Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

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Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find  (Read 1364522 times)

Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3315 on: June 11, 2017, 02:11:39 PM »
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In my opinion, that ring was probably used on a canvas cover for barges that were carrying wheat or fruits from upstream.

sounds like a grommet?

It didn't look like a grommet.
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georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3316 on: June 11, 2017, 05:05:10 PM »
Palmer noted: older soda pop cans, rusted nails and spikes, and other rusted metal artifacts. Some of those metal objects probably arrived in wood or suspended in other debris. By 1980, Tena Bar had been replenished many times over the years by dredging sediments containing all kinds of metal artifacts. Passing ships cast off debris.

I dont under-estimate the power of the Columbia waters (currents) to move things around, in a variety of directions over time. The system of possibilities is so large however, that's its impossible to draw any hard conclusions. Within that universe of options something specific caused the Ingram money to be where it was found. A lack of agreement between Kaye and Palmer leaves us uncertain about what time scale is involved (Nov 1871 to Feb 1980). The Ingram bundles and fragments found nearby at depths as deep as three feet leaves us perplexed and seems to represent a span of years, if the strata at Tena Bar are a reliable clock at all? In the midst of that uncertainty we do have one single event which did occur - the dredging in 1974 which put material on Tina Bar .. very close or even at the same location where the Ingram money was found. It's tempting to tie the two events together.         
« Last Edit: June 11, 2017, 05:24:24 PM by georger »
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3317 on: June 11, 2017, 10:21:13 PM »
Only a couple things can be tested in this event...putting bundles of money in the sand for long periods, and finding a dredge to run simulated bills through and see if they can survive the trip. as soon as the river decides to work with us, we can begin our project..

Perhaps a visit to the Army Corps in the future? right off the Morrison Bridge (downtown)
333 SW First Ave.
Portland, OR 97204-3440
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3318 on: June 11, 2017, 10:25:11 PM »
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MeyerLouie

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3319 on: June 12, 2017, 03:12:22 AM »
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Only a couple things can be tested in this event...putting bundles of money in the sand for long periods, and finding a dredge to run simulated bills through and see if they can survive the trip. as soon as the river decides to work with us, we can begin our project..

Perhaps a visit to the Army Corps in the future? right off the Morrison Bridge (downtown)
333 SW First Ave.
Portland, OR 97204-3440

Why not?  Pick a spot they're working, ask them to dredge up a made up money bag and see what happens.  Can't hurt to ask.  Meyer
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3320 on: June 12, 2017, 05:55:49 AM »
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Why not?  Pick a spot they're working, ask them to dredge up a made up money bag and see what happens.  Can't hurt to ask.  Meyer

You need some what of a controlled test. when the material comes out where ever the pipe ends it's nothing but slurry, or 90% water, a huge pond of water forms. you would have to stop the dredging then allow the sand to dry.

The perfect test would be from a pump manufacture, but they are over seas.


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Offline dice

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3321 on: June 12, 2017, 07:11:23 AM »
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Only a couple things can be tested in this event...putting bundles of money in the sand for long periods, and finding a dredge to run simulated bills through and see if they can survive the trip. as soon as the river decides to work with us, we can begin our project..

Perhaps a visit to the Army Corps in the future? right off the Morrison Bridge (downtown)
333 SW First Ave.
Portland, OR 97204-3440

Why not?  Pick a spot they're working, ask them to dredge up a made up money bag and see what happens.  Can't hurt to ask.  Meyer

I'd have expected a fragment of the bag left behind in the sand with the money, if this dredge scenario occurred Mayer
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3322 on: June 12, 2017, 07:21:18 AM »
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I'd have expected a fragment of the bag left behind in the sand with the money, if this dredge scenario occurred Mayer

That depends, or is in question as well. the pipe was right on the beach, very close to the shore. as you see in the video the material forms a giant pond and a lot of material ends up going right back into the river. I have a photo from the mid 80's showing the pipe further up on land and the material still runs off back into the river. the largest hurdle to get over with the dredge theory is getting past the pump intact. I've spoken to several pump companies and they believe it could get past the pump. a test would either support the theory, or bust it...
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3323 on: June 12, 2017, 07:29:44 AM »
90,000+ cubic yards of material were dumped in two places (spoils) right on the shoreline. they spread the material over the beach. that's why the spoils were so close to the edge. thousands of yards remained on the shoreline and could be seen for years to follow..
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Offline dice

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3324 on: June 12, 2017, 08:43:19 AM »
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90,000+ cubic yards of material were dumped in two places (spoils) right on the shoreline. they spread the material over the beach. that's why the spoils were so close to the edge. thousands of yards remained on the shoreline and could be seen for years to follow..

I may have digressed from the content here, but I wanted to say, regarding the concept of the bag as the transport... that if we assume the three bundles arrived on the bar and protected by bag (rubber bands were still on), then one would expect fragments of the bag in that sand dig, i.e. how unlikely would it be that the bag completely breaks away with no fragments, etc and the bundles stack nicely on top of each other...   in absence of bag material, I would think the bundles did not go through the dredge, and that they arrived in that spot and remained static, with no bag either, which is the only way the rubber bands had a chance, and the bands intact are still unlikely.  And that brings up something else... do bricks of cash float? if yes, i would imagine they saturate within a few days, and then lose buoyancy.   

And doing a ping pong ball test seems it'll give alot of false conclusions, as they are near weightless....   Trapper should use for his test, bricks of fake currency instead, and he'll find they'd be too heavy to travel more than one eddy current upstream, before they get trapped in a bend, if not sink.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2017, 09:13:37 AM by dice »
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3325 on: June 12, 2017, 11:46:07 AM »
The bag could of separated and wouldn't have to be in pieces...it's hard to say just as any other theory..the fact Remains that the sand was dumped right on a crime scene..did it happen this way, I don't know....
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georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3326 on: June 12, 2017, 12:08:06 PM »
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90,000+ cubic yards of material were dumped in two places (spoils) right on the shoreline. they spread the material over the beach. that's why the spoils were so close to the edge. thousands of yards remained on the shoreline and could be seen for years to follow..

I may have digressed from the content here, but I wanted to say, regarding the concept of the bag as the transport... that if we assume the three bundles arrived on the bar and protected by bag (rubber bands were still on), then one would expect fragments of the bag in that sand dig, i.e. how unlikely would it be that the bag completely breaks away with no fragments, etc and the bundles stack nicely on top of each other...   in absence of bag material, I would think the bundles did not go through the dredge, and that they arrived in that spot and remained static, with no bag either, which is the only way the rubber bands had a chance, and the bands intact are still unlikely.  And that brings up something else... do bricks of cash float? if yes, i would imagine they saturate within a few days, and then lose buoyancy.   

And doing a ping pong ball test seems it'll give alot of false conclusions, as they are near weightless....   Trapper should use for his test, bricks of fake currency instead, and he'll find they'd be too heavy to travel more than one eddy current upstream, before they get trapped in a bend, if not sink.

Does the the Cooper money at Tina Bar look like the end result of a mass event of some kind - like after an explosion? A few big pieces, a few small pieces scattered, lots of tiny fragments too many to collect, and a massive amount of 'stuff' impossible to identify as money, sand, or slim? The agents said there was a lot of this 'slim' around some fist-sized globes of it scattered around! The totality of that scene may be 'the Cooper money' after some event - like the dredging/chopping of the bag of money. If they had only done some more detailed forensic work on this 'stuff' we might have a more accurate picture of the whole thing in-and-around the Ingram bundles. The bundles could be just part of the story, say 10% of the story? 3% ?  1% ?

Something has to account for the distribution of fragments at various depths in an area with the bundles on top. That whole scene is what was once Cooper bundles. Now those bundles and their contents have been distributed, some how.

It's either a single mass event or its the result of some process occurring over time resulting in fragments distributed through several strata down to three feet.

 ;)



 
     
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georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3327 on: June 12, 2017, 01:20:13 PM »
[JACK BECHLY, Civil Engineer Chief , Waterways Maintenance Branch, Navigation Division, U.S. Army Engineer District]

The dredging spoils were deposited at the FAZIO Brothers’ location between August 19 through the 25th, and a USGS Photo of that location was taken, date – 9 06 74.  The material consisted of 91,100 cubic yards of fill and was spread with tractors probably over a area of 50 yards in each direction according to the contract. (The Fazios did the spreading using their tractors and the exact amount of spreading is unknown.)

Tom Kaye has used the '50 yard' figure above to declare that 'it is proof that the Ingram money was too far distant to have been associated with the 1974 dredging spoils', in spite of the fact BECHLY's actual words are "probably over an area of 50 yards...".

The USGS photo of Tina Bar taken 9 06 74 shows details not previously resolved. See photo attached.

When the USGS 9/6/74 photo is enhanced further detail is revealed. Differences in details is noted between the north vs. south dredging spoil sites. Contours or lines are visible in the north spoil site which are missing in the southern spoil site. These contours or lines of surface detail could be tractor spreading tracks since that work was just completed by 9/6/74. What is worth noting is that these 'contours' or 'track lines' extend well beyond the 50 yard limit Kaye cited, in the direction of the Ingram find. I think there is a very good chance what the photo captured was the contours of the spreading work Bechly notes, which had just been completed.   

The yellow dot marks the money find location. The money sits right up against some bushes and trees which could have acted as a catchment in the direction of river flow.

 


« Last Edit: June 12, 2017, 01:31:56 PM by georger »
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georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3328 on: June 12, 2017, 01:22:03 PM »
Here is another false color image of the 9/6/74 photo showing contour lines in the north dredging spoil site.

The direction of river flow is toward the north.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2017, 01:27:45 PM by georger »
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georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3329 on: June 12, 2017, 01:22:26 PM »
and another -
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