Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find  (Read 1364225 times)

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3030 on: May 10, 2017, 06:20:05 PM »
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It shows they took to many bills out. they were $40 short of 200k

Yes, but it supports the process and room for error.

QUESTIONED THE ACCURACY OF DEDUCTING THE BILL'S LEFT BEHIND in the bag.

There was ONLY one list on micro for $250k made prior to NORJAK, regular bundles and in order.

15 bundes of $20's were left behind (non-DBC money), they needed to be deducted from the micro list.

They made the DBC bundlesThe TBAR bundles were regular and in order... 

The TBAR bundles were regular and in order.  <<< that was checked against the pre NORJAK micro (which was to have 1500 bills removed)

Ok, 'The TBAR bundles were regular and in order' according to who's list? Answer: the FBI's amended list in its pamphlet, which was created from using the bank's list. Red dots were placed on a printout of the bank's list to mark off bundled serial numbers given to Cooper'. That was the process (its my understanding). But the bills given to Cooper were 'The TBAR bundles were regular and in order'.

The $250k at the bank was in serial number (regular) order and microfilmed (via Recordak) at the bank. That microfilm is the original "list" with film put into a canister (nobody can find now).

Then the story is a second thing happened prior to delivery to SeaTac. Still at the bank, Mr. ______________ took all of the bills after passing through the Recordak recorder still in serial order and he made and wrapped bundles of varying amounts (by instruction of the FBI) to make it look like the bundles "had been assembled in haste". That accounts for why the bundles had varying amounts $500 to $2000 each. Mr. _________________ put red dots on a printout of the bank's master list to mark the beginning and ending serial numbers of each group/bundle he had made to be given to Cooper. (I have a photo of that list with red dots somewhere in my files).

The assembled bundles were then placed in a large bank bag and delivered to SeaFirst. They needed only $200k but Mr. ________________ had assembled $250k in bundles! Now they have to remove $50 to give to Cooper! That may be where an accounting problem happened. But, the bundles delivered to Cooper were random in value ($500 to $2000 each) but within each bundle are serial numbers still in consecutive order ... unless removing some bills at SeaTac screwed up the order of a few bundled serial numbers.

I hope this makes sense. I think this is close to accurate.

It is important to note that the serial number pamphlet the FBI made was made using the SeaFirst master printout that Mr. _____________ had placed his bundling red dots on, to mark the bundles he assembled.

I will try and find a photo of that master printout that shows the red dots _____________ made. That printout is crucial to understanding how the FBI list of serial numbers was created and where it came from. But, while the bundles are in varying amounts 99.9% of the serial numbers in each bundles should be in numerical order, as assembled by Mr. ________________.

I hope this is accurate!
   

         
« Last Edit: May 10, 2017, 06:27:20 PM by georger »
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3031 on: May 10, 2017, 07:23:50 PM »
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It shows they took to many bills out. they were $40 short of 200k

Yes, but it supports the process and room for error.

QUESTIONED THE ACCURACY OF DEDUCTING THE BILL'S LEFT BEHIND in the bag.

There was ONLY one list on micro for $250k made prior to NORJAK, regular bundles and in order.

15 bundes of $20's were left behind (non-DBC money), they needed to be deducted from the micro list.

They made the DBC bundlesThe TBAR bundles were regular and in order... 

The TBAR bundles were regular and in order.  <<< that was checked against the pre NORJAK micro (which was to have 1500 bills removed)

Ok, 'The TBAR bundles were regular and in order' according to who's list? Answer: the FBI's amended list in its pamphlet, which was created from using the bank's list. Red dots were placed on a printout of the bank's list to mark off bundled serial numbers given to Cooper'. That was the process (its my understanding). But the bills given to Cooper were 'The TBAR bundles were regular and in order'.

The $250k at the bank was in serial number (regular) order and microfilmed (via Recordak) at the bank. That microfilm is the original "list" with film put into a canister (nobody can find now).

Then the story is a second thing happened prior to delivery to SeaTac. Still at the bank, Mr. ______________ took all of the bills after passing through the Recordak recorder still in serial order and he made and wrapped bundles of varying amounts (by instruction of the FBI) to make it look like the bundles "had been assembled in haste". That accounts for why the bundles had varying amounts $500 to $2000 each. Mr. _________________ put red dots on a printout of the bank's master list to mark the beginning and ending serial numbers of each group/bundle he had made to be given to Cooper. (I have a photo of that list with red dots somewhere in my files).

The assembled bundles were then placed in a large bank bag and delivered to SeaFirst. They needed only $200k but Mr. ________________ had assembled $250k in bundles! Now they have to remove $50 to give to Cooper! That may be where an accounting problem happened. But, the bundles delivered to Cooper were random in value ($500 to $2000 each) but within each bundle are serial numbers still in consecutive order ... unless removing some bills at SeaTac screwed up the order of a few bundled serial numbers.

I hope this makes sense. I think this is close to accurate.

It is important to note that the serial number pamphlet the FBI made was made using the SeaFirst master printout that Mr. _____________ had placed his bundling red dots on, to mark the bundles he assembled.

I will try and find a photo of that master printout that shows the red dots _____________ made. That printout is crucial to understanding how the FBI list of serial numbers was created and where it came from. But, while the bundles are in varying amounts 99.9% of the serial numbers in each bundles should be in numerical order, as assembled by Mr. ________________.

I hope this is accurate!
   

       

Very close to my understanding but very slight differences, open to confirmation/challenge.

$250k is kept for ransom emergencies by Bank, $230k is in regular bundle 100x$20's counts and all $250k is recorded in order on micro. The other $20k is in $10's so they ignored those..

Bank guy takes $200k of the $20 bundles and makes them irregular as he rebundles/bands, the order would change.

Of the remaining $50k there are 15 bundles of $20's ($30k) unused and left regular and in same sequence as recorded on micro.

Bank guy records first and last serial of the leftover 15x$20 bundles in bag, not the DBC money. These are compared to the micro list and recorded so the in-between bills can be removed to create a published DBC list. << this is how it is explained in the FBI files?

Just mixing up the printed pages would destroy the integrity of those red dots.

So, the red dots are marks for exclusion points not inclusion...

If the FBI used the red dots to somehow include they may have excluded the wrong groups "in between" red dots and some of the 15 bundles of $20's not delivered to DBC would remain on the amended list with some DBC money removed. The lawyer found 2 bills short on the amended list... hint of errors, no way to check if they excluded the correct 1500 $20 bills.


Speculation below alert,
It may be a clerical/communication error between the FBI and bank employee about the red dots.

If the red dots were meant to mark end and start points for exclusion, that may not be clear to the micro list editor.

They may have excluded the wrong 1500 $20 bills (or some). If so, some of the regular and sequential 1500 bill's NOT given to DBC would be on the FBI list and some DBC bills removed.

DBC bundles were made irregular (sequence altered), $500's and $1000's
The 15 non DBC bundles were regular and sequential, $2000's
The TBAR bundles were regular and sequential, $2000's

The TBAR money may be from the 15 non DBC bundles and by error were included on the FBI list.

If the list was in error and included some of those 1500 non DBC bundles and they were later reused as a bank emergency ransom cash stash, the TBAR bundles may be from another later ransom payout somebody buried in the sand.

The TBAR money could have come from the same origninal $250k bank ransom stash as the $200k taken and given to DBC.

Nothing nefarious, no plant just a clerical/communication error editing the list and luck finding those 3 TBAR bundles.

Were there any other unrecovered ransom payouts in PNW post NORJAK from 1971-1980.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2017, 08:10:54 PM by FLYJACK »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3032 on: May 10, 2017, 10:13:00 PM »
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Just a quick update. I was again in Portland yesterday and river level is very high still.

But Kermit, we've had 4 days of sunshine!!! How can that be????
 
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Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3033 on: May 10, 2017, 10:36:49 PM »
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Very close to my understanding but very slight differences, open to confirmation/challenge.

$250k is kept for ransom emergencies by Bank, $230k is in regular bundle 100x$20's counts and all $250k is recorded in order on micro. The other $20k is in $10's so they ignored those...

...The TBAR money may be from the 15 non DBC bundles and by error were included on the FBI list....

... the TBAR bundles may be from another later ransom payout somebody buried in the sand.


This is getting to be a very interesting discussion. Thank you Flyjack, Georger and Shutter for teasing all of the info into greater understanding.

What I gather from your postings is this:

1. Seafirst Bank had $250 K stashed away. $230 was in twenties, and $20K in tens.
2. The recorded serial numbers come from the original collection of the $250K stash.
3. A mistake or mix-up on numbers may have occurred when $200K was removed from the bag of $230K worth of twenties. Hence, the T-Bar money may not have been given to DB Cooper.
4. The unused bundle of $30K twenties may have been re-deposited into a new ransom stash at Seafirst Bank and then later given to another criminal in a latter extortion effort.
5. This second crime may be the ultimate source of the T-Bar money.
6. Or the 30 grand was stolen from Seafirst by insiders during the Cooper bundling process and then buried at TBar or near the Columbia River for eventual re-deposit by Mother Nature/Dredge at TBar.

Am I following the essential plot line here?
 
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FLYJACK

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3034 on: May 10, 2017, 10:50:09 PM »
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Very close to my understanding but very slight differences, open to confirmation/challenge.

$250k is kept for ransom emergencies by Bank, $230k is in regular bundle 100x$20's counts and all $250k is recorded in order on micro. The other $20k is in $10's so they ignored those...

...The TBAR money may be from the 15 non DBC bundles and by error were included on the FBI list....

... the TBAR bundles may be from another later ransom payout somebody buried in the sand.


This is getting to be a very interesting discussion. Thank you Flyjack, Georger and Shutter for teasing all of the info into greater understanding.

What I gather from your postings is this:

1. Seafirst Bank had $250 K stashed away. $230 was in twenties, and $20K in tens.
2. The recorded serial numbers come from the original collection of the $250K stash.
3. A mistake or mix-up on numbers may have occurred when $200K was removed from the bag of $230K worth of twenties. Hence, the T-Bar money may not have been given to DB Cooper.
4. The unused bundle of $30K twenties may have been re-deposited into a new ransom stash at Seafirst Bank and then later given to another criminal in a latter extortion effort.
5. This second crime may be the ultimate source of the T-Bar money.
6. Or the 30 grand was stolen from Seafirst by insiders during the Cooper bundling process and then buried at TBar or near the Columbia River for eventual re-deposit by Mother Nature/Dredge at TBar.

Am I following the essential plot line here?

Close,

except #3. the money wasn't mixed up, the clerical removal of the 1500 serial numbers from the bank micro list to create the FBI DBC money list may have been done in error.


A. Prior to NORJAK, Bank guy A photos and puts on micro in physical order 11500 $20’s bills in 100 = $2000/bundle count bundles.

B. From the bank stash, Bank guy B takes 10000 $20 bills and makes the bundles irregular $500’s and $1000, this would alter the bill order. Sends money to DBC. $200k

C. Bank guy B also takes the remaining non DBC 1500 bills in 15 bundles of 100 or $2000/bundle still in order and records the top and bottom bill for each of those 15 bundles to eliminate them and bill's “in between" from the micro list.

D. FBI gets the micro canister delivered with a list of the 15 bundles top and bottom bill numbers to exclude from micro. Those top and bottom bill numbers are marked (red dot) on a copy of the micro list and bill’s are eliminated "in between" them. Explained in FBI file.

E. The TBAR money is regular bundled $2000/bundle, bill numbers and order match the amended FBI list.

F. A lawyer writes to NWA claiming that there are only 9998 bill’s on the FBI amended list and questions the bill elimination accuracy.




Room for clerical/communication error between C and D. Result would be an FBI list that contains bill numbers for bundles never given to DBC and excludes DBC delivered bill’s.


If true, then TBAR money may be from the unused 15 bundles AKA non-DBC delivered money.

and the TBAR find would be unrelated to NORJAK delivered ransom money.



Still looking for other unrecovered bank ransom money in PNW post NORJAK 71-80..
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3035 on: May 10, 2017, 10:55:53 PM »
T'anks.
 

Offline Kermit

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3036 on: May 10, 2017, 11:20:31 PM »
Bruce
I'm sure you're aware that there are more than one thing that affects the Columbia river levels. Tide of course but water release from Bonnevile dam, snow melt from tributaries and of course the weather. I know ..... it's fun just pulling my chain .... LOL😜🐸👍
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3037 on: May 10, 2017, 11:33:42 PM »
Found this,,,

Desert Sun, Number 42, 22 September 1970

Ransom Bid Nets Arrest
PORTLAND, Ore. (UPI)The FBI has arrested a 29-year-old West German auto mechanic and charged him with the ransom bomb threat against a Western Airlines jet last month. The suspect was identified by the FBI Monday as Goetz Toni Johannes Spiewak, a citizen of West Germany. He was charged with wilfully making a false report in the Aug. 11 incident in which Western paid a ransom of $25,000 after a man telephoned and threatened to blow up the plane. It was the first known instance in which an airline paid ransom to prevent having one of its planes destroyed. Shortly after the Boeing 727 jet took off from Anchorage, Alaska, with 125 persons aboard bound for Seattle, Western’s Anchorage office received a call from a man who identified himself as “Bob Benpett.” The caller said he had put a pressure-sensitive bomb on the plane and set it to explode when the plane descended to 10,900 feet. He said he would tell the airline how to disarm the device if he were paid $25,000. The airline delivered the ransom by bank messenger to a rendezvous on an Anchorage street. But the man never called back and no bomb was found on the airliner, which was thoroughly searched while it circled at 30,000 feet. It landed at Seattle without incident. The FBI said the ransom money had been paid, but declined to say whether it was recovered. Spiewok was arrested late Sunday night at a Portland residence.



We need to know the date of the micro creation by the bank for the $250k stash and the establishment and continuity of that stash..

Hypothetical, if the $250k bank micro was created prior to the above incident (Aug 1970) the $25k was paid from the bank stash to the perp. The $25k for the bank emergency stash was replenished but the micro wasn't updated. The bill serial numbers for this 1970 ransom payment could be on the micro for NORJAK. This guy was arrested in Portland and the FBI won't disclose if ransom money recovered.. could that ransom money end up in TBAR.

The problem is the DBC bill list was created by negation, not confirmation, the micro was used as a baseline then 1500 $20 bills deducted. No proof the baseline micro accurately matched the $250k bank stash or that the 1500 bill's were deducted correctly.

The above ransom payout is theoretically possible to be TBAR money, still looking for post NORJAK ransom events.

 

Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3038 on: May 11, 2017, 12:26:10 AM »
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It shows they took to many bills out. they were $40 short of 200k

Yes, but it supports the questionable process and demonstrates room for error. It confirms at least two errors were made editing the micro list (deducting the left behind bundle #'s). THAT is significant. That error was only caught because it was 2 bills short. There is no way to catch the wrong bill numbers being deducted.

QUESTIONED THE ACCURACY OF DEDUCTING THE BILL'S LEFT BEHIND in the bag.

There was ONLY one list on micro for $250k made prior to NORJAK, regular bundles and in order.

15 bundes of $20's were left behind (non-DBC money), they needed to be deducted from the micro list.

They made the DBC bundles irregular and out of order.. 

The TBAR bundles were regular and in order.  <<< that was checked against the pre NORJAK micro (which was to have 1500 bills removed)


There is a "possibility" that the TBAR bundles came from the 15 regular and sequential bundles left behind and were not given to DBC which were irregular and mixed sequence.

FLYJACK,

Whether you understand it or not, your last sentence above suggests that the Tina Bar money did not come from Cooper.  So just exactly how did it get from the Bank in Seattle to Tina Bar? ???
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3039 on: May 11, 2017, 12:37:00 AM »
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And I'm a math guy....same question, how feasible is it, in the time allotted, to make 100 bundles irregular?  The bank guy still has a big challenge....same argument, just not so way out there.....Meyer

According to Georger the bank was asked by the FBI to make the bundles irregular, I assume one guy but maybe more than one.

but estimate 1 guy maybe 20 seconds per 1 bundle (generous), 3 bundles per minute = 33 minutes straight time, quicker maybe 20-25 minutes.

Not hard, if he happened to miss a few the probability of 3 regular bundles making it together to TBAR is very low.

I doubt he missed any though since he was ordered by the FBI..
« Last Edit: May 11, 2017, 12:42:31 AM by FLYJACK »
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3040 on: May 11, 2017, 12:40:41 AM »
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It shows they took to many bills out. they were $40 short of 200k

Yes, but it supports the questionable process and demonstrates room for error. It confirms at least two errors were made editing the micro list (deducting the left behind bundle #'s). THAT is significant. That error was only caught because it was 2 bills short. There is no way to catch the wrong bill numbers being deducted.

QUESTIONED THE ACCURACY OF DEDUCTING THE BILL'S LEFT BEHIND in the bag.

There was ONLY one list on micro for $250k made prior to NORJAK, regular bundles and in order.

15 bundes of $20's were left behind (non-DBC money), they needed to be deducted from the micro list.

They made the DBC bundles irregular and out of order.. 

The TBAR bundles were regular and in order.  <<< that was checked against the pre NORJAK micro (which was to have 1500 bills removed)


There is a "possibility" that the TBAR bundles came from the 15 regular and sequential bundles left behind and were not given to DBC which were irregular and mixed sequence.

FLYJACK,

Whether you understand it or not, your last sentence above suggests that the Tina Bar money did not come from Cooper.  So just exactly how did it get from the Bank in Seattle to Tina Bar? ???

I do understand and have no idea other than hypotheticals. One would be that those bundles were paid out to another ransom event and somehow made it to TBAR.
 

Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3041 on: May 11, 2017, 12:52:12 AM »
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It shows they took to many bills out. they were $40 short of 200k

Yes, but it supports the questionable process and demonstrates room for error. It confirms at least two errors were made editing the micro list (deducting the left behind bundle #'s). THAT is significant. That error was only caught because it was 2 bills short. There is no way to catch the wrong bill numbers being deducted.

QUESTIONED THE ACCURACY OF DEDUCTING THE BILL'S LEFT BEHIND in the bag.

There was ONLY one list on micro for $250k made prior to NORJAK, regular bundles and in order.

15 bundes of $20's were left behind (non-DBC money), they needed to be deducted from the micro list.

They made the DBC bundles irregular and out of order.. 

The TBAR bundles were regular and in order.  <<< that was checked against the pre NORJAK micro (which was to have 1500 bills removed)


There is a "possibility" that the TBAR bundles came from the 15 regular and sequential bundles left behind and were not given to DBC which were irregular and mixed sequence.

FLYJACK,

Whether you understand it or not, your last sentence above suggests that the Tina Bar money did not come from Cooper.  So just exactly how did it get from the Bank in Seattle to Tina Bar? ???

I do understand and have no idea other than hypotheticals. One would be that those bundles were paid out to another ransom event and somehow made it to TBAR.

FLYJACK,

Do you offer that as a serious answer? :o When do you expect to return from your travels to somewhere beyond Pluto? ???
 

MeyerLouie

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3042 on: May 11, 2017, 12:52:22 AM »
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It shows they took to many bills out. they were $40 short of 200k

Bank guy takes $200k of the $20 bundles and makes them irregular as he rebundles/bands, the order would change.


Really now.....each bundle has 100 20s = $2000.  Then I take $200,000 and divide that by 2000 = 1000 ordered bundles that came from the bank.  So, you're saying the bank guy had time to make these 1000 ordered bundles irregular and rebundled, with bands.  That's 1000 bundles.  How much time did he have between the time Cooper passed the note to Florence to when the money was actually delivered to 305 in Seattle?  Not enough time to re-order 1000 bundles of 20s -- that's for sure.  You are assuming all the bundles that DBC got were irregular, and that all the bills at Tina Bar were regular (which is true). 

I think it's very likely that most of the bundles that Cooper got were bundled and regular.  How many of the 1000 bundles actually got reordered and rebundled?  300?  400?  500 at the most.  That's all the bank guy had time for.  If that's true, that makes 50-70% of the bundles Cooper got regular and ordered.  The irregular/unordered stacks were probably stacked on top of the ordered/regular bundles -- to make Cooper think bills were hastily bundled.  So, 3 regular/ordered bundles at Tina Bar would not be unusual.  In fact, it would be highly likely if you use a very conservative probability estimate of  50-70%.  Correct probability application, using the multiplication property, would even put these probabilities much higher -- but we won't complicate the discussion with such formulas.

You make a bold assumption here, Flyjack.  Too bold, in my mind's eye....

MeyerLouie


Meyer,

$200,000 / $2000 per bundle = 100 bundles.. not 1000 bundles

And I'm a math guy....,what a rookie mistake!  Unbelievable.  Guess I won't be bugging you anymore, FLYJACK.  You caught me making my biggest blunder of all time here.  In any event, I do read and study your posts carefully, and I will continue to do so. 

But, let me ask the same question, how feasible is it, in the time allotted, for the bank guy to make 100 bundles irregular?  Same argument, just not so way out there.....Meyer
« Last Edit: May 11, 2017, 12:53:53 AM by MeyerLouie »
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3043 on: May 11, 2017, 01:00:31 AM »
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And I'm a math guy....,what a rookie mistake!  Unbelievable.  Guess I won't be bugging you anymore, FLYJACK.  You caught me making my biggest blunder of all time here.  In any event, I do read and study your posts carefully, and I will continue to do so. 

But, let me ask the same question, how feasible is it, in the time allotted, for the bank guy to make 100 bundles irregular?  Same argument, just not so way out there.....Meyer

Forget about it, we all make dumb mistakes..

According to Georger the bank was asked by the FBI to make the bundles irregular, I assume one guy but maybe more than one.

but estimate 1 guy maybe 20 seconds per 1 bundle (generous), 3 bundles per minute = 33 minutes straight time, quicker maybe 20-25 minutes.

Not hard, if he happened to miss a few the probability of 3 regular bundles making it together to TBAR is very low.

I doubt he missed any though since he was ordered by the FBI..
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3044 on: May 11, 2017, 01:04:35 AM »
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It shows they took to many bills out. they were $40 short of 200k

Yes, but it supports the questionable process and demonstrates room for error. It confirms at least two errors were made editing the micro list (deducting the left behind bundle #'s). THAT is significant. That error was only caught because it was 2 bills short. There is no way to catch the wrong bill numbers being deducted.

QUESTIONED THE ACCURACY OF DEDUCTING THE BILL'S LEFT BEHIND in the bag.

There was ONLY one list on micro for $250k made prior to NORJAK, regular bundles and in order.

15 bundes of $20's were left behind (non-DBC money), they needed to be deducted from the micro list.

They made the DBC bundles irregular and out of order.. 

The TBAR bundles were regular and in order.  <<< that was checked against the pre NORJAK micro (which was to have 1500 bills removed)


There is a "possibility" that the TBAR bundles came from the 15 regular and sequential bundles left behind and were not given to DBC which were irregular and mixed sequence.

FLYJACK,

Whether you understand it or not, your last sentence above suggests that the Tina Bar money did not come from Cooper.  So just exactly how did it get from the Bank in Seattle to Tina Bar? ???

I do understand and have no idea other than hypotheticals. One would be that those bundles were paid out to another ransom event and somehow made it to TBAR.

FLYJACK,

Do you offer that as a serious answer? :o When do you expect to return from your travels to somewhere beyond Pluto? ???

What part of "no idea" do you fail to understand?