Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

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Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find  (Read 1563015 times)

Offline Trapper

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3330 on: June 12, 2017, 03:06:26 PM »

I just want to clarify what I'm trying to express to the forum.  In the past, there have been many definitive statement's "this couldn't have happened or this must have happened" in regards to the Tina Bar Money find.
I believe Kermit is right kind of in regards to ping pong balls….
9 out of 10 times those ping pong balls are flushed out to sea and on their way to Japan.  What I'm saying is 1 out of 10 times those same ping pong balls have a good chance of coming out of one of my listed tributaries and making their way near the Tina bar region depending on the tide and river level.  Remember with the Cooper money we have 200,000 chances well not exactly as the money was bundled and clumped together but you get my drift.
So, who’s, right?  Here's how I propose we begin.  To drop ping pong balls in the Lewis and hope to find them sometime later would be a shot in the dark in my opinion.  In other words, they need to be tracked.  So instead someone from this forum (Meyer has always seemed like a nice level headed guy, Kermit too or anyone for that matter) jump in my boat and we drop 3 crab buoys (see attached picture) at the mouth of the Lewis during flood tide (under the right conditions) and begin to follow them.  Once they reverse course we report to the forum the distance they traveled.  We're not trying to prove exactly where the money came from were just trying to prove it's possible for an object to make the journey I state it can under the right circumstances.  Once proven or dis-proven we jump to the next test.  Money in a bag (as Andre1812 points out bundled money itself only remained buoyant for 15 minutes), further up the Lewis, the mouth of the Kalama, Washougal and so on.  The findings may look like this:
-Buoy 1 traveled in a southerly direction 1.5 miles over a course of 2 hours at which time it reversed course
 -Buoy 2 traveled not only to the region of Tina bar but beyond over the course of 3 hours at which time it reversed direction
- Buoy 3 sank because a local hunter miss-took it for a mallard

 By the way this could take a while so bring a sandwich and your choice of beverage.
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Offline Trapper

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3331 on: June 12, 2017, 03:21:51 PM »
This data from the Bureau of Commercial Fisheries from 1970 may be interesting to some folks out of the area.  It was testing conducted on Flow Reversal in the Columbia around Prescott OR.  I realize Prescott is downstream from Tina Bar but it may give you an idea of what I’m talking about.

The river reversed flow over a 2-year period 646 times for a duration longer than 60 minutes.  21 times it reversed flow for over 5 hours.  Interestingly 1 of the top 4 months for flow reversal was November!

This doesn’t prove anything in regards to my theory but I do think it may give folks a better understanding of the Columbia and what I’m trying to express

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georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3332 on: June 12, 2017, 03:26:23 PM »
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This data from the Bureau of Commercial Fisheries from 1970 may be interesting to some folks out of the area.  It was testing conducted on Flow Reversal in the Columbia around Prescott OR.  I realize Prescott is downstream from Tina Bar but it may give you an idea of what I’m talking about.

The river reversed flow over a 2-year period 646 times for a duration longer than 60 minutes.  21 times it reversed flow for over 5 hours.  Interestingly 1 of the top 4 months for flow reversal was November!

This doesn’t prove anything in regards to my theory but I do think it may give folks a better understanding of the Columbia and what I’m trying to express

You are saying the whole river reverses flow, or just an area of it ... for up to five hours?

There is tidal induced flow reversal in certain areas from time to time ...

Lunar Perigee (highest tides) were on Oct  4 14:52 356711 km ++ F+   2h in 1971 ? Not November.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2017, 03:50:22 PM by georger »
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3333 on: June 12, 2017, 03:48:21 PM »
The money is on the bottom of the river.....
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georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3334 on: June 12, 2017, 03:57:13 PM »
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The money is on the bottom of the river.....

Maybe this is old news but Fazio thought the money had been brought up with the tide - based on the fact he observed the Ingram find was "right on the high tide line for last night". Case closed.  :))

Of course what he didn't know was there were fragments deeper than the Ingram find, out to an area of 40 yards?   
« Last Edit: June 12, 2017, 04:00:05 PM by georger »
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Offline Trapper

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3335 on: June 12, 2017, 03:59:38 PM »
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This data from the Bureau of Commercial Fisheries from 1970 may be interesting to some folks out of the area.  It was testing conducted on Flow Reversal in the Columbia around Prescott OR.  I realize Prescott is downstream from Tina Bar but it may give you an idea of what I’m talking about.

The river reversed flow over a 2-year period 646 times for a duration longer than 60 minutes.  21 times it reversed flow for over 5 hours.  Interestingly 1 of the top 4 months for flow reversal was November!

This doesn’t prove anything in regards to my theory but I do think it may give folks a better understanding of the Columbia and what I’m trying to express

You are saying the whole river reverses flow, or just an area of it ... for up to five hours?

There is tidal induced flow reversal in certain areas from time to time ...

Lunar Perigee (highest tides) were on Oct  4 14:52 356711 km ++ F+   2h in 1971 ? Not November.

The 5-hour reference would only be for the Prescott location (based on the data I read).  The further downstream (closer to the ocean) you got the longer the duration of reverse flow.  The further upstream (further from the ocean) the shorter the duration of reverse flow because of the tidal influence.
I spoke with a good friend who was born and raised in Woodland (Lewis River area) yesterday and he stated without doubt he has seen reverse flows on many occasions longer than 4 hours very near the mouth of the Lewis.
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georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3336 on: June 12, 2017, 04:01:23 PM »
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This data from the Bureau of Commercial Fisheries from 1970 may be interesting to some folks out of the area.  It was testing conducted on Flow Reversal in the Columbia around Prescott OR.  I realize Prescott is downstream from Tina Bar but it may give you an idea of what I’m talking about.

The river reversed flow over a 2-year period 646 times for a duration longer than 60 minutes.  21 times it reversed flow for over 5 hours.  Interestingly 1 of the top 4 months for flow reversal was November!

This doesn’t prove anything in regards to my theory but I do think it may give folks a better understanding of the Columbia and what I’m trying to express

You are saying the whole river reverses flow, or just an area of it ... for up to five hours?

There is tidal induced flow reversal in certain areas from time to time ...

Lunar Perigee (highest tides) were on Oct  4 14:52 356711 km ++ F+   2h in 1971 ? Not November.

The 5-hour reference would only be for the Prescott location (based on the data I read).  The further downstream (closer to the ocean) you got the longer the duration of reverse flow.  The further upstream (further from the ocean) the shorter the duration of reverse flow because of the tidal influence.
I spoke with a good friend who was born and raised in Woodland (Lewis River area) yesterday and he stated without doubt he has seen reverse flows on many occasions longer than 4 hours very near the mouth of the Lewis.

Are these reverses associated with tides? Or circulation eddies that form and persist for a time ... say with passing large ships?
« Last Edit: June 12, 2017, 04:03:25 PM by georger »
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Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3337 on: June 12, 2017, 04:24:43 PM »
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This data from the Bureau of Commercial Fisheries from 1970 may be interesting to some folks out of the area.  It was testing conducted on Flow Reversal in the Columbia around Prescott OR.  I realize Prescott is downstream from Tina Bar but it may give you an idea of what I’m talking about.

The river reversed flow over a 2-year period 646 times for a duration longer than 60 minutes.  21 times it reversed flow for over 5 hours.  Interestingly 1 of the top 4 months for flow reversal was November!

This doesn’t prove anything in regards to my theory but I do think it may give folks a better understanding of the Columbia and what I’m trying to express

You are saying the whole river reverses flow, or just an area of it ... for up to five hours?

There is tidal induced flow reversal in certain areas from time to time ...

Lunar Perigee (highest tides) were on Oct  4 14:52 356711 km ++ F+   2h in 1971 ? Not November.

The 5-hour reference would only be for the Prescott location (based on the data I read).  The further downstream (closer to the ocean) you got the longer the duration of reverse flow.  The further upstream (further from the ocean) the shorter the duration of reverse flow because of the tidal influence.
I spoke with a good friend who was born and raised in Woodland (Lewis River area) yesterday and he stated without doubt he has seen reverse flows on many occasions longer than 4 hours very near the mouth of the Lewis.

Are these reverses associated with tides? Or circulation eddies that form and persist for a time ... say with passing large ships?

Is information available for the tide levels at Astoria during these periods of reverse flow?
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Offline Trapper

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3338 on: June 12, 2017, 04:26:14 PM »
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This data from the Bureau of Commercial Fisheries from 1970 may be interesting to some folks out of the area.  It was testing conducted on Flow Reversal in the Columbia around Prescott OR.  I realize Prescott is downstream from Tina Bar but it may give you an idea of what I’m talking about.

The river reversed flow over a 2-year period 646 times for a duration longer than 60 minutes.  21 times it reversed flow for over 5 hours.  Interestingly 1 of the top 4 months for flow reversal was November!

This doesn’t prove anything in regards to my theory but I do think it may give folks a better understanding of the Columbia and what I’m trying to express

You are saying the whole river reverses flow, or just an area of it ... for up to five hours?

There is tidal induced flow reversal in certain areas from time to time ...

Lunar Perigee (highest tides) were on Oct  4 14:52 356711 km ++ F+   2h in 1971 ? Not November.

The 5-hour reference would only be for the Prescott location (based on the data I read).  The further downstream (closer to the ocean) you got the longer the duration of reverse flow.  The further upstream (further from the ocean) the shorter the duration of reverse flow because of the tidal influence.
I spoke with a good friend who was born and raised in Woodland (Lewis River area) yesterday and he stated without doubt he has seen reverse flows on many occasions longer than 4 hours very near the mouth of the Lewis.

Are these reverses associated with tides? Or circulation eddies that form and persist for a time ... say with passing large ships?

Reverse flow is directly related to the flood tide.  Although large ships / barges displaced water they do not reverse flow in my opinion (or at least at any detectable level for me)
The other huge factor in the reverse flow is how much water was being released from the Bonneville.  In other words, the rate of flow (CFS).  Rain / Snow melt also affected CFS.
Okay now I am way out of my league. But the point is the tide vs the downstream flow dictated the reverse flow in my experience.
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Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3339 on: June 12, 2017, 04:31:53 PM »
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This data from the Bureau of Commercial Fisheries from 1970 may be interesting to some folks out of the area.  It was testing conducted on Flow Reversal in the Columbia around Prescott OR.  I realize Prescott is downstream from Tina Bar but it may give you an idea of what I’m talking about.

The river reversed flow over a 2-year period 646 times for a duration longer than 60 minutes.  21 times it reversed flow for over 5 hours.  Interestingly 1 of the top 4 months for flow reversal was November!

This doesn’t prove anything in regards to my theory but I do think it may give folks a better understanding of the Columbia and what I’m trying to express

You are saying the whole river reverses flow, or just an area of it ... for up to five hours?

There is tidal induced flow reversal in certain areas from time to time ...

Lunar Perigee (highest tides) were on Oct  4 14:52 356711 km ++ F+   2h in 1971 ? Not November.

The 5-hour reference would only be for the Prescott location (based on the data I read).  The further downstream (closer to the ocean) you got the longer the duration of reverse flow.  The further upstream (further from the ocean) the shorter the duration of reverse flow because of the tidal influence.
I spoke with a good friend who was born and raised in Woodland (Lewis River area) yesterday and he stated without doubt he has seen reverse flows on many occasions longer than 4 hours very near the mouth of the Lewis.

Are these reverses associated with tides? Or circulation eddies that form and persist for a time ... say with passing large ships?

Actually, you don't even need the passing ships.  There will be "upstream" flow at the shore lines, of one magnitude or another, at times just due to the normal vorticity in the channel caused by the flow in the main stream being faster than the flow at the shore lines (which is slowed by "boundary effects").
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3340 on: June 12, 2017, 04:39:38 PM »
Quote
Maybe this is old news but Fazio thought the money had been brought up with the tide

Everyone seems to assume the money floated on top for days, months, or years? the current will be different below vs top..
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Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3341 on: June 12, 2017, 04:42:47 PM »
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Quote
Maybe this is old news but Fazio thought the money had been brought up with the tide

Everyone seems to assume the money floated on top for days, months, or years? the current will be different below vs top..

You are 100 percent correct!
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3342 on: June 12, 2017, 05:05:33 PM »
we have some much evidence that is inconsistent..

The Fazio's claim they spread sand only 50 yards each way, but Palmer finds dredge layers over 100 yards away?
Fine course sand was found in samples taken in front of Tina Bar, exactly what they use vs clay...
The actual amount the Ingram's found. reports of agents finding a fist size clump/wad of money..
Early reports state $3,000...
Carr found documents stating 4 bundles...
I'm sure I left some out....
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Offline Trapper

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3343 on: June 12, 2017, 05:21:26 PM »
Hello Shutter

“The money is on the bottom of the river…â€

That is the entire point of the conversation.  The question is how in god’s name did it get there?  So as citizen sleuths / DB Cooper enthusiasts we have to start with a theory and then begin to prove or disprove that theory:
Flyjack = Money hooked on the plane itself and fell at a later time
Robert99 = Cooper died near Tina bar Money find
Trapper = Arrived via water way by natural means

So, I believe it could have traveled out of multiple rivers on its own based on my experience.  So, I proposed starting with 3 buoys at the Lewis which is the easiest test.  If the test is conducted and the buoys don’t even come close I have to return to this forum and eat crow.  Which I have done before (in my personal life) and I’m not afraid to do again.  But it would provide valuable information because at that point we could exclude multiple rivers beyond the Lewis thus narrowing the area / means in which the money arrived.
Now if successful move to step 2.  Could a money bag / bundle of money make that same journey?
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3344 on: June 12, 2017, 05:24:32 PM »
It's really hard to say. the money could of been on shore and flooding brought the money to it's location. if the money was on the bottom, it's going to be extremely difficult to climb out on it's own...
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