Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find  (Read 1364226 times)

Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3045 on: May 11, 2017, 01:09:18 AM »
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It shows they took to many bills out. they were $40 short of 200k

Yes, but it supports the questionable process and demonstrates room for error. It confirms at least two errors were made editing the micro list (deducting the left behind bundle #'s). THAT is significant. That error was only caught because it was 2 bills short. There is no way to catch the wrong bill numbers being deducted.

QUESTIONED THE ACCURACY OF DEDUCTING THE BILL'S LEFT BEHIND in the bag.

There was ONLY one list on micro for $250k made prior to NORJAK, regular bundles and in order.

15 bundes of $20's were left behind (non-DBC money), they needed to be deducted from the micro list.

They made the DBC bundles irregular and out of order.. 

The TBAR bundles were regular and in order.  <<< that was checked against the pre NORJAK micro (which was to have 1500 bills removed)


There is a "possibility" that the TBAR bundles came from the 15 regular and sequential bundles left behind and were not given to DBC which were irregular and mixed sequence.

FLYJACK,

Whether you understand it or not, your last sentence above suggests that the Tina Bar money did not come from Cooper.  So just exactly how did it get from the Bank in Seattle to Tina Bar? ???

I do understand and have no idea other than hypotheticals. One would be that those bundles were paid out to another ransom event and somehow made it to TBAR.

FLYJACK,

Do you offer that as a serious answer? :o When do you expect to return from your travels to somewhere beyond Pluto? ???

What part of "no idea" do you fail to understand?

Why don't you start focusing on facts rather than hypotheticals and things you have "no idea" about? :(
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3046 on: May 11, 2017, 01:28:52 AM »
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It shows they took to many bills out. they were $40 short of 200k

Yes, but it supports the questionable process and demonstrates room for error. It confirms at least two errors were made editing the micro list (deducting the left behind bundle #'s). THAT is significant. That error was only caught because it was 2 bills short. There is no way to catch the wrong bill numbers being deducted.

QUESTIONED THE ACCURACY OF DEDUCTING THE BILL'S LEFT BEHIND in the bag.

There was ONLY one list on micro for $250k made prior to NORJAK, regular bundles and in order.

15 bundes of $20's were left behind (non-DBC money), they needed to be deducted from the micro list.

They made the DBC bundles irregular and out of order.. 

The TBAR bundles were regular and in order.  <<< that was checked against the pre NORJAK micro (which was to have 1500 bills removed)


There is a "possibility" that the TBAR bundles came from the 15 regular and sequential bundles left behind and were not given to DBC which were irregular and mixed sequence.

FLYJACK,

Whether you understand it or not, your last sentence above suggests that the Tina Bar money did not come from Cooper.  So just exactly how did it get from the Bank in Seattle to Tina Bar? ???

I do understand and have no idea other than hypotheticals. One would be that those bundles were paid out to another ransom event and somehow made it to TBAR.

FLYJACK,

Do you offer that as a serious answer? :o When do you expect to return from your travels to somewhere beyond Pluto? ???

What part of "no idea" do you fail to understand?

Why don't you start focusing on facts rather than hypotheticals and things you have "no idea" about? :(

I did, the facts raise doubts about the establishment and integrity of the FBI Cooper bill list and the TBAR money. You ask, how then would it get from the bank to TBAR. I said "no idea" other than hypotheticals.

Then you applied a straw-man attacking me for using hypotheticals, and you intentionally ignored the entire detailed discussion about the potential bill list error just to undermine my cred.

Can you explain why the DBC bundles were irregular $500's and $1000's and re-ordered but the TBAR bundles were regular bundles of 100's = $2000/bundle and in order?

.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2017, 01:39:34 AM by FLYJACK »
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3047 on: May 11, 2017, 02:08:39 AM »
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And I'm a math guy....,what a rookie mistake!  Unbelievable.  Guess I won't be bugging you anymore, FLYJACK.  You caught me making my biggest blunder of all time here.  In any event, I do read and study your posts carefully, and I will continue to do so. 

But, let me ask the same question, how feasible is it, in the time allotted, for the bank guy to make 100 bundles irregular?  Same argument, just not so way out there.....Meyer

Forget about it, we all make dumb mistakes..

According to Georger the bank was asked by the FBI to make the bundles irregular, I assume one guy but maybe more than one.

but estimate 1 guy maybe 20 seconds per 1 bundle (generous), 3 bundles per minute = 33 minutes straight time, quicker maybe 20-25 minutes.

Not hard, if he happened to miss a few the probability of 3 regular bundles making it together to TBAR is very low.

I doubt he missed any though since he was ordered by the FBI..

Just coming in been busy. First a Ckret post:

Ckret
Apr 19, 2008, 8:54 AM
Post #1468 of 58140 (58777 views)
          Re: [Orange1] Back to Basics [In reply to]
 
________________________________________
I found the guy who packed the money and put it in the bag in 1971. He is going to find the best example of the bag he can and give it to me. Once I have it I will post it for all.

Sluggo, I haven't forgotten you, just slammed right now.


Shutter says in a PM to me:

John Trandall, head of security for the bank...he also gave them a list of the one's not to count as ransom money...

It's in the post Flyjack has, and it's at the end of the files from Gray....


So it may be John Trandall who Ckret found. Trandall made the irregular count bundles given to Cooper at FBI request so 'it would look like the money was put together in haste'. Why that would matter is beyond me. And, the serial numbers in Trandall's packets were presumably in the same order as they are on the bank's master Recordak of their $250k. I believe Trandall is now deceased.

*Again, if the Ingram serial numbers match the numbers on the FBI list created by Trandall, and do not match serial numbers in the $50k bills returned to SeaFirst (not used in the Cooper case), then Ingram bills must be part of the $200k given to Cooper. And it is irrelevant what happened to the $50k not used in the Cooper case.

Here is a Recordak photo showing serial numbers and Trandall's red ink marks where he marked off the beginning and ending serial numbers of each bundle he made given to Cooper - these marks (so far as I know) where the basis for the FBI's list of Cooper serial numbers.

That is the story I have.
     
« Last Edit: May 11, 2017, 05:09:27 AM by georger »
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3048 on: May 11, 2017, 02:25:31 AM »
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It shows they took to many bills out. they were $40 short of 200k

Yes, but it supports the questionable process and demonstrates room for error. It confirms at least two errors were made editing the micro list (deducting the left behind bundle #'s). THAT is significant. That error was only caught because it was 2 bills short. There is no way to catch the wrong bill numbers being deducted.

QUESTIONED THE ACCURACY OF DEDUCTING THE BILL'S LEFT BEHIND in the bag.

There was ONLY one list on micro for $250k made prior to NORJAK, regular bundles and in order.

15 bundes of $20's were left behind (non-DBC money), they needed to be deducted from the micro list.

They made the DBC bundles irregular and out of order.. 

The TBAR bundles were regular and in order.  <<< that was checked against the pre NORJAK micro (which was to have 1500 bills removed)


There is a "possibility" that the TBAR bundles came from the 15 regular and sequential bundles left behind and were not given to DBC which were irregular and mixed sequence.

FLYJACK,

Whether you understand it or not, your last sentence above suggests that the Tina Bar money did not come from Cooper.  So just exactly how did it get from the Bank in Seattle to Tina Bar? ???

I do understand and have no idea other than hypotheticals. One would be that those bundles were paid out to another ransom event and somehow made it to TBAR.

FLYJACK,

Do you offer that as a serious answer? :o When do you expect to return from your travels to somewhere beyond Pluto? ???

What part of "no idea" do you fail to understand?

Why don't you start focusing on facts rather than hypotheticals and things you have "no idea" about? :(

I did, the facts raise doubts about the establishment and integrity of the FBI Cooper bill list and the TBAR money. You ask, how then would it get from the bank to TBAR. I said "no idea" other than hypotheticals.

Then you applied a straw-man attacking me for using hypotheticals, and you intentionally ignored the entire detailed discussion about the potential bill list error just to undermine my cred.

Can you explain why the DBC bundles were irregular $500's and $1000's and re-ordered but the TBAR bundles were regular bundles of 100's = $2000/bundle and in order?

.

The only thing that supposes the Ingram bundles were ' regular bundles of 100's = $2000/bundle' is (a) a potentially mistaken assertion by Ckret early in his analysis, and nobody else, and (b) an assertion by the Ingrams that two of their socalled bundles had rubber bands defining each of two bundles - rubber bands which nobody saw but the Ingrams!. In fact the FBI didn't see or comment about "any" rubber bands being on the Ingram money! Tom Kaye didn't find any evidence of rubber bands on his bills. The assertion that the Ingram find consisted of  2 bundles plus part of a third bundle each with 100 $20 twenties, could be flat out wrong! To my knowledge that assertion was never anything more than an early guess without any hard evidence backing it up.

I believe Ckret later changed his opinion after talking to the man who actually put the bundles together at the bank.

The only people that saw the money come out of the ground was the Ingrams. Their comments about rubber bands is obscure at best! There could have been 50 pieces of rubber bands, or 1 piece or 2 or 3. All the Ingrams said was rubber bands (plural) and "they fell apart and turned to dust when touched". We don't know how many bills were between rubber band defined margins when the Ingrams found the money, and the Ingrams don't know either!. The FBI Lab never said two bundles plus or 'each bundle was 100 bills each'. All the FBI got delivered to them was a bunch of groups of money and apparently the FBI Lab didn't see any bands at all! What the Ingrams delivered to H was a shoebox with groups of old stuck bills. The FBI layed these groups out on a table for the press to photograph - do you see any rubber bands there? When you look as those groups of bills on a table you tell me what is a bundle or not! ?  I think that makes my point.

The weakness in this theory is that Ingram find was bundles of 100 bills each. That was to my knowledge never more than conjecture or an estimate and a rumor started at Dropzone. Does any official source say this? The fact of the matter is the actual number of bills represented in the Ingram find was almost uncountable and unknown - the auction company was still finding new serial numbers (15+) after Ingrams delivered fragments of bills to be sold.

If the story about the bank employee placing a red dot at the start and end of each group of bills he put together as bundles is true, then that defines how many bills were in each bundle. Those groups and their serial numbers should match what was sent from the bank to be given to Cooper - it should also match the FBI's list of what was given to Cooper, theoretically. 
     
I believe that may be where part of the current problem is. Wrong fact assumed: each bundle given to Cooper had equal numbers of bills per bundle (100 = $2000) ?
 
« Last Edit: May 11, 2017, 05:20:01 AM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3049 on: May 11, 2017, 08:55:47 AM »
Quote
The only people that saw the money come out of the ground was the Ingrams. Their comments about rubber bands is obscure at best!

This is why I keep saying nobody really got the answers, or asked the right questions. if they did, they might of faded over time. I wish we could get some direct answers from Brian..'the bands crumbled when touched" "still had the rubber bands" "clumps of money" 'petrified" etc. etc.

The documented evidence shows the bills were in bundles of $2,000. Carr appears to claim they were not. I haven't read anything (to date) of anyone else backing Carr's claim...I really don't see anything other than Carr's claim possibly being inaccurate...
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3050 on: May 11, 2017, 08:56:07 AM »
There is confirmation that the bank guy recorded the top and bottom bill serial numbers for the 15 non DBC bundles.

Did the exact same bank guy also add the red dots to the micro print out or was that done later by the FBI using his recorded numbers?


There is another possibility, we have made an assumption.

That the bank's $250k stash was 100% accurate to the pre-NORJAK created photo'd micro list.

If the bank had paid out $25k a year earlier (as in the case I posted earlier) from their emergency stash and replaced it without updating the micro list. The FBI list would have bundle bill numbers that were never given to DBC.

The FBI list wasn't creating by confirmation but by exclusion based on an unverifiable bank generated list.

They assumed the bank generated micro matched the $250k at 100% and removed the 15 bundles left behind based on top and bottom bill numbers. Lots of room for error at several levels.


 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3051 on: May 11, 2017, 09:20:19 AM »
I'm not so sure they tossed money around like it was candy. a thousand dollars was a shit load of money in 1971. I can't see bankers making huge mistakes like this. it would show very poor management in that bank.
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3052 on: May 11, 2017, 09:26:06 AM »
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I'm not so sure they tossed money around like it was candy. a thousand dollars was a shit load of money in 1971. I can't see bankers making huge mistakes like this. it would show very poor management in that bank.

tossed around?

There is no way to track the integrity of the bill list on micro vs $250k emergency stash. If they used any ransom from it, the micro would have to be redone. If it wasn't, that list is wrong and the FBI DBC list is wrong
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3053 on: May 11, 2017, 09:29:05 AM »
That's the problem we have, a lot of "If's"
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3054 on: May 11, 2017, 09:45:22 AM »
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That's the problem we have, a lot of "If's"

The problem is the FBI DBC bill list was not created by active confirmation but by an assumption and then negation.

 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3055 on: May 11, 2017, 09:49:17 AM »
The way I'm seeing this is, it's doubtful any of the other bills go into the mix, if they didn't make a new list, they should still be able to verify the bills, and the order, if they didn't mix them up. I don't think we have enough proof either way to date..?
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3056 on: May 11, 2017, 09:57:44 AM »
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The way I'm seeing this is, it's doubtful any of the other bills go into the mix, if they didn't make a new list, they should still be able to verify the bills, and the order, if they didn't mix them up. I don't think we have enough proof either way to date..?

We don't have proof..  the grand point is the assumption that the FBI bill list was 100% accurate is flawed. So, using the TBAR bill numbers to confirm against a less than 100% verifiable FBI list opens up the possibility that TBAR might not be from bundles delivered to DBC.

and a flawed FBI bill list resolves the (claimed) TBAR bundles regular/ordered vs DBC bundles irregular/disordered..
« Last Edit: May 11, 2017, 10:31:26 AM by FLYJACK »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3057 on: May 11, 2017, 10:50:51 AM »
The Washington Historical Society contacted me and supplied the audio I was searching for. I'm currently transferring it to You Tube....Gwen Whiting, who was part of the interview is the person who contacted me...
« Last Edit: May 11, 2017, 10:53:08 AM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3058 on: May 11, 2017, 11:19:00 AM »
Gwen Whiting believes it's possible that $250,000 was given to Cooper to weed out suspects...this would be something only the hijacker, and the FBI knew?
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3059 on: May 11, 2017, 11:23:09 AM »
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And I'm a math guy....,what a rookie mistake!  Unbelievable.  Guess I won't be bugging you anymore, FLYJACK.  You caught me making my biggest blunder of all time here.  In any event, I do read and study your posts carefully, and I will continue to do so. 

But, let me ask the same question, how feasible is it, in the time allotted, for the bank guy to make 100 bundles irregular?  Same argument, just not so way out there.....Meyer

Forget about it, we all make dumb mistakes..

According to Georger the bank was asked by the FBI to make the bundles irregular, I assume one guy but maybe more than one.

but estimate 1 guy maybe 20 seconds per 1 bundle (generous), 3 bundles per minute = 33 minutes straight time, quicker maybe 20-25 minutes.

Not hard, if he happened to miss a few the probability of 3 regular bundles making it together to TBAR is very low.

I doubt he missed any though since he was ordered by the FBI..

Just coming in been busy. First a Ckret post:

Ckret
Apr 19, 2008, 8:54 AM
Post #1468 of 58140 (58777 views)
          Re: [Orange1] Back to Basics [In reply to]
 
________________________________________
I found the guy who packed the money and put it in the bag in 1971. He is going to find the best example of the bag he can and give it to me. Once I have it I will post it for all.

Sluggo, I haven't forgotten you, just slammed right now.


Shutter says in a PM to me:

John Trandall, head of security for the bank...he also gave them a list of the one's not to count as ransom money...

It's in the post Flyjack has, and it's at the end of the files from Gray....


So it may be John Trandall who Ckret found. Trandall made the irregular count bundles given to Cooper at FBI request so 'it would look like the money was put together in haste'. Why that would matter is beyond me. And, the serial numbers in Trandall's packets were presumably in the same order as they are on the bank's master Recordak of their $250k. I believe Trandall is now deceased.

*Again, if the Ingram serial numbers match the numbers on the FBI list created by Trandall, and do not match serial numbers in the $50k bills returned to SeaFirst (not used in the Cooper case), then Ingram bills must be part of the $200k given to Cooper. And it is irrelevant what happened to the $50k not used in the Cooper case.

Here is a Recordak photo showing serial numbers and Trandall's red ink marks where he marked off the beginning and ending serial numbers of each bundle he made given to Cooper - these marks (so far as I know) where the basis for the FBI's list of Cooper serial numbers.

That is the story I have.
   

Georger,

I just realized from the image you posted that there is no way that bill list and red dots were created by the bank guy. It was done later by the FBI or somebody used a modified list, it is not in physical bill order.

That list is re-ordered alpha numerically, it is not an exact print of the Micro. The micro was all bills in physical order not alpha numeric. If somebody printed the list alpha numerically to eliminate those 1500 bill's there would be a significant error.

Eliminating the 1500 non DBC bills can only be done on the original micro list with bill's listed in physical order.


If the FBI printed out the Micro in alpha numeric and not used the original order then tried to eliminate the 1500 non-DBC bills that would be a catastrophic error. The FBI would have non DBC bills listed and DBC bills removed.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2017, 11:40:23 AM by FLYJACK »