You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Tom Kaye August 29, 2013

Quote

So you don't waste any more time on this. Directly from the FBI documents:
"Ransom money in the amount $200,000 was made up entirely of used, random 20 dollar bills. It was obtained from the Seattle-First National Bank, Main Office, and was part of a ransom package of 250,000, which had been maintained by the bank for such emergencies."

"The entire list of the ransom bills had previously been microfilmed by the Seattle-First National Bank, and has now been incorporated in a 34 page pamphlet of ransom bills."

We long ago tried to find the original microfilm so it would show the order of the bills in the bundles. No luck even with Larry Carr helping. In my opinion the available list has no relation to the order of the bundles.

Tom

Quote

More info:

There was a film canister with the film inside that was given to the FBI days after the event. The FBI had to determine which of the bills remained and which were given to Cooper. The canister contained the list of serial numbers in order PLUS a list of the start and stop serial numbers for each bundle. At the end of the film was a list of the start and stop numbers for each bundle that was left in the bank. There were 100 bills exactly per bundle.

The FBI never did any sorting of the bills what so ever from the transcripts. The bank people brought the money to Sea-Tac where the FBI then took it on the plane.

Tom

Ok before this bs goes any further - who are we to believe: Tom Kaye or the FBI agent Larry Carr? Carr says in 2008:

Ckret
Jan 30, 2008, 6:44 PM
Post #1572 of 1694 (818 views)
Registered: Sep 7, 2007
Posts: 522         Re: [ryoder] Recovered Ransom [In reply to]
 
The money was provided by Seafirst bank which is now Bank of America. The money had been earmarked for situations such as these and was always on hand. It had been photographed and serial numbers recorded by their security so the FBI did none of this.

The money was then transported by SeaFirst bank security to a Seattle police detective who then drove it to the airport and handed it over to NWA.  The money was bundled in various counts so that no bundle was the same. Each bundle was secured by rubber band and different counts so that it appeared the money was hastily gathered


Kaye got his info from FBI files?  Carr got his info from FBI files? Who is correct? Kaye or Carr?

Note the dates. Kaye 2013. Carr 2008. These dates are crucial. Because it was about 2013 when a NEW forensic team was organised due to the fact Kaye had not seen any diatoms in his bills or conducted other tests people felt were crucial - we needed to get more data on that and the money samples generally.

So, people at UW and the Ames Lab, Himmelsbach, Thomas, the Ingrams, Carr, and several others were contacted in order to arrange tests using NEW FBI Cooper money samples and just prior to the samples being shipped 'somebody' (I dont recall who) raised this old nonsense again about 'were the Ingram bills wrapped in rubber bands vs paper bank tapes'! To make a long story short, we needed to get that pesky detail settled once and for all. I mean we have people like Kaye running around saying one thing and Carr etal running around saying another and moi and a bunch of real researchers are scheduled to start and we needed to know what the fuck we were doing with some basic factual information'!  Real world researchers are kind of strange that way - they like facts vs endless trailer loads of bullshit!

So, as stated before in a million other places since 2013, I let Larry Carr know we absolutely had to get this matter of rubber vs paper bands settled. We had the name of the guy at the bank who actually wrapped the bundles so we set out to contact him; and Larry did. The gentleman told Larry he had used "rubber" bands not paper bands, and he said (guess what):   "The money was bundled in various counts so that no bundle was the same. Each bundle was secured by rubber bands and in different counts so that it appeared the money was hastily gathered. The FBI guy ordered us to do it that way."

But Kaye turns around and comes out with his version and I never knew why! So who are you going to believe? Quite frankly at this point in 2017 I dont care who or what you believe. 

There it is in black and white. Kaye keeps referring to the Transcript, whatever that is! Kaye calls every document and book in the Cooper Library "The Transcript"! Larry and I and others were there personally in 2013 with the guy from the bank. So I guess you believe Tom Kaye and "The Transcript" whatever that is, or you believe the guys from the bank, Larry, etc! But most importantly, so far as I know that basic info obtained in 2013 has never been replaced or amended except by the fossil and paint ball guy: Tom Kaye.

I mean from my point of view, either the bundles were placed in irregular counts, or they were! And I wish you  COOPER EXPURTS would get this settled for the rest of us once and for all! While you are also moving the Landing Zone to Nome Alaska or Cairo, Egypt because somebody says he knows what Cooper's "intentions" were?




 

guys, there is NO conflict between Kaye and Ckret..


A. bank guy pulls $200k from bag of $250k, makes regular bundles of 100 into irregular bundles. (may combine new and old rubber bands here). Done in less than 30 minutes.

B. bank guy records bill serial numbers of top and bottom bill for the remaining 15 bundles of $20's (didn't record the other 1470 $20 bills)

C. bank sends $200k to plane (FBI never sorts it or records them)

D. bank sends FBI canister of MICRO with bills in physical sequence with 30 bill numbers recorded.

E. FBI takes 15 sets of bill numbers from Micro list and eliminated the 98 bills in between each set.

F. FBI publishes an edited and resorted bill list in alpha numeric. Original sequential list gone.

G. 3 TBAR bundles found in regular bundles of 100.


We don't know if the MICRO maintained by the bank 100% matched the $250k stash.
We don't know if E was done correctly by FBI because nobody recorded all 1500 bills, only the 30 markers. The 30 markers were removed.

We don't know how the DBC $200k bundles made irregular became regular on TBAR.<< this needs to be settled.


If the 1500 bill elimination wasn't all done correctly by FBI there is a logical path for the TBAR bills to be from the unknown 1470 numbers that needed removal.

If the bank maintained MICRO didn't match the bank's $250k emergency stash 100% then the TBAR bills may have come from another ransom payout.

Interesting comments here....

No room for Mr. Peterson in that version. This is the version we used to have prior to 'revisions'.

 

You guys can certainly argue about my personal comments all you want. BUT, notice the quotes on my comments from the "transcript". That means those were direct quotes from the FBI files. So those are the direct facts, I had nothing to do with them personally.

Tom Kaye

What is the Transcript?  All the FBI files you examined in Seattle or just one?

At this point Im not even sure what comments are the "comments" (quoted from FBI files) you are talking about, but that's not your fault, but the fault of so many different people posting your "comments" ...

When I post your comments generic I try to post a date and place your comments I am posting comes from. We have too much of people saying, Tom said this, Tom said that, and it doesn't just apply to you. Again none of that is your fault or responsibility, frankly. If I were in your shoes I would be dizzy at this point trying to keep track of it all!

What's your current position based on reading FBI files or other sources:  the bundles given Cooper were all 100 bills each or each bundle a different count, as the bank guy made the bundles  (I guess on instructions of the FBI)?



 

Veracity of Tom Kaye and Larry Carr

I consider both men to be important sources of information on Norjak, and their reputations should not be impugned.

I have interviewed both of them at length, and both have made significant contributions to this investigation. Although Larry's enormous commitment of time and energy at the DZ is a thing of the past, Tom continues to offer sound input. Further, I have found him to be singular in his availability and patience to answer/clarify his comments.

One proviso: Carr knowledge of the case is narrow; ie: he continues to believe that Earl Cossey owned the chute that Cooper wore despite all that has been discovered about that issue since Larry left the case in 2010.

Thanks for the update!

What is the "Transcript" as Tom uses the term?  All the FBI files Tom examined in Seattle or just one file of some kind, where? Tom looked at a lot of files and documents. Are they all the "Transcript" ?

If you could clear up that one central point for us that would be of inestimable value.

I must say, your sudden change of heart and confidence in the FBI is surprising and unexpected. Did you have an epiphany of some kind? A vision?

To answer Georger's question. ALL the documentation for the Cooper case is contained in several books the FBI calls the "302's" which i guess they call all such books. The books appear to be duplicates but we also found some info was missing from one while available in another. We did go through all of them. All the information in these books we collectively call "the transcripts" because most of them are information distilled from the time of the investigation into a report. There is some original data mixed in with all of it.  We did see that in general, not finding something means it did not get reported, just things they learned in the investigation seemed to end up in the 302's.  We have photographs of much of the 302's but our agreement with the FBI is to not make them available. We are allowed however to quote certain things directly from the 302's as seen on our website. It seems that Gray may have a complete set of 302 images and will be releasing them as time goes on.

So everything we say and Ckret said, is coming from the same source. On a one to ten scale we value the transcript info at 10 and current day testimony from people a 1. So we pretty much take the transcripts at face value. It is very convenient for everyone to accept or reject the transcript info to make their case. We don't do that and that is why we don't have a suspect. We modify the value of the transcript info if new facts emerge that change things like the info on the Amboy chute. So you are welcome to debate this all you want but please keep the transcript info separate from personal insights from me or my team. It should all be clear in the footnotes on our website, Shutter can email me if there are questions.

Thanks,

Tom Kaye

I don't see any conflict between Ckret and Kaye (transcript)..

The only issue that needs clearing up is the bank guy making DBC bundles irregular and TBAR regular 3x100 bundles..


The greater issue is the FBI had nothing to do with recording any of the bills or maintaining the integrity of the MICRO list vs the $250k emergency stash.

So, any error by the bank is unverifiable and would produce a bogus FBI list. We need to know when the Micro was made and a chain of custody for the $250k emergency stash. Canister/Micro is gone. WHY

One Example: A year before a $25k ransom was paid and the guy was arrested in Portland. FBI refused to admit if the money was recovered. If the bank had taken the $25k from the emergency stash then replaced it without re-photographing the entire MICRO list in order then the $25k ransom bills serial numbers would end up in the DBC list and it is then possible that the TBAR money is from that $25k ransom.

There is no evidence that the MICRO list in the canister given to the FBI maintained by the bank 100% matched the $250k emergency stash. If it didn't then the edited and published alpha numeric FBI list is wrong and would contain bill numbers never given to DBC.

.

FLYJACK,

Your attempts to change the facts in order to support your candidate of choice are obvious.

You apparently are trying to claim that the Tina Bar money was not even part of the money given to Cooper.

And you are trying to claim that the location of Cooper's jump is nowhere close to Tina Bar or the original FBI proposed jump zone.

With such "alternate facts", why don't you just claim Cooper hijacked a United 727 and bailed out near Spokane? 

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

I don't see any conflict between Ckret and Kaye (transcript)..

The only issue that needs clearing up is the bank guy making DBC bundles irregular and TBAR regular 3x100 bundles..


The greater issue is the FBI had nothing to do with recording any of the bills or maintaining the integrity of the MICRO list vs the $250k emergency stash.

So, any error by the bank is unverifiable and would produce a bogus FBI list. We need to know when the Micro was made and a chain of custody for the $250k emergency stash. Canister/Micro is gone. WHY

One Example: A year before a $25k ransom was paid and the guy was arrested in Portland. FBI refused to admit if the money was recovered. If the bank had taken the $25k from the emergency stash then replaced it without re-photographing the entire MICRO list in order then the $25k ransom bills serial numbers would end up in the DBC list and it is then possible that the TBAR money is from that $25k ransom.

There is no evidence that the MICRO list in the canister given to the FBI maintained by the bank 100% matched the $250k emergency stash. If it didn't then the edited and published alpha numeric FBI list is wrong and would contain bill numbers never given to DBC.

.

FLYJACK,

Your attempts to change the facts in order to support your candidate of choice are obvious.

You apparently are trying to claim that the Tina Bar money was not even part of the money given to Cooper.

And you are trying to claim that the location of Cooper's jump is nowhere close to Tina Bar or the original FBI proposed jump zone.

With such "alternate facts", why don't you just claim Cooper hijacked a United 727 and bailed out near Spokane?

nonsense,
what facts have I changed?

You are just trying to protect your theory..

And you are just trying to change facts so you can introduce your "Cooper candidate".