Lets see what Georger says about using just a #14 rubber band vs what alliance has and was used with Tom's testing..

The bands Tom gave me several years ago are now failing. I asked Tom if he had anymore and he said he wouldn't trust the one's he has either. it sounds like we need to get the same bands from Alliance vs using any other band.

on my way out the door, so I will take this up once I return from work...

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I don't see any conflict between Ckret and Kaye (transcript)..

The only issue that needs clearing up is the bank guy making DBC bundles irregular and TBAR regular 3x100 bundles..


The greater issue is the FBI had nothing to do with recording any of the bills or maintaining the integrity of the MICRO list vs the $250k emergency stash.

So, any error by the bank is unverifiable and would produce a bogus FBI list. We need to know when the Micro was made and a chain of custody for the $250k emergency stash. Canister/Micro is gone. WHY

One Example: A year before a $25k ransom was paid and the guy was arrested in Portland. FBI refused to admit if the money was recovered. If the bank had taken the $25k from the emergency stash then replaced it without re-photographing the entire MICRO list in order then the $25k ransom bills serial numbers would end up in the DBC list and it is then possible that the TBAR money is from that $25k ransom.

There is no evidence that the MICRO list in the canister given to the FBI maintained by the bank 100% matched the $250k emergency stash. If it didn't then the edited and published alpha numeric FBI list is wrong and would contain bill numbers never given to DBC.

.

FLYJACK,

Your attempts to change the facts in order to support your candidate of choice are obvious.

You apparently are trying to claim that the Tina Bar money was not even part of the money given to Cooper.

And you are trying to claim that the location of Cooper's jump is nowhere close to Tina Bar or the original FBI proposed jump zone.

With such "alternate facts", why don't you just claim Cooper hijacked a United 727 and bailed out near Spokane?

nonsense,
what facts have I changed?

You are just trying to protect your theory..

And you are just trying to change facts so you can introduce your "Cooper candidate".

No,

You fail to identify the facts that you claim I have changed.
and
This has zero impact on any suspect and whether they died in the jump or survived.


Fact: Some identified TBAR bill serial numbers matched the FBI list.

Fact: The FBI never recorded the bill serial numbers given to DBC.

A:  Fact: Some identified TBAR bill serial numbers matched the FBI list.

B:  Fact: The FBI never recorded the bill serial numbers given to DBC.

C:  Fact: Mother Terresa never recorded the bill serial numbers given to DBC.

D:  Fact: Some identified TBAR bill serial numbers matched the FBI list, which the FBI never recorded .

E:  Fact:  You never recorded the bill serial numbers given to DBC either!

F:  Fact: Therefore anything is possible. It is possible that DBC received $250k but never received $200K of it, and none of the serial numbers match any serial numbers that Pope Francis or anyone else was not given but made a copy anyway! Any permutation is possible if you just claim it.   

This is all semantic bullshit.

Robert99 accused me of changing facts but refuses to identify them.

So, Georger resorts to his typical strawman stuff... waste of time.

Flyjack,

R99 said:

"You apparently are trying to claim that the Tina Bar money was not even part of the money given to Cooper.
And you are trying to claim that the location of Cooper's jump is nowhere close to Tina Bar or the original FBI proposed jump zone."

These statements imply two accepted facts -- and they've been around a long time: (a) the Tina Bar money was part of the money given to Cooper, and (b) the jump was in the original FBI jump zone OR close to Tina Bar (both are backed up with their own evidence).
 
You need to cool it!  It's okay to present your claims that oppose conventional thought, but you can't be belligerent and disrespectful.  I really don't like the tone you take with two of the most respected DBC researchers around.  See my other post.

MeyerLouie

Meyer,

What evidence do you have that the published FBI bill list = DBC money?

FACT: The TBAR bills matched the FBI list.

FACT: There is zero evidence aka NO FACTS to support A, B and C,

A. The MICRO list maintained by the BANK list was 100% accurate to the $250k, NONE.

B. The FBI recorded any DBC bills.

C. The FBI removed all the correct 1500 bills they should have from the MICRO list. Only 30 are confirmed removed. The other 1470 bill numbers were never recorded.

Therefore, the accuracy of the FBI published list to the DBC money is just an assumption, not a fact. Anyone who says it is fact is just elevating an assumption to fact. The assumption still may be true, it just isn't a provable fact as everyone believes.

The FBI list is 9998, two bill's short WHY is that? an error by the bank? or the FBI? any ideas? Did DBC get 10000 $20's or only 9998?


And.. my DZ area is actually only about 10 miles N of the original jump zone, but I said go south from there and probability diminishes. So, you'd run into the original drop zone.

-------------------------

FlyByNite,

This ground has already been covered by you a zillion times, nothing anybody says will change that.  I'm done here.

Meyer

Can't answer, clearly you have elevated assumptions to facts...  I thought you knew everything there was to know and forgot even more... 

maybe you can solve this then,

How did DBC bundles made irregular by the bank go from irregular to (claimed) regular at TBAR?

Must be a simple explanation..

No, I don't know everything FLYJACKass -- never ever professed that.  I'm just tired of listening to your arrogant and outlandish bullshit -- over and over again -- it's a broken record.  I believe I said my colleagues here have forgotten more than you'll ever know, and after listening to you flap you jaws, I'm convinced of that now more than ever.  How's Blevins doing?  You two gotta be buddies.
MeyerLouie

Again, no answers... just personal attacks to mask lack of knowledge and understanding.

NOTE: Ridicule is actually NOT an argument..

Once again,

How did DBC bundles made irregular by the bank go from irregular to (claimed) regular at TBAR?
..

That's total bullshit, FLYJACKoff,  it's not a lack of knowledge, and you, Newbie, assume you have lots of it.  Actually what you have is an agenda, a theory, and you are using this forum to promote your theory, your book, and your mystery suspect (I guess it's going to be mystery novel). 

Low probability means something can still happen.  Is it possible that some of the 100 bundles that Cooper got were regular?.  Was there time to irregularly bundle all 100 (which for the life of me I can't explain why they would want to do that -- as if Cooper wouldn't figure it out).  Moreover, who says they irregularly bundled all 100, or if they even wanted to?  Just because they could does not mean they did.  And if some of the bundles were regular, there is a that small chance they are the ones that ended up at Tina Bar.  Just like everyone else with a theory, you have to make some assumptions. You are no different.  Talk your mystery suspect, maybe he knows.

I already know how you are going to respond, you are as predictable as Robert Blevins.
 
MeyerLouie

My agenda is "pursuit of the truth"..

Post number 844, April 1, 2008 from Ckret...

"It is my understanding the money was wraped in rubber bands, no paper bands. the money was put together in different bill counts so it looked as if it was put together in a hurry."

Kaye with access to FBI files did his TBAR float test with bundles of 100 that supports the TBAR 100 bill count. Reports have been that TBAR bundles were 3 x 100... one was a little short due to fragmenting.


Is it possible that those 3 TBAR bundles just happened to end up in 100's, sure it is. But the probability would be negligible. So, either the process outlined by FBI, Ckret and Kaye is incorrect or an error was made somewhere and those TBAR bill's didn't come from DBC money.

There may be a simple explanation here, but yours isn't it.

Any ideas? How did "put together in different bill counts" become 3 bundles of 100 found at TBAR?

FLYJACK,
You have talked about the issues with the money and you also have a suspect.  Do those two topics intersect?  For instance, did your suspect show you money that was on the list, but insists it was not part of the Cooper cash? 

I see your issues with the money being possibly true, but it's a really like shot -- unless you're leading somewhere with this.

Mark,

There is no connection whatsoever to my suspect, any suspect or theory. TBAR money makes no impact at all. It doesn't even suggest whether DBC survived the jump or not.

I have found many inconsistencies with the TBAR money and FBI list production and I am trying to sort them out.

I am not starting with a conclusion and working back, I am working from FBI docs, Ckret and Kayes info and working forward open to where it may lead..

There are just too many inconsistencies.

Bank emergency money was loose? Bank procedures are bundles in 100's.
Bank guy rubber banded in random bundles but the remaining non DBC bundles were in regular bundles of 15 x 100's in perfect order. <<crucial for FBI to eliminate the 1500 non DBC bills.
TBAR was in regular bundles of 3 x 100's in rubber band(s).
Tina claimed "bank-style bands" and actually handled a packet. That isn't rubber bands. Google "bank bands".
Ckret and bank guy said no paper bands... only rubber bands.
FBI alpha numeric published DBC final bill list is 9998 bills, two bills short.
Bank MICRO list has disappeared. Can't check FBI 1500 bill deduction.
Bank MICRO was created and maintained by bank prior to NORJAK but no way to confirm its accuracy to the $250k emergency stash.


If anybody can clarify any of these points,, go for it..

The bands Tom gave me several years ago are now failing. I asked Tom if he had anymore and he said he wouldn't trust the one's he has either. it sounds like we need to get the same bands from Alliance vs using any other band.

on my way out the door, so I will take this up once I return from work...

Probably go to the bank and get some fresh No.14's or call Alliance for some fresh bands? If Tom says to use no.14's then I would do that.

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FLYJACK,
You have talked about the issues with the money and you also have a suspect.  Do those two topics intersect?  For instance, did your suspect show you money that was on the list, but insists it was not part of the Cooper cash? 

I see your issues with the money being possibly true, but it's a really like shot -- unless you're leading somewhere with this.

Mark,

There is no connection whatsoever to my suspect, any suspect or theory. TBAR money makes no impact at all. It doesn't even suggest whether DBC survived the jump or not.

I have found many inconsistencies with the TBAR money and FBI list production and I am trying to sort them out.

I am not starting with a conclusion and working back, I am working from FBI docs, Ckret and Kayes info and working forward open to where it may lead..

There are just too many inconsistencies.

Bank emergency money was loose? Bank procedures are bundles in 100's.
Bank guy rubber banded in random bundles but the remaining non DBC bundles were in regular bundles of 15 x 100's in perfect order. <<crucial for FBI to eliminate the 1500 non DBC bills.
TBAR was in regular bundles of 3 x 100's in rubber band(s).
Tina claimed "bank-style bands" and actually handled a packet. That isn't rubber bands. Google "bank bands".
Ckret and bank guy said no paper bands... only rubber bands.
FBI alpha numeric published DBC final bill list is 9998 bills, two bills short.
Bank MICRO list has disappeared. Can't check FBI 1500 bill deduction.
Bank MICRO was created and maintained by bank prior to NORJAK but no way to confirm its accuracy to the $250k emergency stash.


If anybody can clarify any of these points,, go for it..

No! In your case it's a total waste of our time. The basic facts are known and thoroughly discussed going clear back to 2009 - you?

You asked what Kaye would say. Kaye already posted his thoughts and we directed you to Kaye who directed everyone to the Baker report, but you refuse to even acknowledge the Baker report and its meaning ... because you have an agenda which you say is 'only searching for the truth'.

Whatever the truth is to you, I suggest you process it internally or take it up with your therapist.   

 

In summary,

you have no idea... so you make up stuff and throw out personal insults..

you can put me on "ignore" you know

Again Fly Jack, you were directed to the Baker report and all kinds of data and you rejected all of that.

If you know something special everyone has missed then write a book, call a reporter, tell Robt M Blevins, get on your knees and pray for intervention and thunder and lightening down from the gods on people's heads ....

I mean to date you havent even stated what it is you think you are seeing or saying! I mean do you think the Ingram money was placed on Tina Bar by aliens in a ufo? You have yet to even state what it is you are saying or doing? Accept looking for trouble in a forum of people who are trying to discuss the Cooper case? Well, if you came here looking for trouble I guess you have found it because just about everyone here is sick and tired of your conflict and personal attacks and wallowing in the name of  'Im only search for the truth'  .... this is laughable! 

Frankly, it appears to me you are some kind of martyr looking for a cause and a case. Which has nothing to do with the DB Cooper case or this forum? This isn't a support group for lost geniuses!

DO NOT BE TELLING PEOPLE WHAT TO THINK & DO HERE!

Good luck bud.   
     

Flyjack, we are not going to run this again two, or three pages.

Nobody has shown any proof the bundles found were $2,000, everyone assumes this, including Kaye..how do we know if bundles of $2,000 remained in the cash?

Quote

It was my understanding that only the serial numbers were random not the packaging.

If the bank did shuffle the bundles, I don't think it would be too hard to lay all 125 bundles on a table separating the 30 grand from Coopers money. they supplied a list and groups of numbers to delete making it possible they took out two serial numbers too many. the letter tells the story of them contacting Al Lee about the missing numbers. we don't have any follow up about this whether it was address or not. the lawyer also asked for the bank to check on this problem. lawyers usually don't let things go, it's possible we have something, but we don't have the full story...

Kaye goes onto explain that the FBI has more than one binder of 302's, and contained mixed information, as in one would not have all the information, and the other 302 did. we DON'T have all the information surrounding this. it does need attention, but posting over and over trying to convince the world is non productive.

I was answering Mark's legit question.

and I asked previously for confirmation about the claims about TBAR bundles being in 100's. I NEVER made the claim as fact, I was asking for FACTS to support the widely held beleifs, reports and claims. Everyone confirmed it, even Georger, were they or not? You can't have it have both ways.. No way they were if all the DBC bundles random sized.

Physically separating the money wasn't the issue, verifying the tracking of the actual DBC bill numbers is.

Absolutely clear that some of you just don't see the inconsistencies here. This could be a big deal in this case and some of you have completely missed it.

Everyone believes TBAR was in 100's and DBC bundles were random and I am the only one that see's the inconsistency. Hard to believe.

Ok, according to what Georger explained, this is new to me about the cash being in stacks with no paper bands, or rubber bands. my question is, how was the 30 grand in bundles of 2000? wasn't the 250 grand all in boxes with nothing attached, no bundles, no bands?

Ckret also states

Quote

There were multiple bundles recovered under 3 to 6 inches of sand, just at the waters edge (according to the Ingrams) no bricks of money. I found reference to four bundles, of which the rubber bands were still around them, there were 290 20's.

can I run with this as fact?

I wonder who's report Ckret is referring to? It might be Baker's report? The citations from Baker's report I have read, such as Kaye's citations of Baker at Kaye's first site, have Baker saying the amount of the Ingram find was an "estimate" and then the estimate(s) changed, starting with $4000 then working up to $6000. We know the auction company that handled Brian's bills was still finding new serial numbers (15 new ones?) years later.

This is the point I was trying to make. The number of bills and the total value of the Ingram was/is an "estimate", just as Baker said years ago in his report (seen by Carr in 2008-09?).

The agents in the Portland office in 1980 were able to match enough serial numbers that Harold provided, they knew what Harold had was Cooper money. In fact, there was a time delay. Harold left a few serial numbers and H told Harold to call back (in an hour or so). H and the guys at Portland probably had to look Harold's serial numbers up in their copy of the 'FBI Cooper Money Pamphlet' which was made a month after 11-24-71 using the bank's notated microfiche.

Baker also says, as I read him, that the order of bills in the money groups Harold turned in, matched the order of bills 'in the bank list of bills given to Cooper'. Those serial numbers were in random order. This implies that the bills Harold found were still in the same random order. The implication is, the money had not been tampered with (was in the same order) as when given to Cooper. The examination of the order of bills in the groups Harold turned in had to have been done by the Lab in Washington, not by Baker himself. And Baker refers to this when he says in his report... 'is confirmed by the lab', meaning Baker himself was basing part of his report on specific Lab reports he himself had read.  The Lab in Washington conducted a series of tests and work on the money. Lab work included 'finger printing', 'sediment and particle analysis', 'bill separation and accounting', and the like.

As to the bank's emergency fund from which the Cooper bundles were assembled and banded, it is my impression Ckret gave Tom and me the same description of that fund. You will have to check with Tom about his description of that fund and how the bank was housing it.