Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find  (Read 1364181 times)

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2985 on: May 09, 2017, 10:32:18 AM »
Brian claims that they had rubber bands on them, implying that three bundles were found. I think Carr gave an estimate vs what the bundles consisted of. something is obviously out of whack...a bundle of $500 would be hard to secure with a rubber band...that's only 25 bills.

This is why I keep saying that it appears nobody asked them the right questions. all this silence from these people is ridiculous..
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2986 on: May 09, 2017, 10:37:56 AM »
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Brian claims that they had rubber bands on them, implying that three bundles were found. I think Carr gave an estimate vs what the bundles consisted of. something is obviously out of whack...a bundle of $500 would be hard to secure with a rubber band...that's only 25 bills.

This is why I keep saying that it appears nobody asked them the right questions. all this silence from these people is ridiculous..

I edited my last post... this may clear up the 35 bills

"I rechecked the article and it doesn't claim new bills found but new serial numbers identified.

So, you don't add them to the $5800 total. Bills may have been previously counted but serial numbers unidentified/obscured."
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2987 on: May 09, 2017, 10:39:41 AM »
additional numbers found are not on the original count, or they wouldn't be additional numbers found? if they were stuck together the FBI sure the hell didn't know they were there...

I don't think they examined them as good as they should have....
« Last Edit: May 09, 2017, 10:40:54 AM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2988 on: May 09, 2017, 10:43:55 AM »
They claimed the bills were in the original sequence, that means they looked at the serial number, and probably counted from that..
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2989 on: May 09, 2017, 10:51:50 AM »
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They claimed the bills were in the original sequence, that means they looked at the serial number, and probably counted from that..

Clearly, The sequence wouldn't be applied to every bill as they weren't all identified but to identified ones. so, sequence for the entire bundle was inferred

all the serial numbers for each bill were not identified.

so, the bill count was not = number of serial numbers identified.

you are conflating # of bills and number of serial numbers id'd, 35 new serial numbers id'd

Every bill counted was not id'd by serial number.


OR, it is all big conspiracy and there never was a NORJAK.







 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2990 on: May 09, 2017, 10:54:31 AM »
actually, I believe they stated that the bills were almost in the original order. this is probably due to the missing serial numbers...

Yes, I believe Norjack occurred..
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2991 on: May 09, 2017, 10:57:39 AM »
As I told Bob Knoss years ago. it would be much easier to stage the event for any given purpose, but they wouldn't leave so many loose ends. they could of invented a suspect, and caught him the next day. why leave this mess if it was to deceive?
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2992 on: May 09, 2017, 11:01:20 AM »
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As I told Bob Knoss years ago. it would be much easier to stage the event for any given purpose, but they wouldn't leave so many loose ends. they could of invented a suspect, and caught him the next day. why leave this mess if it was to deceive?

It is just the Cooper vortex, the closer you look the more questions arise. Should be less.
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2993 on: May 09, 2017, 11:25:03 AM »
I did find a published bill list from 1973, all the bill #'s are alpha-numerically sequential aka re-ordered. Not in bundled physical order.

Some of you touched on this in DZ... but didn't connectto TBAR regular bundles or resolve.

Georger's post..

"Or an unaccounted for $20 slipped through the cracks of the 
various accountings? 

Here is Tom's version "directly from 'the' FBI documents" he 
says:

So you don't waste any more time on this. Directly from the FBI 
documents: 

"Ransom money in the amount $200,000 was made up entirely of 
used, random 20 dollar bills. It was obtained from the 
Seattle-First National Bank, Main Office, and was part of a 
ransom package of 250,000, which had been maintained by the 
bank for such emergencies." 

"The entire list of the ransom bills had previously been 
microfilmed by the Seattle-First National Bank, and has now been 
incorporated in a 34 page pamphlet of ransom bills." 

Here is Larry's more detailed version:

"This is a big misunderstanding about the money, it all had to be 
manually scanned. Tellers had a bill list of all 10,000 20's and if 
someone came in with a boat load they would do a spot check 
to see if any of the serials poped up." ... and ...

"The money was provided by Seafirst bank which is now Bank of 
America. The money had been earmarked for situations such as 
these and was always on hand. It had been photographed and 
serial numbers recorded by their security so the FBI did none of 
this. 

The money was then transported by SeaFirst bank security to a 
Seattle police detective who then drove it to the airport and 
handed it over to NWA. The money was bundled in various 
counts so that no bundle was the same. Each bundle was 
secured by rubber band and different counts so that it appeared 
the money was hastily gathered." ... and

"I then went back and re-interviewed the bank security manager 
and found out that he wasn't directly involved in packaging the 
money, only carrying it to the airport. He was relaying what their 
normal procedure was for processing and packaging money for 
shipment. But the bank switched its procedure in this case.

The funds that were given to Cooper were not pulled from their 
circulating cash but from a security fund that was prepackaged 
for these types of incidents. This money was not strapped 
because the bank did not want any subjects to know where it 
came from so it was packaged with rubber bands. " ... and

"Everything was scanned into a microfiche as they assembled 
the bundles ..." .... and ...

"The money: The FBI does not provide funds for situations like 
these. In this case SeaFirst Bank loaned the money to NWA, who 
then repaid SeaFirst in the following days. NWA then submitted a 
claim to their insurance company, who fought it, but ended up 
paying the claim after a court battle. "

$$$,$$$.$$

The FBI was passive in this whole transaction. It was NWA who
received a "loan" and had to account for it. Apparently, from 
what Tom says, the loan was for $250,000 and it was NWA on 
the hook who then had to account for which bills were used and 
which were not used and were being returned to Sea-First ... 
with the FBI assisting in the accounting and verification?

This accounting had to agree with the claim NWA gave to its 
insurance agent.

The entire list of the ransom bills given to NWA had previously 
been microfilmed by the Seattle-First National Bank. As the 
money was placed into bundles at the bank a new microfiche 
was made of that list of bundles. The FBI was given a copy of 
the bank 'bundles' microfiche in a canister. (Was $250k put into 
bundles or just $200K? ) 

(the money was not micro'd 2x, the non DBC money was manually recorded, only top and bottom bill in bundle to deduct from original micro list, the original micro was given to FBI with all $250k of bills recorded)

Eventually the FBI compiled a SERIAL list of the bills it said had 
been part of the Cooper $200,000, probably using the bank 
microfiche of the new Cooper bundles. (Tom says: "has now 
been incorporated in a 34 page pamphlet of ransom bills.")

The FBI and at least two other entities would have had to have 
had copies of the Sea First 'bundles' microfiche. NWA, and the 
bank itself, and later NWA's insurance company and the Court!
That microfiche is evidence not just for the FBI and law 
enforcement but for NWA and the bank, and then the insurance 
company, and the Court - because this transaction went to trial
when the insurance company at first refused to pay!

So when Tom says the canister is lost ... what about the other 
copies and canisters or duplicate paper printouts et cetera? !

Tom few lines of "Directly from the FBI documents" merely 
scrapes the surface of this affair. Larry previously described it 
as "making my head spin". 

This is not to be critical of Tom. I am just saying there is 
more to this than a few lines conveys.

More than one player had copies of the bank's 'bundles 
microfiche' - in one form or another. That was mandatory for
a host of reasons. Once the matter went to Court, now more 
copies are required. So, the loss of one copy/canister cannot be 
all that crucial or if it is .... then we have a different kind of 
problem! All Tom encountered was a loss of the microfiche at 
one source only. 

The picture I have is the FBI was passive in this whole matter. 
They helped facilitate. The transaction was between Sea-First 
and NWA. Then handed off to the FBI to give to Cooper.

Had the FBI captured Cooper at length and then found its 
damned canister was missing, does anyone seriously think a 
duplicate copy of the microfiche could not have been produced
quickly? Guess again!

Everything is done in triplicate!

This isn't the corner grocery store losing it's broom. 

Lastly, what does RANDOM mean in this matter? Used $20s
stockpiled from countless sources ... did the bank actually
use a 'Linquist sorter' to sort the bills by serial number into
a trully random distribution. I doubt that. I think the word
random is relative in this case and the totality of socalled
'random' serial numbers comprising bundles, would not be quite
as random as one thinks, especially if no real effort was made to 
randomise; like using Linguist's random sorting machine. . .
which incidently casinos in LasVegas refused to use, because
a casino depends on a non-random predictable distribution of 
cards etc... a distribution skewed in favor of, the house."
« Last Edit: May 09, 2017, 12:36:41 PM by FLYJACK »
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2994 on: May 09, 2017, 03:18:38 PM »
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I did find a published bill list from 1973, all the bill #'s are alpha-numerically sequential aka re-ordered. Not in bundled physical order.

Some of you touched on this in DZ... but didn't connectto TBAR regular bundles or resolve.

Georger's post..

"Or an unaccounted for $20 slipped through the cracks of the 
various accountings? 

Here is Tom's version "directly from 'the' FBI documents" he 
says:

So you don't waste any more time on this. Directly from the FBI 
documents: 

"Ransom money in the amount $200,000 was made up entirely of 
used, random 20 dollar bills. It was obtained from the 
Seattle-First National Bank, Main Office, and was part of a 
ransom package of 250,000, which had been maintained by the 
bank for such emergencies." 

"The entire list of the ransom bills had previously been 
microfilmed by the Seattle-First National Bank, and has now been 
incorporated in a 34 page pamphlet of ransom bills." 

Here is Larry's more detailed version:

"This is a big misunderstanding about the money, it all had to be 
manually scanned. Tellers had a bill list of all 10,000 20's and if 
someone came in with a boat load they would do a spot check 
to see if any of the serials poped up." ... and ...

"The money was provided by Seafirst bank which is now Bank of 
America. The money had been earmarked for situations such as 
these and was always on hand. It had been photographed and 
serial numbers recorded by their security so the FBI did none of 
this. 

The money was then transported by SeaFirst bank security to a 
Seattle police detective who then drove it to the airport and 
handed it over to NWA. The money was bundled in various 
counts so that no bundle was the same. Each bundle was 
secured by rubber band and different counts so that it appeared 
the money was hastily gathered." ... and

"I then went back and re-interviewed the bank security manager 
and found out that he wasn't directly involved in packaging the 
money, only carrying it to the airport. He was relaying what their 
normal procedure was for processing and packaging money for 
shipment. But the bank switched its procedure in this case.

The funds that were given to Cooper were not pulled from their 
circulating cash but from a security fund that was prepackaged 
for these types of incidents. This money was not strapped 
because the bank did not want any subjects to know where it 
came from so it was packaged with rubber bands. " ... and

"Everything was scanned into a microfiche as they assembled 
the bundles ..." .... and ...

"The money: The FBI does not provide funds for situations like 
these. In this case SeaFirst Bank loaned the money to NWA, who 
then repaid SeaFirst in the following days. NWA then submitted a 
claim to their insurance company, who fought it, but ended up 
paying the claim after a court battle. "

$$$,$$$.$$

The FBI was passive in this whole transaction. It was NWA who
received a "loan" and had to account for it. Apparently, from 
what Tom says, the loan was for $250,000 and it was NWA on 
the hook who then had to account for which bills were used and 
which were not used and were being returned to Sea-First ... 
with the FBI assisting in the accounting and verification?

This accounting had to agree with the claim NWA gave to its 
insurance agent.

The entire list of the ransom bills given to NWA had previously 
been microfilmed by the Seattle-First National Bank. As the 
money was placed into bundles at the bank a new microfiche 
was made of that list of bundles. The FBI was given a copy of 
the bank 'bundles' microfiche in a canister. (Was $250k put into 
bundles or just $200K? ) 

(the money was not micro'd 2x, the non DBC money was manually recorded, only top and bottom bill in bundle to deduct from original micro list, the original micro was given to FBI with all $250k of bills recorded)

Eventually the FBI compiled a SERIAL list of the bills it said had 
been part of the Cooper $200,000, probably using the bank 
microfiche of the new Cooper bundles. (Tom says: "has now 
been incorporated in a 34 page pamphlet of ransom bills.")

The FBI and at least two other entities would have had to have 
had copies of the Sea First 'bundles' microfiche. NWA, and the 
bank itself, and later NWA's insurance company and the Court!
That microfiche is evidence not just for the FBI and law 
enforcement but for NWA and the bank, and then the insurance 
company, and the Court - because this transaction went to trial
when the insurance company at first refused to pay!

So when Tom says the canister is lost ... what about the other 
copies and canisters or duplicate paper printouts et cetera? !

Tom few lines of "Directly from the FBI documents" merely 
scrapes the surface of this affair. Larry previously described it 
as "making my head spin". 

This is not to be critical of Tom. I am just saying there is 
more to this than a few lines conveys.

More than one player had copies of the bank's 'bundles 
microfiche' - in one form or another. That was mandatory for
a host of reasons. Once the matter went to Court, now more 
copies are required. So, the loss of one copy/canister cannot be 
all that crucial or if it is .... then we have a different kind of 
problem! All Tom encountered was a loss of the microfiche at 
one source only. 

The picture I have is the FBI was passive in this whole matter. 
They helped facilitate. The transaction was between Sea-First 
and NWA. Then handed off to the FBI to give to Cooper.

Had the FBI captured Cooper at length and then found its 
damned canister was missing, does anyone seriously think a 
duplicate copy of the microfiche could not have been produced
quickly? Guess again!

Everything is done in triplicate!

This isn't the corner grocery store losing it's broom. 

Lastly, what does RANDOM mean in this matter? Used $20s
stockpiled from countless sources ... did the bank actually
use a 'Linquist sorter' to sort the bills by serial number into
a trully random distribution. I doubt that. I think the word
random is relative in this case and the totality of socalled
'random' serial numbers comprising bundles, would not be quite
as random as one thinks, especially if no real effort was made to 
randomise; like using Linguist's random sorting machine. . .
which incidently casinos in LasVegas refused to use, because
a casino depends on a non-random predictable distribution of 
cards etc... a distribution skewed in favor of, the house."

wow! It returns to haunt me.  :))  I wrote the above as an attempt at a summary at the time. People were struggling to reconstruct the history of who recorded what and how. The general discussion of how $250k of the bank's money was recorded and wound up in various lists composed by order of Hoover in the FBI ... can be found between here You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login  and here  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login it goes on for pages.

Covered in these posts is how the FBI was able to determine the Ingram find serial numbers matched the FBI's list.

People who did extensive work on this subject were: Kaye but he didn't participate in the discussion, Gray no posts at all, testxyz whose work at DZ was very good, Smokin99, Shutter, and others. Others using and examining the Bank's $250k money list (a film in a canister) and the FBI's $200k NOJAK money list would have included the Courts, attornies, NWA vs Insurance Co., Tosaw vs NWA/Insurance Co. in behalf of the Ingrams, and various other interested parties of which there were many. The serial numbers given to Cooper ($200k) vs. the Ingram serial numbers, very likely was compared by a number of people for various reasons and so far as I can tell nobody detected a discrepancy between these lists during that period of time? So far as I know the issue has never come up before. The basic list of serial numbers given to Cooper was assumed to be settled doctrine long before the Ingram find. The pamphlet of those serial numbers the FBI prepared for its internal use would have been the 'list' RH and others used to compare the Ingram serial numbers with. One of Testxyz's posts at DZ tried to clarify that issue specifically back in 2013.

... to be continued ...
   

   
« Last Edit: May 09, 2017, 03:27:34 PM by georger »
 

georger

  • Guest
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2995 on: May 09, 2017, 03:19:34 PM »
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I did find a published bill list from 1973, all the bill #'s are alpha-numerically sequential aka re-ordered. Not in bundled physical order.

Some of you touched on this in DZ... but didn't connectto TBAR regular bundles or resolve.

Georger's post..

"Or an unaccounted for $20 slipped through the cracks of the 
various accountings? 

Here is Tom's version "directly from 'the' FBI documents" he 
says:

So you don't waste any more time on this. Directly from the FBI 
documents: 

"Ransom money in the amount $200,000 was made up entirely of 
used, random 20 dollar bills. It was obtained from the 
Seattle-First National Bank, Main Office, and was part of a 
ransom package of 250,000, which had been maintained by the 
bank for such emergencies." 

"The entire list of the ransom bills had previously been 
microfilmed by the Seattle-First National Bank, and has now been 
incorporated in a 34 page pamphlet of ransom bills." 

Here is Larry's more detailed version:

"This is a big misunderstanding about the money, it all had to be 
manually scanned. Tellers had a bill list of all 10,000 20's and if 
someone came in with a boat load they would do a spot check 
to see if any of the serials poped up." ... and ...

"The money was provided by Seafirst bank which is now Bank of 
America. The money had been earmarked for situations such as 
these and was always on hand. It had been photographed and 
serial numbers recorded by their security so the FBI did none of 
this. 

The money was then transported by SeaFirst bank security to a 
Seattle police detective who then drove it to the airport and 
handed it over to NWA. The money was bundled in various 
counts so that no bundle was the same. Each bundle was 
secured by rubber band and different counts so that it appeared 
the money was hastily gathered." ... and

"I then went back and re-interviewed the bank security manager 
and found out that he wasn't directly involved in packaging the 
money, only carrying it to the airport. He was relaying what their 
normal procedure was for processing and packaging money for 
shipment. But the bank switched its procedure in this case.

The funds that were given to Cooper were not pulled from their 
circulating cash but from a security fund that was prepackaged 
for these types of incidents. This money was not strapped 
because the bank did not want any subjects to know where it 
came from so it was packaged with rubber bands. " ... and

"Everything was scanned into a microfiche as they assembled 
the bundles ..." .... and ...

"The money: The FBI does not provide funds for situations like 
these. In this case SeaFirst Bank loaned the money to NWA, who 
then repaid SeaFirst in the following days. NWA then submitted a 
claim to their insurance company, who fought it, but ended up 
paying the claim after a court battle. "

$$$,$$$.$$

The FBI was passive in this whole transaction. It was NWA who
received a "loan" and had to account for it. Apparently, from 
what Tom says, the loan was for $250,000 and it was NWA on 
the hook who then had to account for which bills were used and 
which were not used and were being returned to Sea-First ... 
with the FBI assisting in the accounting and verification?

This accounting had to agree with the claim NWA gave to its 
insurance agent.

The entire list of the ransom bills given to NWA had previously 
been microfilmed by the Seattle-First National Bank. As the 
money was placed into bundles at the bank a new microfiche 
was made of that list of bundles. The FBI was given a copy of 
the bank 'bundles' microfiche in a canister. (Was $250k put into 
bundles or just $200K? ) 

(the money was not micro'd 2x, the non DBC money was manually recorded, only top and bottom bill in bundle to deduct from original micro list, the original micro was given to FBI with all $250k of bills recorded)

Eventually the FBI compiled a SERIAL list of the bills it said had 
been part of the Cooper $200,000, probably using the bank 
microfiche of the new Cooper bundles. (Tom says: "has now 
been incorporated in a 34 page pamphlet of ransom bills.")

The FBI and at least two other entities would have had to have 
had copies of the Sea First 'bundles' microfiche. NWA, and the 
bank itself, and later NWA's insurance company and the Court!
That microfiche is evidence not just for the FBI and law 
enforcement but for NWA and the bank, and then the insurance 
company, and the Court - because this transaction went to trial
when the insurance company at first refused to pay!

So when Tom says the canister is lost ... what about the other 
copies and canisters or duplicate paper printouts et cetera? !

Tom few lines of "Directly from the FBI documents" merely 
scrapes the surface of this affair. Larry previously described it 
as "making my head spin". 

This is not to be critical of Tom. I am just saying there is 
more to this than a few lines conveys.

More than one player had copies of the bank's 'bundles 
microfiche' - in one form or another. That was mandatory for
a host of reasons. Once the matter went to Court, now more 
copies are required. So, the loss of one copy/canister cannot be 
all that crucial or if it is .... then we have a different kind of 
problem! All Tom encountered was a loss of the microfiche at 
one source only. 

The picture I have is the FBI was passive in this whole matter. 
They helped facilitate. The transaction was between Sea-First 
and NWA. Then handed off to the FBI to give to Cooper.

Had the FBI captured Cooper at length and then found its 
damned canister was missing, does anyone seriously think a 
duplicate copy of the microfiche could not have been produced
quickly? Guess again!

Everything is done in triplicate!

This isn't the corner grocery store losing it's broom. 

Lastly, what does RANDOM mean in this matter? Used $20s
stockpiled from countless sources ... did the bank actually
use a 'Linquist sorter' to sort the bills by serial number into
a trully random distribution. I doubt that. I think the word
random is relative in this case and the totality of socalled
'random' serial numbers comprising bundles, would not be quite
as random as one thinks, especially if no real effort was made to 
randomise; like using Linguist's random sorting machine. . .
which incidently casinos in LasVegas refused to use, because
a casino depends on a non-random predictable distribution of 
cards etc... a distribution skewed in favor of, the house."

wow! It returns to haunt me.  :))  I wrote this as an attempt at a summary at the time. People were struggling to reconstruct the history of who recorded what and how. The general discussion of how $250k of the bank's money was recorded and wound up in various lists composed by order of Hoover in the FBI ... can be found between here You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login  and here  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login it goes on for pages.

Covered in these posts is how the FBI was able to determine the Ingram find serial numbers matched the FBI's list.

People who did extensive work on this subject were: Kaye but he didn't participate in the discussion, Gray no posts at all, testxyz whose work at DZ was very good, Smokin99, Shutter, and others. Others using and examining the Bank's $250k money list (a film in a canister) and the FBI's $200k NOJAK money list would have been the Courts, NWA vs Insurance Co., Tosaw vs NWA/Insurance Co. in behalf of the Ingrams, and various other interested parties. The serial numbers given to Cooper ($200k) vs. the Ingram serial numbers, very likely was compared by a number of people for various reasons and so far as I can tell nobody detected a discrepancy during that period of time? So far as I know the issue has never come up before. The basic list of serial numbers given to Cooper was settled doctrine long before the Ingram find. The pamphlet of those serial numbers the FBI prepared for its internal use would have been the 'list' RH and others used to compare the Ingram bills with. Testxyz tried to clarify that issue specifically back in 2013.

   

 

next pic
 

georger

  • Guest
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2996 on: May 09, 2017, 03:34:01 PM »
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As I told Bob Knoss years ago. it would be much easier to stage the event for any given purpose, but they wouldn't leave so many loose ends. they could of invented a suspect, and caught him the next day. why leave this mess if it was to deceive?

It is just the Cooper vortex, the closer you look the more questions arise. Should be less.

I have a feeling Tom Kaye would have a 'very strong' opinion about all of this, whether the Ingram find represents money not originally on the Cooper NORJAK list but some other bank money never included by the FBI in its NORJAK list?

Maybe Tom can be convinced to come here and comment about this?   
 

FLYJACK

  • Guest
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2997 on: May 09, 2017, 04:29:13 PM »
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You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
As I told Bob Knoss years ago. it would be much easier to stage the event for any given purpose, but they wouldn't leave so many loose ends. they could of invented a suspect, and caught him the next day. why leave this mess if it was to deceive?

It is just the Cooper vortex, the closer you look the more questions arise. Should be less.

I have a feeling Tom Kaye would have a 'very strong' opinion about all of this, whether the Ingram find represents money not originally on the Cooper NORJAK list but some other bank money never included by the FBI in its NORJAK list?

Maybe Tom can be convinced to come here and comment about this?   

The issue as I see it, the TBAR money matched the list but the integrity of the list is unverifiable.

The TBAR money appears to in be regular bundles of 100 count.
The $250k bank stash was in regular bundles with randomly ordered bill numbers, sequentially photo'd and put on micro by the Bank people prior to NORJAK, not by the FBI.
$200k was taken for DBC and bundles made irregular, corrupting the sequence.
$30k in $20's of the remainder non DBC cash was recorded, just the top and bottom serial number of 15 regular bundles of 100. (where did the non DBC $50k go? back into a Bank emergency ransom stash or to NWA? were there any other ransoms paid between 1971 and 1980?)
The Bank delivered the Micro with all $250k bills photo'd in physical sequence. ($20k in $10's)
They amended the list by removing the 1500 non-DBC $20 bills, but they used only the recorded top and bottom bill selected in the sequence, removed them and the 98 between x 15 bundles. (Sketchy)

At some point later, they published an amended list which was rearranged in alpha numeric.


But, the integrity of the list vs actual DBC money can't be verified and may be compromised at several points..

We can't confirm that the original Photo/Micro done by the Bank prior to NORJAK was correct.
That they grabbed the correct bundles vs the micro list delivered to FBI.
That they deducted the correct 1500 non DBC serial numbered $20's. They didn't use 1500 individual numbers but ranges of non-sequentially numbered bills from noting the top and bottom bill in the 15 non-DBC bundles.

If corrupted, the FBI list of 10,000 bills may have included non DBC bills and excluded some DBC bills.

But, if the bill list was all edited accurate to DBC delivered cash, how did TBAR money get in regular bundles of 100's and in order?
« Last Edit: May 09, 2017, 04:33:44 PM by FLYJACK »
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2998 on: May 09, 2017, 05:42:24 PM »
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As I told Bob Knoss years ago. it would be much easier to stage the event for any given purpose, but they wouldn't leave so many loose ends. they could of invented a suspect, and caught him the next day. why leave this mess if it was to deceive?

It is just the Cooper vortex, the closer you look the more questions arise. Should be less.

I have a feeling Tom Kaye would have a 'very strong' opinion about all of this, whether the Ingram find represents money not originally on the Cooper NORJAK list but some other bank money never included by the FBI in its NORJAK list?

Maybe Tom can be convinced to come here and comment about this?   

The issue as I see it, the TBAR money matched the list but the integrity of the list is unverifiable.

The TBAR money appears to in be regular bundles of 100 count.
The $250k bank stash was in regular bundles with randomly ordered bill numbers, sequentially photo'd and put on micro by the Bank people prior to NORJAK, not by the FBI.
$200k was taken for DBC and bundles made irregular, corrupting the sequence.
$30k in $20's of the remainder non DBC cash was recorded, just the top and bottom serial number of 15 regular bundles of 100. (where did the non DBC $50k go? back into a Bank emergency ransom stash or to NWA? were there any other ransoms paid between 1971 and 1980?)
The Bank delivered the Micro with all $250k bills photo'd in physical sequence. ($20k in $10's)
They amended the list by removing the 1500 non-DBC $20 bills, but they used only the recorded top and bottom bill selected in the sequence, removed them and the 98 between x 15 bundles. (Sketchy)

At some point later, they published an amended list which was rearranged in alpha numeric.


But, the integrity of the list vs actual DBC money can't be verified and may be compromised at several points..

We can't confirm that the original Photo/Micro done by the Bank prior to NORJAK was correct.
That they grabbed the correct bundles vs the micro list delivered to FBI.
That they deducted the correct 1500 non DBC serial numbered $20's. They didn't use 1500 individual numbers but ranges of non-sequentially numbered bills from noting the top and bottom bill in the 15 non-DBC bundles.

If corrupted, the FBI list of 10,000 bills may have included non DBC bills and excluded some DBC bills.

But, if the bill list was all edited accurate to DBC delivered cash, how did TBAR money get in regular bundles of 100's and in order?

'The issue as I see it, the TBAR money matched the list but the integrity of the list is unverifiable.'

Unverifiable is the word and true, so it appears. Plus the original canister is lost? That is hard to believe given all of the players that had a reason to have a copy of that film, NWA for one. Attornies. Insurance people.  ... the saga continues.   

 

FLYJACK

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2999 on: May 09, 2017, 06:15:52 PM »
anybody recall any other unrecovered ransom payouts in the PNW between 1971-1980
« Last Edit: May 09, 2017, 06:16:36 PM by FLYJACK »