
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Large tarp might be some sort of sifting device?

Palmer is the one in a suit coat with something in his hands ... right.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2014, 11:46:14 PM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #404 on: December 05, 2014, 11:52:55 PM »
Correct....