Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

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Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find  (Read 1561301 times)

Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3750 on: March 04, 2018, 07:58:38 PM »
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My major problem again, is how did Cooper money come to this area of the Columbia to be dredged up, in the first place! Especially if Cooper bailed near Ariel?

seems to be the million dollar question....

It's the bail time that is troubling, as well as the path..as time has passed the jump time has moved closer to the Columbia..lets say the path is correct..I have trouble understanding the 8:16 -8:17 location. it's a heavy roll followed by another roll. could Cooper have been on the stairs, I haven't a clue. but this area is troubling..you have seen it on my simulator   it doesn't look the same on the map vs real flight...that's not my point though, it's why they did so many turns in that area?

it's possible they seen PDX and avoided it...

Shutter, the George Harrison notes gives the location of the airliner as 23 DME south of the Battleground VORTAC (then known as the Portland VORTAC) at 8:18 PM.  This is completely south of Portland and is consistent with a steady state flight (no unusual turning) that bypassed Portland on the west side.

The 23 DME mile position is a fact and, therefore, any 8:16 or 8:17 time that has the airliner north of the Columbia River is nonsense.
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FLYJACK

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3751 on: March 04, 2018, 08:05:18 PM »
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Apologies if the longtime Cooper sleuths have covered this doc already..  but I found it fascinating and it opens up some other possibilities.

It is a comprehensive report on the shoreline erosion/remediation for Sauvie Island. It maps out the dredge deposit sites (including TBAR) and dates/volumes on Sauvie only back to the 70's.

I have included the map below.

One theory I had played with earlier was that the Columbia dredge operation dumped spoils upstream of TBAR and erosion caused the money to drift/land on TBAR above the 1974 TBAR spoils.

If so, the dredge operation may have assisted in an upstream transport.


It also confirms the Columbia tidal flow reversal to Sauvie, as well as moving objects upstream.

"This varies with tidal stage and river flow volume, and reversals have been observed as far upstream as Sauvie Island (personal communication, 2 local residents). As the ocean water advances the river will reach slack tide and eventually a reversal. Flow reversal can impact shoreline erosion by repeatedly transporting large logs and debris, which can scour the bank as they move up and down the river with the tide."

"Shoreline Erosion on Sauvie Island, Oregon - Oregon State University"

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I covered this theory already, there was a huge dump of dredge material in 1976 on Sauvie Island right across and about a mile upstream of TBAR. The dredge material was used to help with the ongoing erosion problem.

So, assume hijacker somehow lost money near Ariel and it made its way down the Lewis to the Columbia probably in its container. It was clamshell dredged and moved by barge upstream to Sauvie Island in 1976. That spot is under constant erosion, it came loose and floated across the river to TBAR prior to 1981.

TBAR is right where you'd expect it to land based on the shape of the Columbia at the Sauvie erosion location.

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"Money ends up in Columbia via Lewis R.

Clamshell dredge picks up and it is barged to Sauvie Island and dumped on an approximately two mile stretch across from TBAR extending upstream. It is the only place that had a material deposit upstream of TBAR on Sauvie Island between 1971 and 1980. There was 163,210 cu/yds in 1976 and 44,023 cu/yds in 1977 dumped there. (map attached) The purpose was erosion mitigation. A dredge/barge operation could have moved "the money" a distance up river.

The location is a unique point of high erosion at the outside of the bend in the river. River erosion patterns suggest that loosened debris would get moved across to exactly where TBAR is.

This would place the money on TBAR sometime after 1976 on top of the 1974 TBAR dredge layer."
« Last Edit: March 04, 2018, 08:07:13 PM by FLYJACK »
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3752 on: March 04, 2018, 08:11:18 PM »
how did the money get off the bottom of the river? the is the series of events I don't believe in to make this plausible...too much thinking...IMO..
« Last Edit: March 04, 2018, 08:12:25 PM by Shutter »
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3753 on: March 04, 2018, 08:14:54 PM »
when things are unsolved, it doesn't need 10 events in order for the story to be complete, or the reason it took so long...

I remember an article Farflung posted on the DZ...an old man went missing..nobody had a clue where he went, or why...it turns out he was right under everyone's nose...he had a heart attack, drove off the road into some bushes and was concealed till city officials found his body while cutting the grass on the side of the road..all kinds of stories could of come from this, and a simple answer was the ending to the mystery...
« Last Edit: March 04, 2018, 08:18:51 PM by Shutter »
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Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3754 on: March 04, 2018, 08:16:07 PM »
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Apologies if the longtime Cooper sleuths have covered this doc already..  but I found it fascinating and it opens up some other possibilities.

It is a comprehensive report on the shoreline erosion/remediation for Sauvie Island. It maps out the dredge deposit sites (including TBAR) and dates/volumes on Sauvie only back to the 70's.

I have included the map below.

One theory I had played with earlier was that the Columbia dredge operation dumped spoils upstream of TBAR and erosion caused the money to drift/land on TBAR above the 1974 TBAR spoils.

If so, the dredge operation may have assisted in an upstream transport.


It also confirms the Columbia tidal flow reversal to Sauvie, as well as moving objects upstream.

"This varies with tidal stage and river flow volume, and reversals have been observed as far upstream as Sauvie Island (personal communication, 2 local residents). As the ocean water advances the river will reach slack tide and eventually a reversal. Flow reversal can impact shoreline erosion by repeatedly transporting large logs and debris, which can scour the bank as they move up and down the river with the tide."

"Shoreline Erosion on Sauvie Island, Oregon - Oregon State University"

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I covered this theory already, there was a huge dump of dredge material in 1976 on Sauvie Island right across and about a mile upstream of TBAR. The dredge material was used to help with the ongoing erosion problem.

So, assume hijacker somehow lost money near Ariel and it made its way down the Lewis to the Columbia probably in its container. It was clamshell dredged and moved by barge upstream to Sauvie Island in 1976. That spot is under constant erosion, it came loose and floated across the river to TBAR prior to 1981.

TBAR is right where you'd expect it to land based on the shape of the Columbia at the Sauvie erosion location.

posts with images..

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"Money ends up in Columbia via Lewis R.

Clamshell dredge picks up and it is barged to Sauvie Island and dumped on an approximately two mile stretch across from TBAR extending upstream. It is the only place that had a material deposit upstream of TBAR on Sauvie Island between 1971 and 1980. There was 163,210 cu/yds in 1976 and 44,023 cu/yds in 1977 dumped there. (map attached) The purpose was erosion mitigation. A dredge/barge operation could have moved "the money" a distance up river.

The location is a unique point of high erosion at the outside of the bend in the river. River erosion patterns suggest that loosened debris would get moved across to exactly where TBAR is.

This would place the money on TBAR sometime after 1976 on top of the 1974 TBAR dredge layer."


Flyjack, your theory is wrong and for a very simple reason.  You have the dredged material on the Oregon side of the river and it is not going to cross the river by natural means.

Further, if Mother Nature moved any material onto Tina Bar, it would reduce the erosion there.  That does not happen and Tina Bar has a severe erosion problem which is why the dredged materials were sometimes dumped there.
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3755 on: March 04, 2018, 08:32:41 PM »
where do we draw the line with the transcripts and timing?

the transcripts state 19 miles DME about 7 minutes into the flight..my simulator does the same...I arrive at the Toledo/Carlson field at around 7:59-8:00 which is consistent with the map..I cross the Lewis river close to the time frame on the map?

I realize you are miles ahead of me with aviation, but I'm having trouble believing the military, and the airlines are completely wrong, or we have a major cover-up right out of the gate...they put a lot of time and effort into a map for show, a map nobody seen for decades?
« Last Edit: March 04, 2018, 10:15:19 PM by Shutter »
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FLYJACK

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3756 on: March 04, 2018, 08:37:08 PM »
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Apologies if the longtime Cooper sleuths have covered this doc already..  but I found it fascinating and it opens up some other possibilities.

It is a comprehensive report on the shoreline erosion/remediation for Sauvie Island. It maps out the dredge deposit sites (including TBAR) and dates/volumes on Sauvie only back to the 70's.

I have included the map below.

One theory I had played with earlier was that the Columbia dredge operation dumped spoils upstream of TBAR and erosion caused the money to drift/land on TBAR above the 1974 TBAR spoils.

If so, the dredge operation may have assisted in an upstream transport.


It also confirms the Columbia tidal flow reversal to Sauvie, as well as moving objects upstream.

"This varies with tidal stage and river flow volume, and reversals have been observed as far upstream as Sauvie Island (personal communication, 2 local residents). As the ocean water advances the river will reach slack tide and eventually a reversal. Flow reversal can impact shoreline erosion by repeatedly transporting large logs and debris, which can scour the bank as they move up and down the river with the tide."

"Shoreline Erosion on Sauvie Island, Oregon - Oregon State University"

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

I covered this theory already, there was a huge dump of dredge material in 1976 on Sauvie Island right across and about a mile upstream of TBAR. The dredge material was used to help with the ongoing erosion problem.

So, assume hijacker somehow lost money near Ariel and it made its way down the Lewis to the Columbia probably in its container. It was clamshell dredged and moved by barge upstream to Sauvie Island in 1976. That spot is under constant erosion, it came loose and floated across the river to TBAR prior to 1981.

TBAR is right where you'd expect it to land based on the shape of the Columbia at the Sauvie erosion location.

posts with images..

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

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"Money ends up in Columbia via Lewis R.

Clamshell dredge picks up and it is barged to Sauvie Island and dumped on an approximately two mile stretch across from TBAR extending upstream. It is the only place that had a material deposit upstream of TBAR on Sauvie Island between 1971 and 1980. There was 163,210 cu/yds in 1976 and 44,023 cu/yds in 1977 dumped there. (map attached) The purpose was erosion mitigation. A dredge/barge operation could have moved "the money" a distance up river.

The location is a unique point of high erosion at the outside of the bend in the river. River erosion patterns suggest that loosened debris would get moved across to exactly where TBAR is.

This would place the money on TBAR sometime after 1976 on top of the 1974 TBAR dredge layer."


Flyjack, your theory is wrong and for a very simple reason.  You have the dredged material on the Oregon side of the river and it is not going to cross the river by natural means.

Further, if Mother Nature moved any material onto Tina Bar, it would reduce the erosion there.  That does not happen and Tina Bar has a severe erosion problem which is why the dredged materials were sometimes dumped there.


Not wrong at all. Preliminary sure.

That area on Sauvie is undergoing constant severe erosion, so yes a "money container" could have been "loosened". TBAR is an area where much debri washes up. Caterpillar Island doesn't erode, the opposite, it needs dredging.

This theory is the best I have heard so far to move money from Ariel to TBAR, but it obviously needs more research..

Georger quote..

"It's dangerous to assume Cooper would do this or that; all that matters is what he did do - facts vs myths (re-Sluggo). The rumor that part of a briefcase was found, is persistent. It may be nothing more than a rumor.

What is not a rumor however, is the fact that Tina Bar hosts a lot of debris, washed in from all over the place. JT even once alleged he had dropped ping-pong balls at the Washougal and several showed up on Tina Bar later! JT didn't bother to take photos or if he did he has never presented his proof. Tom and I were both wide-eyed at this revelation, after Tom had already conducted experiments and published.

Debris washing up on Tina Bar however is a fact. See the photo attached taken at the start of the excavation in 1980. Is that wide swath of debris defining a tide line? Could Cooper money have come up tangled in debris? Palmer says nothing about debris and debris routes on Tina Bar - he does document types of debris found in each of his strata layers, all of it small debris (eg. no big logs). The nature of debris which was arriving on Tina Bar 1970-1980 has yet to be defined and documented. Note also the quality of the soft sand in the picture attached. That is the soft washed sand the Ingram money was noticed in and pulled from. Note how deep heel prints of the agents are in this soft sand. This 'is' the sand that was covering the Ingram Cooper money.  I would think soft sand like that would move easily under force of water (or even wind). The difference in cohesion and compressibility of material in Palmer's upper active layer (the sand shown in the photo) and material in Palmer's deeper layers he found would be different." 

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« Last Edit: March 04, 2018, 08:38:57 PM by FLYJACK »
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3757 on: March 04, 2018, 08:38:00 PM »
floating debris...the money was a sinker....plus, reverse flow would take it way back past Portland, right?
« Last Edit: March 04, 2018, 08:40:37 PM by Shutter »
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FLYJACK

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3758 on: March 04, 2018, 08:41:44 PM »
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floating debris...the money was a sinker....

Doesn't have to float on surface, river currents can push debri up onto shore from bottom in right conditions.
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3759 on: March 04, 2018, 08:42:42 PM »
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floating debris...the money was a sinker....

Doesn't have to float on surface, river currents can push debri up onto shore from bottom in right conditions.

again, I can't buy into this...too many if's and events..easiest way between two points is a straight line....
« Last Edit: March 04, 2018, 08:43:34 PM by Shutter »
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FLYJACK

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3760 on: March 04, 2018, 08:44:49 PM »
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floating debris...the money was a sinker....

Doesn't have to float on surface, river currents can push debri up onto shore from bottom in right conditions.

again, I can't buy into this...too many if's and events..easiest way between two points is a straight line....

Do you have a better explanation?
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3761 on: March 04, 2018, 08:45:57 PM »
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floating debris...the money was a sinker....

Doesn't have to float on surface, river currents can push debri up onto shore from bottom in right conditions.

again, I can't buy into this...too many if's and events..easiest way between two points is a straight line....

Do you have a better explanation?

that's a childish response fly...do you want to bully me into agreeing with you?
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FLYJACK

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3762 on: March 04, 2018, 08:52:26 PM »
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floating debris...the money was a sinker....

Doesn't have to float on surface, river currents can push debri up onto shore from bottom in right conditions.

again, I can't buy into this...too many if's and events..easiest way between two points is a straight line....

Do you have a better explanation?

that's a childish response fly...do you want to bully me into agreeing with you?

It is a good theory, not fact. You dismiss it and mock it because I presented it. I don't even accept it as fact so why do I expect anyone else to. All I expect is intellectually honest analysis.

« Last Edit: March 04, 2018, 08:53:01 PM by FLYJACK »
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3763 on: March 04, 2018, 08:55:01 PM »
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floating debris...the money was a sinker....

Doesn't have to float on surface, river currents can push debri up onto shore from bottom in right conditions.

again, I can't buy into this...too many if's and events..easiest way between two points is a straight line....

Do you have a better explanation?

that's a childish response fly...do you want to bully me into agreeing with you?

It is a good theory, not fact. You dismiss it and mock it because I presented it. I don't even accept it as fact so why do I expect anyone to. All I expect is intellectually honest analysis.

Fly, once again you are insulting me...I have not MOCKED you...i have a right to disagree with you...have I made fun of you, or joked about this latest theory? YOU want to box me in like I have no other alternative other than agreeing with you....

Stop pushing me!
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3764 on: March 04, 2018, 08:56:59 PM »
You stated in the past how easy the money could move 10 miles backwards, so that also applies here!
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