Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find  (Read 1562794 times)

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1025 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3390 on: June 14, 2017, 08:09:36 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
But wouldn't someone with knowledge of the vectors and piloting, deduce that V23 would be the vector taken, and plan accordingly?

Yes, and skydivers wear boots, so? it goes round and round...
 
The following users thanked this post: Kermit

Offline dice

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 268
  • Thanked: 40 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3391 on: June 14, 2017, 08:12:15 PM »
The early bit I venture was to jump with visibility with dusk.   Not caring about destination (as long as south) but getting  off ground is probably what he cared about at moment.  For he could reinstruct the pilots once in flight anyway, as he was in charge.  The significance of Mexico is the southerly direction. 
Purdue 38  Iowa 36
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1025 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3392 on: June 14, 2017, 08:18:31 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
The early bit I venture was to jump with visibility with dusk.   Not caring about destination (as long as south) but getting  off ground is probably what he cared about at moment.  For he could reinstruct the pilots once in flight anyway, as he was in charge.  The significance of Mexico is the southerly direction.

Yes, but there is always a catch...nobody knows what he was thinking. did he really want out early this would imply no reason for specific route. if he was jumping later he might not know where he is due to cloud cover, and not have a flight plan. how could he time the jump if he doesn't know where he is?

early jump, gets a jump on them, a later jump confuses them more, but which one is right? they believe he was military and you have McChord 19 NM's from Seatac, right where he had trouble with the stairs.
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1025 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3393 on: June 14, 2017, 08:50:36 PM »
Many believe Cooper was "speacial ops' or military as well as a pilot...here ya go..


 
The following users thanked this post: dice

Offline dice

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 268
  • Thanked: 40 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3394 on: June 14, 2017, 09:40:26 PM »
That was a good video.  Mucklow spent five hours with Cooper so she easily would have IDed a McCoy photo if him..... but supposedly he knew something about Cooper that wasn't public... maybe McCoy knr ehim or was on the ground, and or trained with him in some commando unit. 
Purdue 38  Iowa 36
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1025 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3395 on: June 14, 2017, 09:44:35 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
That was a good video.  Mucklow spent five hours with Cooper so she easily would have IDed a McCoy photo if him..... but supposedly he knew something about Cooper that wasn't public... maybe McCoy knr ehim or was on the ground, and or trained with him in some commando unit.


A guy by the name of Bob Knoss swears that Cooper was Duane Weber and was trained by McCoy. he says he still talks to "Mac"  :rofl:

He lives in a small world. he believes Rataczak was in on it, he supplied the "dummy chute" that had boots in them. the list is far too long to post here...
 

georger

  • Guest
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3396 on: June 14, 2017, 11:43:02 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
But wouldn't someone with knowledge of the vectors and piloting, deduce that V23 would be the vector taken, and plan accordingly?

vectors and piloting.

Victor airways are designated by the FAA in FAA Order JO 7400.9. They are available for flight below Flight Level 180 (approximately 18,000 feet (5,500 m) above mean sea level (AMSL)) under either instrument flight rules (IFR) or visual flight rules (VFR).
« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 12:16:35 AM by georger »
 

Robert99

  • Guest
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3397 on: June 15, 2017, 12:32:46 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
But wouldn't someone with knowledge of the vectors and piloting, deduce that V23 would be the vector taken, and plan accordingly?

vectors and piloting.

Victor airways are designated by the FAA in FAA Order JO 7400.9. They are available for flight below Flight Level 180 (approximately 18,000 feet (5,500 m) above mean sea level (AMSL)) under either instrument flight rules (IFR) or visual flight rules (VFR).

There were two Victor airways between SEATAC and PIA in 1971.  V-23 is the one with the dog-leg Malay Intersection and V-23E was a direct line.  Today V-23 remains the same but V-23E has been renamed V-495.

Dice, if you read the transcripts of the radio communications while the airliner was on the ground at SEATAC, you will find that Cooper paid little attention to a "destination" and was almost solely interested in just getting the airliner off the ground again.

And as Shutter has mentioned, in the Portland area there was an overcast at 5000 feet (with the airliner at 10,000 feet) and several cloud layers below that.  There is no way that Cooper could have determined his exact position.
 
The following users thanked this post: dice

Offline dice

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 268
  • Thanked: 40 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3398 on: June 15, 2017, 10:15:16 AM »
Quote
Cooper paid little attention to a "destination" and was almost solely interested in just getting the airliner off the ground again.

Fine, however this should not be taken solely at face value, nor should anything Cooper did be done so. It should not imply he didn't ultimately care of his final destination.  And its irrelevant, because the manipulation of the destination, would come later, by telling them to fly at FL100 and flaps at 15.  At the time, sure, he'd want to get the bird in the air, where he would be more safe, and in control, along with possibly wanting to the get the caper on the road as so he can jump in some semblance of ambient light. After getting in the air, he could instruct the pilots, as again he was in full control, to then fly where he wants.  Remember he knew a cavalry would be waiting for him when jumping, so everything would be done to decieve and mislead the authorities, into getting them in the wrong spot. 

I simply do not believe the duality that this has gone unsolved and at the same time, and he 'winged' it on where he'd land in the forest, with no planning.... I believe his exit strategy was the most important and planned part of his caper, which includes the jump area, and may even include a man on the ground
« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 10:22:27 AM by dice »
Purdue 38  Iowa 36
 

Offline Kermit

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 361
  • Thanked: 108 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3399 on: June 15, 2017, 11:33:53 AM »
I really don't know why so many take Cooper to be an idiot. He obviously had a pretty well thought out plan up until he jumped. So now he did all this and didn't have a clue once he jumped ? He planned correctly to jump,in the dark as any jump in daylight would result in his being captured quickly. I have posted that I NEVER went hunting in the wilderness without a compass and altimiter. If you want to believe he jumped into the dark woods with no flashlight, no compass or altimiter, then you obviously believe he was an idiot. We know he had a knife and I think he might even had a gun ! You must remember that in 1971, there was no security at airport. If we had a ticket, we could just go to our gate. He gave the order to go to Mexico which meant go south. He further gave orders regarding altitude and speed etc. If he had a compass,flashlight and an altimiter he had all he needed to get out of woods IF in fact he was in woods. He may not have known exactly where the airplane was at when he jumped but he most likely had a good idea. If he lands in river , he died. If not his chances were very good. JMHO
 

Robert99

  • Guest
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3400 on: June 15, 2017, 12:00:51 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Quote
Cooper paid little attention to a "destination" and was almost solely interested in just getting the airliner off the ground again.

Fine, however this should not be taken solely at face value, nor should anything Cooper did be done so. It should not imply he didn't ultimately care of his final destination.  And its irrelevant, because the manipulation of the destination, would come later, by telling them to fly at FL100 and flaps at 15.  At the time, sure, he'd want to get the bird in the air, where he would be more safe, and in control, along with possibly wanting to the get the caper on the road as so he can jump in some semblance of ambient light. After getting in the air, he could instruct the pilots, as again he was in full control, to then fly where he wants.  Remember he knew a cavalry would be waiting for him when jumping, so everything would be done to decieve and mislead the authorities, into getting them in the wrong spot. 

I simply do not believe the duality that this has gone unsolved and at the same time, and he 'winged' it on where he'd land in the forest, with no planning.... I believe his exit strategy was the most important and planned part of his caper, which includes the jump area, and may even include a man on the ground

Dice,

First, there is no such thing as "FL100".

Basically, "Flight Levels" in the USA start at 18,000 feet above sea level with all aircraft setting their altimeters to "29.92 in Hg" at and above that altitude.  There are some relatively minor variations on the altimeter settings due to unusual atmospheric pressure conditions and the appropriate altimeter setting would then be provided by air traffic control.

Flight operations at and above FL180 (18,000 feet) and up to FL600 (60,000 feet) are under IFR flight rules.  Above FL600 (60,000 feet), flight operations are under VFR flight rules.

Cooper planned a night jump from the outset.  Sunset that day was at about 4:45 PM PST in Seattle and, with all the clouds, there would be a very short (just a few minutes) twilight period.  Cooper specified that the money and parachutes be ready by 5:00 PM PST and would not permit the airliner to land until they were ready.  The airliner actually landed at SEATAC at about 5:30 PM PST (this time is not precise).

The airliner took-off for Reno at 7:36 PM PST which was almost three hours after sunset.  With the cloudy weather, it was pitch dark at that point.  Cooper's only input into the flight path south was to agree to the flight crew's statement that they would need to land at Reno (or some other point) to refuel and then would still need another refueling point in order to make it to Mexico.  Cooper did not specify Reno or any other refueling point, the flight crew did that.  There was no further discussion between Cooper and the flight crew about flight paths.  And the airliner flew to Reno just as they had suggested.  Basically, Cooper only specified that they fly south although he did mention Mexico early on.  However, the airliner could not fly from Seattle to Mexico with the aircraft configuration Cooper specified, which Cooper should have known if he had previous experience with the 727.

So whether you believe it or not, there is no evidence at all that Cooper did any detailed planning for this hijacking.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 12:06:14 PM by Robert99 »
 

Offline Kermit

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 361
  • Thanked: 108 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3401 on: June 15, 2017, 12:16:18 PM »
There we go again. There isn't all that much evidence in this case one way or the other ! It's open to opinions and possibilities. I'm open minded and I have an opinion ! I think he was intelligent and NOT an idiot. Who's correct ? Nobody knows ? The fact that it's 45 years ago and NOBODY knows for certain what happened tells me he had a decent plan PERHAPS.
 

Robert99

  • Guest
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3402 on: June 15, 2017, 12:48:36 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
There we go again. There isn't all that much evidence in this case one way or the other ! It's open to opinions and possibilities. I'm open minded and I have an opinion ! I think he was intelligent and NOT an idiot. Who's correct ? Nobody knows ? The fact that it's 45 years ago and NOBODY knows for certain what happened tells me he had a decent plan PERHAPS.

To the best of my knowledge, no one on this site, or even on DZ, has ever called Cooper an idiot.

Also, what in my post on this do you consider to be an "opinion"?

I don't understand your statement that, "The fact that it's 45 years ago and NOBODY knows for certain what happened tells me he had a decent plan PERHAPS.", tells you anything.  Could you explain your logic? 

The only thing that "NOBODY knows for certain what happened" tells me is that NOBODY knows for certain what happened.
 

Offline Kermit

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 361
  • Thanked: 108 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3403 on: June 15, 2017, 01:12:58 PM »
Robert,
I'm not going to argue with you as I've been there before. You have your facts and I call some of them opinions.
 

georger

  • Guest
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3404 on: June 15, 2017, 01:15:46 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
There we go again. There isn't all that much evidence in this case one way or the other ! It's open to opinions and possibilities. I'm open minded and I have an opinion ! I think he was intelligent and NOT an idiot. Who's correct ? Nobody knows ? The fact that it's 45 years ago and NOBODY knows for certain what happened tells me he had a decent plan PERHAPS.

To the best of my knowledge, no one on this site, or even on DZ, has ever called Cooper an idiot.

Also, what in my post on this do you consider to be an "opinion"?

I don't understand your statement that, "The fact that it's 45 years ago and NOBODY knows for certain what happened tells me he had a decent plan PERHAPS.", tells you anything.  Could you explain your logic? 

The only thing that "NOBODY knows for certain what happened" tells me is that NOBODY knows for certain what happened.

This is semantics. Of course he had a plan. He conducted a hijacking vs going fishing that day. That alone may make him an "idiot" - it all depends on your point of view and what type of plan it was. Who he was and his skill base matters, but that's up for debate.

He had a detailed proposal for doing or achieving something.  He formed an intention or decision about what one is going to do. He asked if it was a 727 coming in - a jumpable plane. He issued demands and gave instructions and he executed 'his proposal'. He explained it saying he had been waiting for the right plane in the right place at the right time. That's a "plan".
« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 01:24:10 PM by georger »