Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find  (Read 1357860 times)

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #300 on: November 24, 2014, 11:48:51 PM »
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Quote
Carr's suggestion as to how the money came out of the bag and stayed together seems reasonable.

Agreed, but we need reasonable proof to prove it. that's the toughest part of it all....
I respectfully disagree.  Everybody in that region heard the news of the skyjacking and was on the lookout for parachutes, a white bag, or bundles of $20 bills.  I can't see money laying out in the open for the lengthy amount of time it would take to become buried.

That's actually a very good point. The process that brought the money has to also remove it from view in a reasonable amount of time!  :o

Only a few processes qualify.


 
« Last Edit: November 24, 2014, 11:58:20 PM by georger »
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #301 on: November 24, 2014, 11:57:30 PM »
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Currency:

The paper and ink used in the production of U.S. paper currency is as distinct as its design.  The paper comes to the BEP in brown paper-wrapped loads of 20,000 sheets (2 pallets of 10,000 sheets).  Each of these sheets is tracked by the BEP as it passes through the production process.   And, the total inventory of 20,000 sheets is continually reconciled to make sure each sheet is accounted for.  Currency paper is specifically made for the BEP by Crane Paper Company.  The ordinary paper that consumers use throughout their everyday life such as newspapers, books, cereal boxes, etc, is primarily made of wood pulp; however, United States currency paper is composed of 75% cotton and 25% linen.  This is what gives United States currency its distinct look and feel.  For denominations of $5 and above, the security thread, and watermark are already built into the paper when it is received.
 
All bills, regardless of denomination, utilize green ink on the backs.  Faces, on the other hand, use black ink, color-shifting ink in the lower right hand corner for the $10 denominations and higher, and metallic ink for the freedom icons on redesigned $10, $20, and $50 bills.   The $100 note's "bell in the inkwell" freedom icon uses color-shifting ink.  These and the other inks appearing on U.S. currency are specially formulated and blended by the BEP.  Inks headed for BEP presses also undergo continual quality testing.

An emulsifier is added which holds the fibres together. I have a complete list of the chemistry on that paper...
an expert (chemist) on paper money was one of those in the original team.

 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #302 on: November 25, 2014, 07:53:04 AM »
My theory is that if Cooper secured the bag tight for the trip down it's possible over time the bundles became one. I'm wondering how many stacks were in the bag, or tiers? the bundles were clearly bonded together. Brian found other bills the FBI missed, rather PCGS currency found more bills stuck together. the bag should also act similar to the rubber bands holding the money together.

The following statement is in the "Timeline For Tena Bar dig" found on Citizensleuths.

"Numbered sequence of the bills in the stack still the same (Oregonian)"

Larry Carr states differently:

"I know what your saying when you write, "the money is in the same order as when it was handed to Cooper" but the order per serial number was never documented. There is no indication the money was re-bundled."

"The money was packaged in varying amounts, so one bundle would have $500.00 another $1,000.00, there was no uniformity to it."
« Last Edit: November 25, 2014, 07:55:15 AM by shutter »
 

Offline BuckwheatFlowers

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #303 on: November 25, 2014, 08:34:59 AM »
If Cooper no-pulled, plunged into the Columbia a few feet on the outside of the channel (5-10 ft depth), how far would/could he have gone into the mud at the bottom?  Could he have gone far enough in to be stuck in the muck along with the money?   
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #304 on: November 25, 2014, 08:43:04 AM »
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If Cooper no-pulled, plunged into the Columbia a few feet on the outside of the channel (5-10 ft depth), how far would/could he have gone into the mud at the bottom?  Could he have gone far enough in to be stuck in the muck along with the money?   

I can only speculate here. as Ross has pointed out a body is almost weightless underwater, so it's hard to tell where he could end up. he could of been stuck in place, his body could of been snagged on something, but things would slowly separate from the body. clothing would slowly degrade, the money could become loose and leave it's original spot on the body. since we have no known point of contact with the river it's hard to say where the starting point would be.
 

Offline BuckwheatFlowers

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #305 on: November 25, 2014, 08:52:03 AM »
You ever jump off a rope swing when water level kind of low?  Sometimes your feet will go a few inches into the mud... and your'e only going what....5mph?  So I was just curious as to how far one would go into the mud layer (I know... that's not a scientific term) if one was going over 100 mph.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #306 on: November 25, 2014, 09:07:01 AM »
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You ever jump off a rope swing when water level kind of low?  Sometimes your feet will go a few inches into the mud... and your'e only going what....5mph?  So I was just curious as to how far one would go into the mud layer (I know... that's not a scientific term) if one was going over 100 mph.

That's above my head. perhaps Georger, or Robert99 can answer than one. I'm sure a lot would depend on how he hit the water, how deep it was etc.
 

Offline nmiwrecks

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #307 on: November 25, 2014, 09:15:48 AM »
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If Cooper no-pulled, plunged into the Columbia a few feet on the outside of the channel (5-10 ft depth), how far would/could he have gone into the mud at the bottom?  Could he have gone far enough in to be stuck in the muck along with the money?   

I can only speculate here. as Ross has pointed out a body is almost weightless underwater, so it's hard to tell where he could end up. he could of been stuck in place, his body could of been snagged on something, but things would slowly separate from the body. clothing would slowly degrade, the money could become loose and leave it's original spot on the body. since we have no known point of contact with the river it's hard to say where the starting point would be.

River bottoms, especially large river bottoms like the Columbia with a huge amounts of water flow are very dynamic areas.  Sand bars form and move, holes are created by water flow around obstacles like trees and then filled in when the obstacle moves.  There are back waters and and the changing volume (depth) of water has a substantial affect on the river bottom topography. 

It is possible for an item like the money bag or a body to become covered or submerged in silt or mud on the bottom of a river like the Columbia in a short amount of time, regardless of the depth.  Theoretically, the money bag and even a body could have tumbled along the bottom until it was snagged by a log or other obstacle or fell into a "hole" (we've all heard of fishing holes) out of the flow of water and was covered by silt, sand and dirt particles that met the same fate (fell into a hole with limited water flow).
"If you always do what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you’ve always got." - Henry Ford
 

Offline nmiwrecks

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #308 on: November 25, 2014, 09:23:17 AM »
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You ever jump off a rope swing when water level kind of low?  Sometimes your feet will go a few inches into the mud... and your'e only going what....5mph?  So I was just curious as to how far one would go into the mud layer (I know... that's not a scientific term) if one was going over 100 mph.

Hitting the water at terminal velocity would be devastating to the human body.  Hitting mud a couple feet below the water's surface at that speed would be horrific and it could bury or partially bury a body or money bag.  Some of the factors would be the density of the mud and the depth of the water over the mud.  River bottoms tend to have dense muddy and sandy bottoms where there is good water flow, and it gets pretty mucky where there isn't.
"If you always do what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you’ve always got." - Henry Ford
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #309 on: November 25, 2014, 10:07:34 AM »
Even a no-pull has lots of factors behind it hitting the water. was it in the middle of the river, on the bank, or just off the bank? would the money stay intact through this process. that would depend on how well he secured the bag. do we have a no-pull over land?

I have a parachute dude on my simulator, but it's not a round canopy, and he doesn't free fall. I've used him in the old jump zone. he lands in the basic area. I have to apply full brakes on the chute for a slow descent. I can drop a 250 lb bomb with a camera on it, but I doubt it's very scientific  ;D

Full brake 8mph @ 750 fpm

Update: I found a free falling skydiver for the sim. I'll install it once I return from work, or as soon as I figure out if there is work today. paint shop holding material up. the downfall of this biz.


« Last Edit: November 25, 2014, 10:55:27 AM by shutter »
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #310 on: November 25, 2014, 01:36:02 PM »
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My theory is that if Cooper secured the bag tight for the trip down it's possible over time the bundles became one. I'm wondering how many stacks were in the bag, or tiers? the bundles were clearly bonded together. Brian found other bills the FBI missed, rather PCGS currency found more bills stuck together. the bag should also act similar to the rubber bands holding the money together.

The following statement is in the "Timeline For Tena Bar dig" found on Citizensleuths.

"Numbered sequence of the bills in the stack still the same (Oregonian)"

Larry Carr states differently:

"I know what your saying when you write, "the money is in the same order as when it was handed to Cooper" but the order per serial number was never documented. There is no indication the money was re-bundled."

"The money was packaged in varying amounts, so one bundle would have $500.00 another $1,000.00, there was no uniformity to it."

Each bundle was supposed to have about $2000, so 100 bundles = $200,000.  There is no reason not to think the content of the Ingram bundles was in the same order as when given, except that order was destroyed partly when the Ingrams pulled the stack apart.
 
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #311 on: November 25, 2014, 01:38:48 PM »
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You ever jump off a rope swing when water level kind of low?  Sometimes your feet will go a few inches into the mud... and your'e only going what....5mph?  So I was just curious as to how far one would go into the mud layer (I know... that's not a scientific term) if one was going over 100 mph.

search DZ for the calculations we did ...
 

Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #312 on: November 25, 2014, 01:46:47 PM »
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If Cooper no-pulled, plunged into the Columbia a few feet on the outside of the channel (5-10 ft depth), how far would/could he have gone into the mud at the bottom?  Could he have gone far enough in to be stuck in the muck along with the money?   

I can only speculate here. as Ross has pointed out a body is almost weightless underwater, so it's hard to tell where he could end up. he could of been stuck in place, his body could of been snagged on something, but things would slowly separate from the body. clothing would slowly degrade, the money could become loose and leave it's original spot on the body. since we have no known point of contact with the river it's hard to say where the starting point would be.

River bottoms, especially large river bottoms like the Columbia with a huge amounts of water flow are very dynamic areas.  Sand bars form and move, holes are created by water flow around obstacles like trees and then filled in when the obstacle moves.  There are back waters and and the changing volume (depth) of water has a substantial affect on the river bottom topography. 

It is possible for an item like the money bag or a body to become covered or submerged in silt or mud on the bottom of a river like the Columbia in a short amount of time, regardless of the depth.  Theoretically, the money bag and even a body could have tumbled along the bottom until it was snagged by a log or other obstacle or fell into a "hole" (we've all heard of fishing holes) out of the flow of water and was covered by silt, sand and dirt particles that met the same fate (fell into a hole with limited water flow).

Let me add some comments and ask a question.  The comments are that a few years ago, the then extant topographical charts for the Tina Bar area listed the "channel" between the Columbia River bank and Caterpillar Island as "mud flats".  Somewhere around the very late 1970s, the Flushing Channel, just south and upstream of Caterpillar Island, between the Columbia River and Vancouver Lake was completed.  Then apparently in the same time frame, the Caterpillar Island "channel" mentioned above was dredged and today there is a marina located in it (Amazon used to live on her boat which was docked there) that appears to be handling boats with drafts of 4+ feet.  Then the money was found at Tina Bar in early 1980.  Yes, I am suggesting that there could easily be a connection between these events.

My question is how long would it take an otherwise unrestrained body to surface in the cold Columbia River waters.  Or how long does it take for the same thing to happen in Lake Michigan. 
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #313 on: November 25, 2014, 01:54:39 PM »
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If Cooper no-pulled, plunged into the Columbia a few feet on the outside of the channel (5-10 ft depth), how far would/could he have gone into the mud at the bottom?  Could he have gone far enough in to be stuck in the muck along with the money?   

I can only speculate here. as Ross has pointed out a body is almost weightless underwater, so it's hard to tell where he could end up. he could of been stuck in place, his body could of been snagged on something, but things would slowly separate from the body. clothing would slowly degrade, the money could become loose and leave it's original spot on the body. since we have no known point of contact with the river it's hard to say where the starting point would be.

River bottoms, especially large river bottoms like the Columbia with a huge amounts of water flow are very dynamic areas.  Sand bars form and move, holes are created by water flow around obstacles like trees and then filled in when the obstacle moves.  There are back waters and and the changing volume (depth) of water has a substantial affect on the river bottom topography. 

It is possible for an item like the money bag or a body to become covered or submerged in silt or mud on the bottom of a river like the Columbia in a short amount of time, regardless of the depth.  Theoretically, the money bag and even a body could have tumbled along the bottom until it was snagged by a log or other obstacle or fell into a "hole" (we've all heard of fishing holes) out of the flow of water and was covered by silt, sand and dirt particles that met the same fate (fell into a hole with limited water flow).

If you go in the river say from Troutdale to Portland, the salvage people we talked to said you would have to clear all the junk on the bottom to get much beyond Portland. There are maps of the bottom junk that is known in the Portland area. Beyond Portland and the Willamette the bottom gets rather smooth except for a few holes but as the other posters said the dynamics of those holes changes over time. The bottom is smooth to the main channel up near Caterpillar Island  along Tena Bar - bottom photography and some bathymetry of that area showed a remarkably smooth bottom in that area (some of those photos and movies were posted at DZ).

Not sure how the main channel transitions over to the Oregon side (wing damn area) across from Caterpillar Isle up to Tena Bar except that is one of the areas Tosaw divers explored looking for Cooper.

 
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #314 on: November 25, 2014, 02:18:56 PM »
Location of Ingram find: 40 feet or 40 yards, from water line ? -

Most accounts place the Ingram find at 40 feet from the water's edge. Sluggo's post below reflects that.
Tom's graphic shows the location as being 40 yards from the water's edge, not 40 feet?

Ingram photo taken at the time:  Note the high apparent elevation of Ingram's position in the photo - this has always been debated for two reasons: (a) people said Brian's location was not 40 feet from the water's edge as reported by Harold at the time, and (b) people noted Tina Bar was not as high in elevation as the photo seems to show. Some people countered: 'the photo showing Brian was taken at a very low angle and does not reflect the true elevation at the location'. ???

Which is correct? 40 feet or 40 yards?

Sluggo's post below:
Sluggo_Monster

Jul 22, 2008, 4:31 PM
Post #3721 of 56245 (48447 views)
    Re: [georger] dredging and trash, report [In reply to]
________________________________________
I have tried without success to find a detailed elevation map of Tina Bar to know exactly what elevations exist there. Is it flat or sloped or what! ? The Ingram photo does not match the FBI excavation photos. But 40ft feet up from the waterline seems consistent in every report. The place the money was found, the slope it was, and distance from the water line on are important because they define the processes that apply at that location vs other locations in that area.

If anyone has a topographic chart of this bar please post it!
The best I could find has 10 ft contour lines. The bar goes up (from the river) to about 20 ft at Lower River Road uniformly.

I'm still looking for a better map. I tried to create a profile from the USGS North American Digital Elevation Data, but it wasn't very informative.

Sluggo_Monster
« Last Edit: November 25, 2014, 02:20:57 PM by georger »