Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find (Read 1364398 times)

Shutter · « **Reply #3225 on:** May 19, 2017, 12:12:08 AM »

Tom didn't have a lot to say. he did find the same documents we have seen. he was always under the impression that the numbers were random, and not the bundles..

we read often that the numbers were prerecorded, I get that part, but if you make random bundles they would need to know where they stop and start. if they didn't, how did they know the Tbars were they same as when they left the FBI's hands? was the cash stacked in the order they recorded them, it would still take a while to bundle and mark?

Head spinner for sure.....

georger · « **Reply #3226 on:** May 19, 2017, 12:14:16 AM »

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Tom didn't have a lot to say. he did find the same documents we have seen. he was always under the impression that the numbers were random, and not the bundles..

we read often that the numbers were prerecorded, I get that part, but if you make random bundles they would need to know where they stop and start. if they didn't, how did they know the Tbars were they same as when they left the FBI's hands? was the cash stacked in the order they recorded them, it would still take a while to bundle and mark?

Head spinner for sure.....

Baker asked and answered the same exact questions. Read the Baker citations.

Baker says it was the Lab that looked for numbers on Ingram's bills and did the actual accounting. That's very clear.

If we didn;t have Baker's citations (his report) everyone would have been totally lost in this, including Ckret in 2009! Ckret had to rebuild this from scratch.

The other question is: what exactly did Gray and Kaye find and read at Seattle! Did they find and read Baker's report and reports like his?

*IMHO if Gray or Kaye had sensed something really wrong in the money story. they would have been all over this. In other words, FlyJack is not the first person to ask for an accounting and answers to these money questions! And attorneys asked for an accounting! That does not mean: the Ingtram find was Seafirst money and a plant of money not given to Cooper.

Shutter · « **Reply #3227 on:** May 19, 2017, 12:23:35 AM »

Here is what Tom had to say. he didn't answer all of my question since he was leaving for DC. I asked him about the missing numbers on the 34 page list....anyway, his reply

Quote

So I looked through our docs and one of them matches Gray’s document. In another it says “made up entirely of random, used 20 dollar bills”. Also states “ the entire list of the ransom bills had previously been microfilmed by the Seattle-First National Bank and has now been incorporated in a 34 page pamphlet of ransom bills”. “The film canister which was handed to Captain Bennett contained a microfilm upon which was recorded the serial numbers of all the bills which were given to the hijacker….”

This is the only info we have pertinent to the questions at hand. Remember, there is more than one 302 so the others could have slightly different info. You can share on the forum.

Tom

Partial of first email

Quote

It was my understanding that only the serial numbers were random not the packaging.

georger · « **Reply #3228 on:** May 19, 2017, 12:33:25 AM »

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Here is what Tom had to say. he didn't answer all of my question since he was leaving for DC. I asked him about the missing numbers on the 34 page list....anyway, his reply

Quote
So I looked through our docs and one of them matches Gray’s document. In another it says “made up entirely of random, used 20 dollar bills”. Also states “ the entire list of the ransom bills had previously been microfilmed by the Seattle-First National Bank and has now been incorporated in a 34 page pamphlet of ransom bills”. “The film canister which was handed to Captain Bennett contained a microfilm upon which was recorded the serial numbers of all the bills which were given to the hijacker….”

This is the only info we have pertinent to the questions at hand. Remember, there is more than one 302 so the others could have slightly different info. You can share on the forum.

Tom

Partial of first email

Quote
It was my understanding that only the serial numbers were random not the packaging.

I agree with the first 100%.

I disagree with the last based on Ckret's conversation with the bank person. Prior to Larry talking to the bank guy we all thought the Ingram bundles were $2000@, just as Tom says. Except we thought the Ingram find might be some-thing like 2.83454647 bundles! Not three whole bundles. Then the Baker report came up which seems to confirm Larry's conversation with the bank guy!

During none of this above is there anything to suggest the Ingram find was anything other than Cooper ransom money given Cooper on the plane by the FBI and Mucklow.

<edit> let me gather together everything I have from the Baker report - will post it later.

Shutter · « **Reply #3229 on:** May 19, 2017, 12:56:07 AM »

IMO what Tom has quoted appears to explain the random used 20 dollar bills were just that, used bills with numbers being random, but doesn't state what Carr explains. not saying it isn't true but just implies the bills were used and the serial numbers not following in any order....?

georger · « **Reply #3230 on:** May 19, 2017, 12:56:21 AM »

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Here is what Tom had to say. he didn't answer all of my question since he was leaving for DC. I asked him about the missing numbers on the 34 page list....anyway, his reply

Quote
So I looked through our docs and one of them matches Gray’s document. In another it says “made up entirely of random, used 20 dollar bills”. Also states “ the entire list of the ransom bills had previously been microfilmed by the Seattle-First National Bank and has now been incorporated in a 34 page pamphlet of ransom bills”. “The film canister which was handed to Captain Bennett contained a microfilm upon which was recorded the serial numbers of all the bills which were given to the hijacker….”

This is the only info we have pertinent to the questions at hand. Remember, there is more than one 302 so the others could have slightly different info. You can share on the forum.

Tom

Partial of first email

Quote
It was my understanding that only the serial numbers were random not the packaging.

One more thing.

Remember, according to the Baker report, it was the Lab who tried to account for the order of the bills in the Ingram find. The best the Lab could do was examine the contents of all of the groups the Ingrams delivered to H in their shoebox. The serial numbers in the fund at the bank were in "random" order, just as Tom cites above. That random order was registered in the bank's microfiche. If I understand Baker, he says the Lab found the Ingram bills in the same 'random' order as on the bank's original microfiche. In other words, each group of bills the Ingrams turned in showed the same random order of the same serial numbers. Baker's conclusion (and the Lab's conclusion): the Ingram find bills were still in the same serial number order as when the bank had bundled the bills and they had been given to Cooper. The total mount of the Ingram find was what was in question. But Baker's conclusion was that the Ingram find bills had not been tampered with and was still in the same order as when given to Cooper.

georger · « **Reply #3231 on:** May 19, 2017, 12:59:29 AM »

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IMO what Tom has quoted appears to explain the random used 20 dollar bills were just that, used bills with numbers being random, but doesn't state what Carr explains. not saying it isn't true but just implies the bills were used and the serial numbers not following in any order....?

The bill serial numbers were in a random order at the bank.
Bundles equaling $200k were made from those bills still in the same random serial number order.
The bundles made by the bank were given to Cooper, still in the same random serial number order.
And according to the Baker report the FBI Lab confirmed in late Feb 1980 that the Ingram find bills were still in the same random serial number order.

Make sense?

MeyerLouie · « **Reply #3232 on:** May 19, 2017, 07:04:30 AM »

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Flyjack, we are not going to run this again two, or three pages.

Nobody has shown any proof the bundles found were $2,000, everyone assumes this, including Kaye..how do we know if bundles of $2,000 remained in the cash?

Quote
It was my understanding that only the serial numbers were random not the packaging.

If the bank did shuffle the bundles, I don't think it would be too hard to lay all 125 bundles on a table separating the 30 grand from Coopers money. they supplied a list and groups of numbers to delete making it possible they took out two serial numbers too many. the letter tells the story of them contacting Al Lee about the missing numbers. we don't have any follow up about this whether it was address or not. the lawyer also asked for the bank to check on this problem. lawyers usually don't let things go, it's possible we have something, but we don't have the full story...

Kaye goes onto explain that the FBI has more than one binder of 302's, and contained mixed information, as in one would not have all the information, and the other 302 did. we DON'T have all the information surrounding this. it does need attention, but posting over and over trying to convince the world is non productive.

I was answering Mark's legit question.

and I asked previously for confirmation about the claims about TBAR bundles being in 100's. I NEVER made the claim as fact, I was asking for FACTS to support the widely held beleifs, reports and claims. Everyone confirmed it, even Georger, were they or not? You can't have it have both ways.. No way they were if all the DBC bundles random sized.

Physically separating the money wasn't the issue, verifying the tracking of the actual DBC bill numbers is.

Absolutely clear that some of you just don't see the inconsistencies here. This could be a big deal in this case and some of you have completely missed it.

Everyone believes TBAR was in 100's and DBC bundles were random and I am the only one that see's the inconsistency. Hard to believe.

Right FLYJERK, you're the only who sees the light, who sees the inconsistencies -- a closet genius waiting to come out. You make a lot of claims -- that's
really all you've brought to the table here -- then you villify others when they can't verify or prove your claims with facts and data. Play by the same rules you expect others to play by. Verify your own claims with your own facts and data. Quit attacking others for not providing an adequate explanation for your claims. I'm already tired of your approach and manner. Get a life.

MeyerLouie

MeyerLouie · « **Reply #3233 on:** May 19, 2017, 07:05:49 AM »

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Here is what Tom had to say. he didn't answer all of my question since he was leaving for DC. I asked him about the missing numbers on the 34 page list....anyway, his reply

Quote
So I looked through our docs and one of them matches Gray’s document. In another it says “made up entirely of random, used 20 dollar bills”. Also states “ the entire list of the ransom bills had previously been microfilmed by the Seattle-First National Bank and has now been incorporated in a 34 page pamphlet of ransom bills”. “The film canister which was handed to Captain Bennett contained a microfilm upon which was recorded the serial numbers of all the bills which were given to the hijacker….”

This is the only info we have pertinent to the questions at hand. Remember, there is more than one 302 so the others could have slightly different info. You can share on the forum.

Tom

Partial of first email

Quote
It was my understanding that only the serial numbers were random not the packaging.

One more thing.

Remember, according to the Baker report, it was the Lab who tried to account for the order of the bills in the Ingram find. The best the Lab could do was examine the contents of all of the groups the Ingrams delivered to H in their shoebox. The serial numbers in the fund at the bank were in "random" order, just as Tom cites above. That random order was registered in the bank's microfiche. If I understand Baker, he says the Lab found the Ingram bills in the same 'random' order as on the bank's original microfiche. In other words, each group of bills the Ingrams turned in showed the same random order of the same serial numbers. Baker's conclusion (and the Lab's conclusion): the Ingram find bills were still in the same serial number order as when the bank had bundled the bills and they had been given to Cooper. The total mount of the Ingram find was what was in question. But Baker's conclusion was that the Ingram find bills had not been tampered with and was still in the same order as when given to Cooper.

DID YOU GET THAT, FLYJACK?

Bruce A. Smith · « **Reply #3234 on:** May 19, 2017, 01:42:31 PM »

Meyer, please stop your personal attacks on Flyjack. They are hard for readers to avoid, and are toxic and unpleasant to see on a near-daily basis.

georger · « **Reply #3235 on:** May 19, 2017, 03:42:58 PM »

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wow! what a description. hard to believe it was that informal. LETS HAVE A PAR-DY!

The guy counts out $250k by counting bundles? Who told him how much was in each bundle?

Duuuh, Why didnt the WSHM lady ask him how he knew how much was in each bundle! ?

Why is this guy counting money at the airport AT THE LAST SECOND - AT ALL! ?

Who is fueling the plane - the kids at the candy stand? Whooo Hoooo Lets have a PAR'DY!

The Petersen interview is complete bullshit!

any further comments or reasons?

I loved listening to the Loren Peterson interview. Very informative. Thank you Shut for putting it up. I had missed it at the WSHS site.

But how much is accurate or truthful? He doesn't remember Al Lee? Whew. Could that really be true? Was Al Lee confused with Joe May by reporters, GG, et al.?

Al Lee is referred to by name in the flight comm transcripts. He was there. The guy who drove up to the plane with the chutes and the money and met Tina, who took everything on the plane for Cooper.

Peterson says he counted out $250,000 in banded bundles from the bank bag and transferred that into a flight bag, and his Manager, Joe May, took that to the airplane. No mention of Al Lee. How was he able to count out $250k? He knew the value of each bundle? How? So, according to Peterson Cooper was given $250,000, not $200,000. He does not say he counted or tampered with the contents of the bundles in any way. Did NWA Air Freight and Joe May sign off with the FBI guy delivering the money, a receipt for the bank? Peterson says the FBI guy did not even sign a receipt at the bank when he received the money - they opened the door at the bank and handed the bag of money through the open door to the FBI guy, no receipts signed. Peterson says one chute came from McChord.

Why is some guy at NWA Air Freight asked by his manager to count out the Cooper money to be given to Cooper? And Peterson actually transfers the bundled money from the bank bag into a NWA tot bag to be delivered to Cooper? So many bags of different origins and descriptions I cant keep track of them all!

He does say he put the original bank bag in the NWA tot bag along with the bundles so that explains how Cooper had a white bank bag (Peterson had slit open he says) to pour money into and tie around his waste as per Mucklow's description. This in fact is fit stuff for a Cooper comic! Is this how Dan Cooper did it in Quebec and Belgium?

Lose ends for sure, but to conclude from this and other lose ends that the money given to Cooper and the money at Tina Bar are different monies, deposited by different people, is a stretch. That seems to be where FlyJack is headed with this. In fact, maybe the bank bag was full of radios and a few hundred dollars and $250,000 was left in Al Lee's car and Lee and Jo May planted the Ingram money at Tina Bar ... because the Ingrams and Lee and May were best buds?

georger · « **Reply #3236 on:** May 19, 2017, 04:49:34 PM »

The Peterson story:

It seems that Peterson's account is a mixture of things he heard, thing he assumed, and things he did, personally. It's strange this was all apparently missed by Ckret. Kaye, GG, Smith etal. Joe May may have handed off to Al Lee?

Why would Peterson even be asked to count out $250,000 and place it in a bag. Was the count to just confirm $250,000 was there? Or was there $500,000 in this bag with Peterson being asked to count of $250,000 for Cooper? Why didn't WSHM clarify this with Peterson when they had the chance!?? The WSHM lady's voice goes so low at times even Peterson had to ask her to speak up - he says: "I cant hear what you are saying!"

Here we go again. Will Smith revise his book to include this somehow?

We sit in blissful isolation on these forums .... while the real world goes on around us.

Shutter · « **Reply #3237 on:** May 19, 2017, 04:52:41 PM »

According to the document, the money arrived at "the office" in a black leather satchel by security officer by the name of Frank J. Burns. the bag was removed and the seal was cut by Willian C. Grinnell, another security officer from the bank. the money was opened to verify cash was in the bag, but wasn't counted. it was then handed over to Al Lee...

The bag was one foot by one foot by eight or nine inches...no Loren Peterson mentioned..

Kermit · « **Reply #3238 on:** May 19, 2017, 05:02:23 PM »

Wasn't this interview done many years after the highjacking. Much of his interview is done by him recalling things as HE recalls them. I do not consider anything he says as factual as some of it might be 100% true but some of it sounds like he's trying to put himself into the situation to make him seem more important. Some of his recollections differs from many others and quite frankly doesn't sound logical.

Shutter · « **Reply #3239 on:** May 19, 2017, 05:04:42 PM »

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Wasn't this interview done many years after the highjacking. Much of his interview is done by him recalling things as HE recalls them. I do not consider anything he says as factual as some of it might be 100% true but some of it sounds like he's trying to put himself into the situation to make him seem more important. Some of his recollections differs from many others and quite frankly doesn't sound logical.

Agreed, I think he was taking information given to him at the time, or he over heard some of this and time has altered his own facts of what he believes happened. it's possible he's trying to put himself into the scene as well...

The interview was done several years ago, not sure of exact date...

Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find (Read 1364398 times)

Shutter

Re: Tina Bar Money Find

georger

Re: Tina Bar Money Find

Shutter

Re: Tina Bar Money Find

georger

Re: Tina Bar Money Find

Shutter

Re: Tina Bar Money Find

georger

Re: Tina Bar Money Find

georger

Re: Tina Bar Money Find

MeyerLouie

Re: Tina Bar Money Find

MeyerLouie

Re: Tina Bar Money Find

Bruce A. Smith

Re: Tina Bar Money Find

georger

Re: Tina Bar Money Find

georger

Re: Tina Bar Money Find

Shutter

Re: Tina Bar Money Find

Kermit

Re: Tina Bar Money Find

Shutter

Re: Tina Bar Money Find