Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find  (Read 1364337 times)

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3165 on: May 15, 2017, 12:15:58 AM »
I realize the Tbar discussion gets into the flight path, but should only be posted if both are involved...this should be in the flight path, or clues and evidence....
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3166 on: May 15, 2017, 12:20:03 AM »
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I realize the Tbar discussion gets into the flight path, but should only be posted if both are involved...this should be in the flight path, or clues and evidence....

Look I didnt start this discussion in the Tbar thread. Flyjack did. I protested at the time to no avail.

So what do you want me to do here, vanish for the night?

OIK do what my pist what you will - Im going fishing - bye.

 
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3167 on: May 15, 2017, 12:21:56 AM »
Quote
Not sure if I should post here or elsewhere

You asked, and I told you?
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3168 on: May 15, 2017, 12:22:35 AM »
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I realize the Tbar discussion gets into the flight path, but should only be posted if both are involved...this should be in the flight path, or clues and evidence....

OK I will will r3move my post iyt took me ten minutes toi compose - maybe Fkypost can post something in name more to his likely - good luck and goodnight

post removed - good night.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2017, 12:23:19 AM by georger »
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3169 on: May 15, 2017, 12:25:30 AM »
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I don't see any conflict between Ckret and Kaye (transcript)..

The only issue that needs clearing up is the bank guy making DBC bundles irregular and TBAR regular 3x100 bundles..


The greater issue is the FBI had nothing to do with recording any of the bills or maintaining the integrity of the MICRO list vs the $250k emergency stash.

So, any error by the bank is unverifiable and would produce a bogus FBI list. We need to know when the Micro was made and a chain of custody for the $250k emergency stash. Canister/Micro is gone. WHY

One Example: A year before a $25k ransom was paid and the guy was arrested in Portland. FBI refused to admit if the money was recovered. If the bank had taken the $25k from the emergency stash then replaced it without re-photographing the entire MICRO list in order then the $25k ransom bills serial numbers would end up in the DBC list and it is then possible that the TBAR money is from that $25k ransom.

There is no evidence that the MICRO list in the canister given to the FBI maintained by the bank 100% matched the $250k emergency stash. If it didn't then the edited and published alpha numeric FBI list is wrong and would contain bill numbers never given to DBC.

.

FLYJACK,

Your attempts to change the facts in order to support your candidate of choice are obvious.

You apparently are trying to claim that the Tina Bar money was not even part of the money given to Cooper.

And you are trying to claim that the location of Cooper's jump is nowhere close to Tina Bar or the original FBI proposed jump zone.

With such "alternate facts", why don't you just claim Cooper hijacked a United 727 and bailed out near Spokane?

nonsense,
what facts have I changed?

You are just trying to protect your theory..

And you are just trying to change facts so you can introduce your "Cooper candidate".

No,

You fail to identify the facts that you claim I have changed.
and
This has zero impact on any suspect and whether they died in the jump or survived.


Fact: Some identified TBAR bill serial numbers matched the FBI list.

Fact: The FBI never recorded the bill serial numbers given to DBC.

A:  Fact: Some identified TBAR bill serial numbers matched the FBI list.

B:  Fact: The FBI never recorded the bill serial numbers given to DBC.

C:  Fact: Mother Terresa never recorded the bill serial numbers given to DBC.

D:  Fact: Some identified TBAR bill serial numbers matched the FBI list, which the FBI never recorded .

E:  Fact:  You never recorded the bill serial numbers given to DBC either!

F:  Fact: Therefore anything is possible. It is possible that DBC received $250k but never received $200K of it, and none of the serial numbers match any serial numbers that Pope Francis or anyone else was not given but made a copy anyway! Any permutation is possible if you just claim it.   

This is all semantic bullshit.

Robert99 accused me of changing facts but refuses to identify them.

So, Georger resorts to his typical strawman stuff... waste of time.

Flyjack,

R99 said:

"You apparently are trying to claim that the Tina Bar money was not even part of the money given to Cooper.
And you are trying to claim that the location of Cooper's jump is nowhere close to Tina Bar or the original FBI proposed jump zone."

These statements imply two accepted facts -- and they've been around a long time: (a) the Tina Bar money was part of the money given to Cooper, and (b) the jump was in the original FBI jump zone OR close to Tina Bar (both are backed up with their own evidence).
 
You need to cool it!  It's okay to present your claims that oppose conventional thought, but you can't be belligerent and disrespectful.  I really don't like the tone you take with two of the most respected DBC researchers around.  See my other post.

MeyerLouie

Meyer,

What evidence do you have that the published FBI bill list = DBC money?

FACT: The TBAR bills matched the FBI list.

FACT: There is zero evidence aka NO FACTS to support A, B and C,

A. The MICRO list maintained by the BANK list was 100% accurate to the $250k, NONE.

B. The FBI recorded any DBC bills.

C. The FBI removed all the correct 1500 bills they should have from the MICRO list. Only 30 are confirmed removed. The other 1470 bill numbers were never recorded.

Therefore, the accuracy of the FBI published list to the DBC money is just an assumption, not a fact. Anyone who says it is fact is just elevating an assumption to fact. The assumption still may be true, it just isn't a provable fact as everyone believes.

The FBI list is 9998, two bill's short WHY is that? an error by the bank? or the FBI? any ideas? Did DBC get 10000 $20's or only 9998?


And.. my DZ area is actually only about 10 miles N of the original jump zone, but I said go south from there and probability diminishes. So, you'd run into the original drop zone.

 

Offline 377

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3170 on: May 15, 2017, 01:11:18 PM »
9998 bills? What a great scam one could pull if he had two real Cooper twenties purloined before the money was taken to the plane.

Some guys tried it with a couple of fake Cooper twenties and, as I recall, solicited a $30,000 advance from Newsweek before they were crushed by the Vortex forces.

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Bill Cook from Newsweek's SF bureau talked to Bill Mitchell and showed him pics:

Bill Cook Remembers:
   "On Friday of that fateful week, I flew to Seattle, arriving late in the afternoon. In my calls I reached a student at the University of Oregon who had sat next to Cooper on the famous flight. I told him I was on a serious deadline. Could I come to Eugene and talk to him after midnight? He said fine. When I called New York, Fleming answered the phone.
 I jumped into my rental car and raced 300 miles down Interstate 5 to Eugene at the fastest clip I dared. I arrived shortly after midnight and awakened the student. He turned out to have been an excellent observer. He described the real D. B. Cooper in detail, down to the color of his socks. He said Fleming's photo looked nothing like the man he'd seen on the plane. "


377

« Last Edit: May 15, 2017, 01:19:32 PM by 377 »
 

MeyerLouie

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3171 on: May 15, 2017, 02:56:02 PM »
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I don't see any conflict between Ckret and Kaye (transcript)..

The only issue that needs clearing up is the bank guy making DBC bundles irregular and TBAR regular 3x100 bundles..


The greater issue is the FBI had nothing to do with recording any of the bills or maintaining the integrity of the MICRO list vs the $250k emergency stash.

So, any error by the bank is unverifiable and would produce a bogus FBI list. We need to know when the Micro was made and a chain of custody for the $250k emergency stash. Canister/Micro is gone. WHY

One Example: A year before a $25k ransom was paid and the guy was arrested in Portland. FBI refused to admit if the money was recovered. If the bank had taken the $25k from the emergency stash then replaced it without re-photographing the entire MICRO list in order then the $25k ransom bills serial numbers would end up in the DBC list and it is then possible that the TBAR money is from that $25k ransom.

There is no evidence that the MICRO list in the canister given to the FBI maintained by the bank 100% matched the $250k emergency stash. If it didn't then the edited and published alpha numeric FBI list is wrong and would contain bill numbers never given to DBC.

.

FLYJACK,

Your attempts to change the facts in order to support your candidate of choice are obvious.

You apparently are trying to claim that the Tina Bar money was not even part of the money given to Cooper.

And you are trying to claim that the location of Cooper's jump is nowhere close to Tina Bar or the original FBI proposed jump zone.

With such "alternate facts", why don't you just claim Cooper hijacked a United 727 and bailed out near Spokane?

nonsense,
what facts have I changed?

You are just trying to protect your theory..

And you are just trying to change facts so you can introduce your "Cooper candidate".

No,

You fail to identify the facts that you claim I have changed.
and
This has zero impact on any suspect and whether they died in the jump or survived.


Fact: Some identified TBAR bill serial numbers matched the FBI list.

Fact: The FBI never recorded the bill serial numbers given to DBC.

A:  Fact: Some identified TBAR bill serial numbers matched the FBI list.

B:  Fact: The FBI never recorded the bill serial numbers given to DBC.

C:  Fact: Mother Terresa never recorded the bill serial numbers given to DBC.

D:  Fact: Some identified TBAR bill serial numbers matched the FBI list, which the FBI never recorded .

E:  Fact:  You never recorded the bill serial numbers given to DBC either!

F:  Fact: Therefore anything is possible. It is possible that DBC received $250k but never received $200K of it, and none of the serial numbers match any serial numbers that Pope Francis or anyone else was not given but made a copy anyway! Any permutation is possible if you just claim it.   

This is all semantic bullshit.

Robert99 accused me of changing facts but refuses to identify them.

So, Georger resorts to his typical strawman stuff... waste of time.

Flyjack,

R99 said:

"You apparently are trying to claim that the Tina Bar money was not even part of the money given to Cooper.
And you are trying to claim that the location of Cooper's jump is nowhere close to Tina Bar or the original FBI proposed jump zone."

These statements imply two accepted facts -- and they've been around a long time: (a) the Tina Bar money was part of the money given to Cooper, and (b) the jump was in the original FBI jump zone OR close to Tina Bar (both are backed up with their own evidence).
 
You need to cool it!  It's okay to present your claims that oppose conventional thought, but you can't be belligerent and disrespectful.  I really don't like the tone you take with two of the most respected DBC researchers around.  See my other post.

MeyerLouie

Meyer,

What evidence do you have that the published FBI bill list = DBC money?

FACT: The TBAR bills matched the FBI list.

FACT: There is zero evidence aka NO FACTS to support A, B and C,

A. The MICRO list maintained by the BANK list was 100% accurate to the $250k, NONE.

B. The FBI recorded any DBC bills.

C. The FBI removed all the correct 1500 bills they should have from the MICRO list. Only 30 are confirmed removed. The other 1470 bill numbers were never recorded.

Therefore, the accuracy of the FBI published list to the DBC money is just an assumption, not a fact. Anyone who says it is fact is just elevating an assumption to fact. The assumption still may be true, it just isn't a provable fact as everyone believes.

The FBI list is 9998, two bill's short WHY is that? an error by the bank? or the FBI? any ideas? Did DBC get 10000 $20's or only 9998?


And.. my DZ area is actually only about 10 miles N of the original jump zone, but I said go south from there and probability diminishes. So, you'd run into the original drop zone.


-------------------------

FlyByNite,

This ground has already been covered by you a zillion times, nothing anybody says will change that.  I'm done here.

Meyer
« Last Edit: May 15, 2017, 03:17:12 PM by Shutter »
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3172 on: May 15, 2017, 07:18:55 PM »
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I don't see any conflict between Ckret and Kaye (transcript)..

The only issue that needs clearing up is the bank guy making DBC bundles irregular and TBAR regular 3x100 bundles..


The greater issue is the FBI had nothing to do with recording any of the bills or maintaining the integrity of the MICRO list vs the $250k emergency stash.

So, any error by the bank is unverifiable and would produce a bogus FBI list. We need to know when the Micro was made and a chain of custody for the $250k emergency stash. Canister/Micro is gone. WHY

One Example: A year before a $25k ransom was paid and the guy was arrested in Portland. FBI refused to admit if the money was recovered. If the bank had taken the $25k from the emergency stash then replaced it without re-photographing the entire MICRO list in order then the $25k ransom bills serial numbers would end up in the DBC list and it is then possible that the TBAR money is from that $25k ransom.

There is no evidence that the MICRO list in the canister given to the FBI maintained by the bank 100% matched the $250k emergency stash. If it didn't then the edited and published alpha numeric FBI list is wrong and would contain bill numbers never given to DBC.

.

FLYJACK,

Your attempts to change the facts in order to support your candidate of choice are obvious.

You apparently are trying to claim that the Tina Bar money was not even part of the money given to Cooper.

And you are trying to claim that the location of Cooper's jump is nowhere close to Tina Bar or the original FBI proposed jump zone.

With such "alternate facts", why don't you just claim Cooper hijacked a United 727 and bailed out near Spokane?

nonsense,
what facts have I changed?

You are just trying to protect your theory..

And you are just trying to change facts so you can introduce your "Cooper candidate".

No,

You fail to identify the facts that you claim I have changed.
and
This has zero impact on any suspect and whether they died in the jump or survived.


Fact: Some identified TBAR bill serial numbers matched the FBI list.

Fact: The FBI never recorded the bill serial numbers given to DBC.

A:  Fact: Some identified TBAR bill serial numbers matched the FBI list.

B:  Fact: The FBI never recorded the bill serial numbers given to DBC.

C:  Fact: Mother Terresa never recorded the bill serial numbers given to DBC.

D:  Fact: Some identified TBAR bill serial numbers matched the FBI list, which the FBI never recorded .

E:  Fact:  You never recorded the bill serial numbers given to DBC either!

F:  Fact: Therefore anything is possible. It is possible that DBC received $250k but never received $200K of it, and none of the serial numbers match any serial numbers that Pope Francis or anyone else was not given but made a copy anyway! Any permutation is possible if you just claim it.   

This is all semantic bullshit.

Robert99 accused me of changing facts but refuses to identify them.

So, Georger resorts to his typical strawman stuff... waste of time.

Flyjack,

R99 said:

"You apparently are trying to claim that the Tina Bar money was not even part of the money given to Cooper.
And you are trying to claim that the location of Cooper's jump is nowhere close to Tina Bar or the original FBI proposed jump zone."

These statements imply two accepted facts -- and they've been around a long time: (a) the Tina Bar money was part of the money given to Cooper, and (b) the jump was in the original FBI jump zone OR close to Tina Bar (both are backed up with their own evidence).
 
You need to cool it!  It's okay to present your claims that oppose conventional thought, but you can't be belligerent and disrespectful.  I really don't like the tone you take with two of the most respected DBC researchers around.  See my other post.

MeyerLouie

Meyer,

What evidence do you have that the published FBI bill list = DBC money?

FACT: The TBAR bills matched the FBI list.

FACT: There is zero evidence aka NO FACTS to support A, B and C,

A. The MICRO list maintained by the BANK list was 100% accurate to the $250k, NONE.

B. The FBI recorded any DBC bills.

C. The FBI removed all the correct 1500 bills they should have from the MICRO list. Only 30 are confirmed removed. The other 1470 bill numbers were never recorded.

Therefore, the accuracy of the FBI published list to the DBC money is just an assumption, not a fact. Anyone who says it is fact is just elevating an assumption to fact. The assumption still may be true, it just isn't a provable fact as everyone believes.

The FBI list is 9998, two bill's short WHY is that? an error by the bank? or the FBI? any ideas? Did DBC get 10000 $20's or only 9998?


And.. my DZ area is actually only about 10 miles N of the original jump zone, but I said go south from there and probability diminishes. So, you'd run into the original drop zone.


-------------------------

FlyByNite,

This ground has already been covered by you a zillion times, nothing anybody says will change that.  I'm done here.

Meyer

Can't answer, clearly you have elevated assumptions to facts...  I thought you knew everything there was to know and forgot even more... 

maybe you can solve this then,

How did DBC bundles made irregular by the bank go from irregular to (claimed) regular at TBAR?

Must be a simple explanation..

« Last Edit: May 15, 2017, 07:40:03 PM by FLYJACK »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3173 on: May 15, 2017, 08:10:22 PM »
How do we know that each bundle was $2,000 that were found?
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3174 on: May 16, 2017, 12:36:51 AM »
Flyjack, I contacted Tom Kaye regarding the issue with the money. sadly, he's heading out of town and can't address the issue until he looks into the "transcripts". I showed him the documents, and the comments made by agent Carr. this also includes the serial number issue...his reply without looking into the files was that he was under the impression that only the serial numbers were random, and not the packaging...
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3175 on: May 16, 2017, 04:48:02 AM »
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Flyjack, I contacted Tom Kaye regarding the issue with the money. sadly, he's heading out of town and can't address the issue until he looks into the "transcripts". I showed him the documents, and the comments made by agent Carr. this also includes the serial number issue...his reply without looking into the files was that he was under the impression that only the serial numbers were random, and not the packaging...

It wont matter what Kaye says. I dont think FJack is going to give up his claim of there being a difference between the order of the bills sent by the bank vs. the order of the bills when the Ingram find was sitting in the ground at Tina Bar. Regular vs irregular, whatever - FJack means by that on any given day! It's an empty claim because there is no way to test it, in any event.

One thing Tom Kaye must say because he cites it on his website, is what Wm Baker says in his report. Im not going to quote it - go to Tom's site or to DZ to find it if you are interested. But, I am 99% sure of the results no matter what Tom says here or elsewhere. That is almost a given.

Keep in mind (or dismiss it again) when the Ingram tried to separate, wash, and clean the money (even with Clorox at one point), they screwed up the order of some of the bills right there, vs the order the bills were in, in the ground. Moreover since the bundles were irregular in count and random in order as Baker points out, the total value of what the Ingrams had found varied in the original estimate, starting at $4000 then going up as bills were separated and counted to approx $6000. So any comparison between order in the Ingram bundles vs. the bank bundled bills could only be an "estimate", and that is precisely how Baker characterizes that comparison - he uses the word "estimate". When the FBI says the Ingram find was in the same order as when given to Cooper, both internally and in sequence of bundles, that is only an estimate because the Ingrams did not deliver their find to the FBI in the same condition and order as they found it in the ground. I am sure FJack will dispute that!  :))

Let's see what Tom says about that.  O0 :))





 

« Last Edit: May 16, 2017, 05:14:24 AM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3176 on: May 16, 2017, 05:47:32 AM »
I didn't think he was going to respond to my second email since he was leaving town, but he replied.

"So I looked through our docs and one of them matches Gray’s document. In another it says “made up entirely of random, used 20 dollar bills”. Also states “ the entire list of the ransom bills had previously been microfilmed by the Seattle-First National Bank and has now been incorporated in a 34 page pamphlet of ransom bills”.  “The film canister which was handed to Captain Bennett contained a microfilm upon which was recorded the serial numbers of all the bills which were given to the hijacker….”
 
This is the only info we have pertinent to the questions at hand. Remember, there is more than one 302 so the others could have slightly different info. You can share on the forum."
 
Tom
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3177 on: May 16, 2017, 06:20:48 AM »
I think the video on the beach at one point as well as a newspaper article claim $3,000 were found?

My question here and to Kaye was how do we know the bundles were $2,000 each that were found on the beach. he didn't reply to that, or the missing serial numbers, so that's still in question. the money from Tina bar is on the list, so it's safe to say that they had the required serial numbers needed to make a case against Cooper.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2017, 06:21:03 AM by Shutter »
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3178 on: May 16, 2017, 10:23:11 AM »
Let's clear up this point, (random order vs physical sequence) so we are all on the same page on this.. the bill serial numbers were always random.


The $250k emergency stash at the bank was stored in regular bundles of 100 in random bill serial number order. ($20x100 = $2000's) ($20k was in 10's so ignored later)

The Bank maintained a photo'd micro of all $250k of bill's in physical sequence. IMPORTANT

The bank was ordered by the FBI to make $200k of the $20 bundles irregular sized. ($500's and $1000's) this would re-order the DBC physical sequence vs the MICRO physical sequence.

The bank noted the top and bottom serial number of the 15 bundles of $20's left behind, they were regular in $20x100 = $2000 per bundle.

The bank only recorded 30 (2 sets of 15) of the 1500 bills left behind NOT given to DBC. (regular bundles $20x100 = $2000)

Actual DBC bill's were NEVER recorded.

The bank sent the $200k irregular bundles to the plane for DBC.

The FBI NEVER recorded any bill numbers.

The bank gave the FBI the MICRO for all bill's in the $250k recorded in physical order prior to NORJAK.

The bank gave the FBI the first/last bill number's (30 serial numbers total) for each of the 15 bundles left behind.

The FBI marked those 2 numbers removed them and all 98 in between from the MICRO list. (they never had the 98 numbers in between)

The FBI created and published a DBC bill list re-ordered in alpha numeric with 9998 bills on it. (error somewhere)

The TBAR money was found in 3 bundles original est. was $3000 but revised to the $5800, regular bundles of $20x100 = $2000.

The TBAR bill numbers match the FBI list.

New bill serial numbers were identified and matched, not new bill's found.



FACT: TBAR bill serial numbers matched the edited/published FBI list of 9998 bill's


The DBC bundles were made irregular size (not 100/bundle) but the the 3x TBAR bundles were regular sized 100/bundle = $2000. <<This is inconsistent

The 15 bundles of $20 not used for DBC but on the MICRO given to FBI were in regular bundles of 100 = $2000.

IMPORTANT: The accuracy of FBI list to DBC money requires:
(1) the MICRO maintained by the bank to be 100% accurate to the $250k emergency stash and
(2) the accuracy of FBI deducting 1500 bill's for which only 30 were recorded by the bank.
(3) Bank guy not mixing up the DBC bundles with non DBC 30 recorded numbers during cash prep.

The DBC bill's were not pro-actively recorded but instead the list was created by assumption and deduction. The FBI published bill list is unverifiable. We have assumed its accuracy. The list is 9998 bill's so there is at least an error somewhere between the bank original MICRO and the FBI.

Kaye tried to find the MICRO but it is gone. It would confirm the FBI 1500 bill deduction but not an error in the bank's MICRO matching the $250k emergency stash 100%.

QUESTION: Who created the bank MICRO when was it created and how was it maintained vs the $250k emergency stash. If any ransom was previously paid the entire MICRO list had to be completely redone. The integrity of the FBI DBC bill list requires a 100% chain of validation for that MICRO and $250k emergency stash.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2017, 11:42:58 AM by FLYJACK »
 

Offline Kermit

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3179 on: May 16, 2017, 11:41:23 AM »
I'm 100 % convinced that the money found on Tina Bar is indeed part of Cooper's loot so I have little interest in where Flyjack is going with all this ! I'd like to call into attention a few facts that I'm aware of because I'm a local who grew up in this area since 1946 when my family moved here from Minnesota.