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Robert99 wrote,,

FLYJACK,

Do banks in Canada always use paper bands?  In my judgment, Tina was just saying that the bills were in bundles were held together by heavy duty rubber bands typical of what she had seen in banks in the USA.

You might be right, TINA may have meant the heavy duty wide bands, we don't know Kaye didn't use the wide style rubber bands. And banks always use their bands in denominated bundles. Just not convinced yet..

Quote

And it is absolutely NOT true that "banks always use denomination marked bands on counted bundles" in the USA.  New bills received direct from the Federal Reserve, or wherever they come from, may have paper bands.  But those paper bands come off as the bills are put into use, and while paper bands may be put on bills that have been in circulation, the bands do not necessarily include the information you specified.

Yes, they do if the bundles are counted, they are banded with count. Circulated or not. New Fed Reserve bundles have their unique band. Standard bank practice. Without them would be an exception. In large sums like $250,000 they need to be able to count the money by bundles, now it is possible they were removed for some reason.

Quote

Cooper's original statement about money was dictated to Florence [see page 23, FBI File SE-164-81] and specified that he wanted $200,000 "in cash".  He did not specify a denomination or even that it was to be "American money".

There is another more detailed thread on this, your statement is correct, but out of context. The pilots used the term US/American currency long before the destination Mexico City was ever mentioned. They are American why would they use it. But, this from FBI files "He later told TINA that he wanted $200,000 in circulated U.S. currency, two back and two front parachutes, and fuel trucks to meet the plane when it landed at Seattle." Beyond the original note he was communicating with the pilots verbally via TINA. Using "US/American currency" is consistent with a foreigner, doesn't mean he has to be but it is supportive.

Quote

Due to some previous ransom type situations, the FBI in Seattle had arranged for a local bank to have a "fund" of money set aside that was limited to three yearly "series" with the bill serial numbers recorded on microfilm in order to simplify tracing it.  When the airliner was hijacked, the bank and the FBI then bundled up the $200,000 in irregular size bundles so that the hijacker would think the bills were untraceable.  Everyone involved in the operation said the bundles used rubber bands, and not paper bands, in order not to tip off the hijacker that ever bill he had was traceable.

Now this is fascinating, the Banks had $250,000 set aside in case of these situations They had pre-recorded all serial numbers sequentially on micro. Gave DBC $200,000 and separating the $50,000. To account for the removed bills, they recorded the bill numbers for the $20 packs from the top and bottom of each bundle or 100 bills/pack = ($2000). Only $30k of the non-DBC bundles were $20's. So, they were in 100 bill bundles of $2000. They apparently went back to the micro data and removed the sequences of 100 for each bundle that had been left making up the $30,000 or 15 bundles to create a new DBC bill list. Seems like room for error there. Now, I have read the claims that the DBC bundles were irregular sizes but haven't confirmed that. Not claiming the sizes weren't altered, just haven't come across it yet. The TBAR money was 3 bundles plus some missing/spoilage/frags = $5800 that suggest regular sized bundles aka 100 x $20 bills =$2000 each. Something is inconsistent.

The original $230,000 ($20's) was in 100x$20x115 =200k plus 30k remainder
The TBAR money suggests it was in 100x$20x3 bundles=$5800 plus spoilage/frags =$6000

Was the DBC money irregularly bundled?, if so the bank denomination bands would have been removed, but if not then TINA might have been correct.

And it is technically possible that they messed up the deduction of the $20 bill numbers from the microfile data and the DBC bill list is wrong. There is no way to track and confirm their work. Deducting bill #'s sounds really sketchy.

Was the DBC money irregularly bundled?, if so the bank denomination bands would have been removed

If  you mean irregular amounts in each bundle then Yes. READ THE THREAD.

Each bill was photographed & serial number recorded at the bank then the bills were assembled into bundles by one guy who wrapped each bundle with several rubber bands. This is how the Ingram bills were compared to the original list and found to be in the same order as when Cooper received the money.     

I never said there weren't rubber bands, I believe there were but where does.. wrapped with multiple rubber bands come from? If that was during recording then the bundles were regular.

and, I outlined the bill list process in my post above which exposed issues.

The recorded bills totalled $250k on micro, there ended up being $30k in 20's not given to DBC, they manually recorded the top and bottom bill's serial number of those 15 bundles to then deduct them and the random numbers in between from the DBC money and create a "revised" bill list. Bill serial numbers were random.

That means the $20's were in regular bundles of 100 after they were recorded. The Ingram find also appeared to be in 3x regular bundles of 100. Where does the irregular bundles come from?

If the bundles were made irregular it means the bundles were unwrapped and rewrapped after they were initially recorded and wrapped. <<<I am looking for source for this claim

and the process of recording a top number and bottom number in 15 stacks of 100 random $20 bills then deducting from the micro to create a DBC is theoretically sound but uncheckable and potentially a source of error.

Anybody see this point..

all Bank emergency stashed bundles = $250k recorded on Micro then wrapped with at least rubber bands
the $20 bills made up $230k of that $250k (the rest was $10's)
$200k of $20's taken to DBC
$30k of $20's left, top and bottom bill number of regular bundles recorded, 15 bundles of 100 count $20 bills = regular bundles
those $30k of randomly numbered $20's in bundles of 100 were deducted from the original micro list as they were NOT given to DBC
Ingram's find appears to be 3x 100 count of $20's = regular bundles with rubber bands


So, the original sequentially photographed randomly numbered bill list on micro included 15 regular bundles of 100x $20's that DBC never received. The process of deducting them from the list is uncheckable, very sketchy and opens up the theoretical possibility that the Ingram money wasn't from the $200k Cooper money but the other $30k. I don't actually believe that but there is a theoretical path and I am trying to make a point. Recorded money was in regular bundles 100x$20 (excluding the $10's), Cooper money was claimed irregular but Ingram money appeared to be regular. Something isn't clear here.

FLYJACK,

Where does your $250,000 number come from?  There is absolutely nothing to support your idea that such an amount ever left the bank or was received by NWA.

All of the people involved in getting the money to NWA says it was $200,000 that left the bank and that NWA signed for.  I believed NWA's insurance company reimbursed them for $180,000 of that amount.  The remaining $20,000 (or 10 percent of the total) was the deductible under the insurance policy.

It is in the FBI files,

I never said $250k left the bank, the $200k for DBC came from a designated stack of $250k that was photographed to create the bill list.

$250,000 was kept aside by the banks in case of any ransom situation, that entire amount (230k in 20's and 20k in 10's) was sequentially photographed and on micro prior to NORJAK, it was in regular bundles of 100's for the 20's. $200k was taken from that and given to DBC, so the recorded micro had photographs of all bills including the ones DBC never received. To create an accurate bill list they needed to deduct from the list the $30k of $20 bills DBC didn't receive..

everybody with me..

This gets sketchy, they took the remaining $30k in 20's which was in 15 regular bundles of 100 random bills, noted the top and bottom bill then compared to the photographed micro list and removed the bill's in between the noted number's to establish a revised bill list. That would be 1500 $20 bills that were to be removed from the list. We assume they did this correctly but have no way to check. If they made an error then the list would include bill's randomly numbered recorded in physical sequence that were not given to DBC.

The bundles were regular when initially photographed, micro'd and wrapped, the Ingram money appeared to be regular. Where did the irregular claim come from, source.

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Quote

Robert99 wrote,,

FLYJACK,

Do banks in Canada always use paper bands?  In my judgment, Tina was just saying that the bills were in bundles were held together by heavy duty rubber bands typical of what she had seen in banks in the USA.

You might be right, TINA may have meant the heavy duty wide bands, we don't know Kaye didn't use the wide style rubber bands. And banks always use their bands in denominated bundles. Just not convinced yet..

Quote

And it is absolutely NOT true that "banks always use denomination marked bands on counted bundles" in the USA.  New bills received direct from the Federal Reserve, or wherever they come from, may have paper bands.  But those paper bands come off as the bills are put into use, and while paper bands may be put on bills that have been in circulation, the bands do not necessarily include the information you specified.

Yes, they do if the bundles are counted, they are banded with count. Circulated or not. New Fed Reserve bundles have their unique band. Standard bank practice. Without them would be an exception. In large sums like $250,000 they need to be able to count the money by bundles, now it is possible they were removed for some reason.

Quote

Cooper's original statement about money was dictated to Florence [see page 23, FBI File SE-164-81] and specified that he wanted $200,000 "in cash".  He did not specify a denomination or even that it was to be "American money".

There is another more detailed thread on this, your statement is correct, but out of context. The pilots used the term US/American currency long before the destination Mexico City was ever mentioned. They are American why would they use it. But, this from FBI files "He later told TINA that he wanted $200,000 in circulated U.S. currency, two back and two front parachutes, and fuel trucks to meet the plane when it landed at Seattle." Beyond the original note he was communicating with the pilots verbally via TINA. Using "US/American currency" is consistent with a foreigner, doesn't mean he has to be but it is supportive.

Quote

Due to some previous ransom type situations, the FBI in Seattle had arranged for a local bank to have a "fund" of money set aside that was limited to three yearly "series" with the bill serial numbers recorded on microfilm in order to simplify tracing it.  When the airliner was hijacked, the bank and the FBI then bundled up the $200,000 in irregular size bundles so that the hijacker would think the bills were untraceable.  Everyone involved in the operation said the bundles used rubber bands, and not paper bands, in order not to tip off the hijacker that ever bill he had was traceable.

Now this is fascinating, the Banks had $250,000 set aside in case of these situations They had pre-recorded all serial numbers sequentially on micro. Gave DBC $200,000 and separating the $50,000. To account for the removed bills, they recorded the bill numbers for the $20 packs from the top and bottom of each bundle or 100 bills/pack = ($2000). Only $30k of the non-DBC bundles were $20's. So, they were in 100 bill bundles of $2000. They apparently went back to the micro data and removed the sequences of 100 for each bundle that had been left making up the $30,000 or 15 bundles to create a new DBC bill list. Seems like room for error there. Now, I have read the claims that the DBC bundles were irregular sizes but haven't confirmed that. Not claiming the sizes weren't altered, just haven't come across it yet. The TBAR money was 3 bundles plus some missing/spoilage/frags = $5800 that suggest regular sized bundles aka 100 x $20 bills =$2000 each. Something is inconsistent.

The original $230,000 ($20's) was in 100x$20x115 =200k plus 30k remainder
The TBAR money suggests it was in 100x$20x3 bundles=$5800 plus spoilage/frags =$6000

Was the DBC money irregularly bundled?, if so the bank denomination bands would have been removed, but if not then TINA might have been correct.

And it is technically possible that they messed up the deduction of the $20 bill numbers from the microfile data and the DBC bill list is wrong. There is no way to track and confirm their work. Deducting bill #'s sounds really sketchy.

Was the DBC money irregularly bundled?, if so the bank denomination bands would have been removed

If  you mean irregular amounts in each bundle then Yes. READ THE THREAD.

Each bill was photographed & serial number recorded at the bank then the bills were assembled into bundles by one guy who wrapped each bundle with several rubber bands. This is how the Ingram bills were compared to the original list and found to be in the same order as when Cooper received the money.     

I never said there weren't rubber bands, I believe there were but where does.. wrapped with multiple rubber bands come from? If that was during recording then the bundles were regular.

and, I outlined the bill list process in my post above which exposed issues.

The recorded bills totalled $250k on micro, there ended up being $30k in 20's not given to DBC, they manually recorded the top and bottom bill's serial number of those 15 bundles to then deduct them and the random numbers in between from the DBC money and create a "revised" bill list. Bill serial numbers were random.

That means the $20's were in regular bundles of 100 after they were recorded. The Ingram find also appeared to be in 3x regular bundles of 100. Where does the irregular bundles come from?

If the bundles were made irregular it means the bundles were unwrapped and rewrapped after they were initially recorded and wrapped. <<<I am looking for source for this claim

and the process of recording a top number and bottom number in 15 stacks of 100 random $20 bills then deducting from the micro to create a DBC is theoretically sound but uncheckable and potentially a source of error.

Anybody see this point..

all Bank emergency stashed bundles = $250k recorded on Micro then wrapped with at least rubber bands
the $20 bills made up $230k of that $250k (the rest was $10's)
$200k of $20's taken to DBC
$30k of $20's left, top and bottom bill number of regular bundles recorded, 15 bundles of 100 count $20 bills = regular bundles
those $30k of randomly numbered $20's in bundles of 100 were deducted from the original micro list as they were NOT given to DBC
Ingram's find appears to be 3x 100 count of $20's = regular bundles with rubber bands


So, the original sequentially photographed randomly numbered bill list on micro included 15 regular bundles of 100x $20's that DBC never received. The process of deducting them from the list is uncheckable, very sketchy and opens up the theoretical possibility that the Ingram money wasn't from the $200k Cooper money but the other $30k. I don't actually believe that but there is a theoretical path and I am trying to make a point. Recorded money was in regular bundles 100x$20 (excluding the $10's), Cooper money was claimed irregular but Ingram money appeared to be regular. Something isn't clear here.

FLYJACK,

Where does your $250,000 number come from?  There is absolutely nothing to support your idea that such an amount ever left the bank or was received by NWA.

All of the people involved in getting the money to NWA says it was $200,000 that left the bank and that NWA signed for.  I believed NWA's insurance company reimbursed them for $180,000 of that amount.  The remaining $20,000 (or 10 percent of the total) was the deductible under the insurance policy.

It is in the FBI files,

I never said $250k left the bank, the $200k for DBC came from a designated stack of $250k that was photographed to create the bill list.

$250,000 was kept aside by the banks in case of any ransom situation, that entire amount (230k in 20's and 20k in 10's) was sequentially photographed and on micro prior to NORJAK, it was in regular bundles of 100's for the 20's. $200k was taken from that and given to DBC, so the recorded micro had photographs of all bills including the ones DBC never received. To create an accurate bill list they needed to deduct from the list the $30k of $20 bills DBC didn't receive..

everybody with me..

This gets sketchy, they took the remaining $30k in 20's which was in 15 regular bundles of 100 random bills, noted the top and bottom bill then compared to the photographed micro list and removed the bill's in between the noted number's to establish a revised bill list. That would be 1500 $20 bills that were to be removed from the list. We assume they did this correctly but have no way to check. If they made an error then the list would include bill's randomly numbered recorded in physical sequence that were not given to DBC.

The bundles were regular when initially photographed, micro'd and wrapped, the Ingram money appeared to be regular. Where did the irregular claim come from, source.

You say "It is in the FBI files,"

Show us. Print the passage(s) here so we can read for ourselves what you are claiming.

Like R99 I have the feeling you are misinterpreting something, maybe the "FBI files" you now refer to. At least tell us where to access these files to see them for ourselves. That is standard practice here. A url would work.

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Quote

Robert99 wrote,,

FLYJACK,

Do banks in Canada always use paper bands?  In my judgment, Tina was just saying that the bills were in bundles were held together by heavy duty rubber bands typical of what she had seen in banks in the USA.

You might be right, TINA may have meant the heavy duty wide bands, we don't know Kaye didn't use the wide style rubber bands. And banks always use their bands in denominated bundles. Just not convinced yet..

Quote

And it is absolutely NOT true that "banks always use denomination marked bands on counted bundles" in the USA.  New bills received direct from the Federal Reserve, or wherever they come from, may have paper bands.  But those paper bands come off as the bills are put into use, and while paper bands may be put on bills that have been in circulation, the bands do not necessarily include the information you specified.

Yes, they do if the bundles are counted, they are banded with count. Circulated or not. New Fed Reserve bundles have their unique band. Standard bank practice. Without them would be an exception. In large sums like $250,000 they need to be able to count the money by bundles, now it is possible they were removed for some reason.

Quote

Cooper's original statement about money was dictated to Florence [see page 23, FBI File SE-164-81] and specified that he wanted $200,000 "in cash".  He did not specify a denomination or even that it was to be "American money".

There is another more detailed thread on this, your statement is correct, but out of context. The pilots used the term US/American currency long before the destination Mexico City was ever mentioned. They are American why would they use it. But, this from FBI files "He later told TINA that he wanted $200,000 in circulated U.S. currency, two back and two front parachutes, and fuel trucks to meet the plane when it landed at Seattle." Beyond the original note he was communicating with the pilots verbally via TINA. Using "US/American currency" is consistent with a foreigner, doesn't mean he has to be but it is supportive.

Quote

Due to some previous ransom type situations, the FBI in Seattle had arranged for a local bank to have a "fund" of money set aside that was limited to three yearly "series" with the bill serial numbers recorded on microfilm in order to simplify tracing it.  When the airliner was hijacked, the bank and the FBI then bundled up the $200,000 in irregular size bundles so that the hijacker would think the bills were untraceable.  Everyone involved in the operation said the bundles used rubber bands, and not paper bands, in order not to tip off the hijacker that ever bill he had was traceable.

Now this is fascinating, the Banks had $250,000 set aside in case of these situations They had pre-recorded all serial numbers sequentially on micro. Gave DBC $200,000 and separating the $50,000. To account for the removed bills, they recorded the bill numbers for the $20 packs from the top and bottom of each bundle or 100 bills/pack = ($2000). Only $30k of the non-DBC bundles were $20's. So, they were in 100 bill bundles of $2000. They apparently went back to the micro data and removed the sequences of 100 for each bundle that had been left making up the $30,000 or 15 bundles to create a new DBC bill list. Seems like room for error there. Now, I have read the claims that the DBC bundles were irregular sizes but haven't confirmed that. Not claiming the sizes weren't altered, just haven't come across it yet. The TBAR money was 3 bundles plus some missing/spoilage/frags = $5800 that suggest regular sized bundles aka 100 x $20 bills =$2000 each. Something is inconsistent.

The original $230,000 ($20's) was in 100x$20x115 =200k plus 30k remainder
The TBAR money suggests it was in 100x$20x3 bundles=$5800 plus spoilage/frags =$6000

Was the DBC money irregularly bundled?, if so the bank denomination bands would have been removed, but if not then TINA might have been correct.

And it is technically possible that they messed up the deduction of the $20 bill numbers from the microfile data and the DBC bill list is wrong. There is no way to track and confirm their work. Deducting bill #'s sounds really sketchy.

Was the DBC money irregularly bundled?, if so the bank denomination bands would have been removed

If  you mean irregular amounts in each bundle then Yes. READ THE THREAD.

Each bill was photographed & serial number recorded at the bank then the bills were assembled into bundles by one guy who wrapped each bundle with several rubber bands. This is how the Ingram bills were compared to the original list and found to be in the same order as when Cooper received the money.     

I never said there weren't rubber bands, I believe there were but where does.. wrapped with multiple rubber bands come from? If that was during recording then the bundles were regular.

and, I outlined the bill list process in my post above which exposed issues.

The recorded bills totalled $250k on micro, there ended up being $30k in 20's not given to DBC, they manually recorded the top and bottom bill's serial number of those 15 bundles to then deduct them and the random numbers in between from the DBC money and create a "revised" bill list. Bill serial numbers were random.

That means the $20's were in regular bundles of 100 after they were recorded. The Ingram find also appeared to be in 3x regular bundles of 100. Where does the irregular bundles come from?

If the bundles were made irregular it means the bundles were unwrapped and rewrapped after they were initially recorded and wrapped. <<<I am looking for source for this claim

and the process of recording a top number and bottom number in 15 stacks of 100 random $20 bills then deducting from the micro to create a DBC is theoretically sound but uncheckable and potentially a source of error.

Anybody see this point..

all Bank emergency stashed bundles = $250k recorded on Micro then wrapped with at least rubber bands
the $20 bills made up $230k of that $250k (the rest was $10's)
$200k of $20's taken to DBC
$30k of $20's left, top and bottom bill number of regular bundles recorded, 15 bundles of 100 count $20 bills = regular bundles
those $30k of randomly numbered $20's in bundles of 100 were deducted from the original micro list as they were NOT given to DBC
Ingram's find appears to be 3x 100 count of $20's = regular bundles with rubber bands


So, the original sequentially photographed randomly numbered bill list on micro included 15 regular bundles of 100x $20's that DBC never received. The process of deducting them from the list is uncheckable, very sketchy and opens up the theoretical possibility that the Ingram money wasn't from the $200k Cooper money but the other $30k. I don't actually believe that but there is a theoretical path and I am trying to make a point. Recorded money was in regular bundles 100x$20 (excluding the $10's), Cooper money was claimed irregular but Ingram money appeared to be regular. Something isn't clear here.

FLYJACK,

Where does your $250,000 number come from?  There is absolutely nothing to support your idea that such an amount ever left the bank or was received by NWA.

All of the people involved in getting the money to NWA says it was $200,000 that left the bank and that NWA signed for.  I believed NWA's insurance company reimbursed them for $180,000 of that amount.  The remaining $20,000 (or 10 percent of the total) was the deductible under the insurance policy.

It is in the FBI files,

I never said $250k left the bank, the $200k for DBC came from a designated stack of $250k that was photographed to create the bill list.

$250,000 was kept aside by the banks in case of any ransom situation, that entire amount (230k in 20's and 20k in 10's) was sequentially photographed and on micro prior to NORJAK, it was in regular bundles of 100's for the 20's. $200k was taken from that and given to DBC, so the recorded micro had photographs of all bills including the ones DBC never received. To create an accurate bill list they needed to deduct from the list the $30k of $20 bills DBC didn't receive..

everybody with me..

This gets sketchy, they took the remaining $30k in 20's which was in 15 regular bundles of 100 random bills, noted the top and bottom bill then compared to the photographed micro list and removed the bill's in between the noted number's to establish a revised bill list. That would be 1500 $20 bills that were to be removed from the list. We assume they did this correctly but have no way to check. If they made an error then the list would include bill's randomly numbered recorded in physical sequence that were not given to DBC.

The bundles were regular when initially photographed, micro'd and wrapped, the Ingram money appeared to be regular. Where did the irregular claim come from, source.

You say "It is in the FBI files,"

Show us. Print the passage(s) here so we can read for ourselves what you are claiming.

Like R99 I have the feeling you are misinterpreting something, maybe the "FBI files" you now refer to. At least tell us where to access these files to see them for ourselves. That is standard practice here. A url would work.

Georger, I DID POST IT

I thought everyone knew it, but sensed Robert99 didn't so I took a screen grab and posted an attachment several posts back. Then he attacked me... I knew he didn't understand the issue.

You are posting so fast I cant keep up with his - literally.

I have no idea where you posted it and I dont have the time right now for this. Good luck.

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I have no idea where you posted it and I dont have the time right now for this. Good luck.

It was really hard to find in the middle of the previous page.. I'll repost here and it is a bit complicated to unwind so be patient. It even has the 15 ranges of 100 count bundles that were NOT given to DBC but on the list. (those ranges contain non sequential bill numbers)

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I have no idea where you posted it and I dont have the time right now for this. Good luck.

It was really hard to find in the middle of the previous page.. I'll repost here and it is a bit complicated to unwind so be patient. It even has the 15 ranges of 100 count bundles that were NOT given to DBC but on the list. (those ranges contain non sequential bill numbers)

FLYJACK,

There is nothing in your attachment to support your claim, and you DID make such a claim, that some of the serial numbers released by the FBI could be wrong.  The attachment was written up on Thanksgiving Day, the day after the hijacking, and the FBI did not release a list of the serial numbers until about a month or so later.  So there was no rush to publish them involved.

As pointed out previously, since the all of the identifiable serial numbers found on bills at Tina Bar were also on the FBI's published list, there is nothing to support your claim.

Again, this whole exercise is a waste of time and is just a bunch of nonsense.

"could be" is not a claim, it is a statement of fact.

Clearly, you just don't understand the FBI file information.

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The question still remains, why is this information is important? This is a minor detail, imho, unless you're suggesting the FBI planted the money on Tina Bar? I don't get it.

I think that is exactly what he's saying.

Most people just state a theory and then provide evidence. This guy is working backwards - inductively. Then he's saying - 'that's not what Im saying? It's just a possibility.' which only confuses matters further. I believe this is the crux of why people are having trouble following his posts. He must be trying to compare an FBI document of serial numbers given to Cooper vs. a list of Ingram serial numbers?

FlyJack may be saying that the Ingram find represents serial numbers not 'in' the FBI's original list of serial numbers the FBI says were given to Cooper. In other words, the Ingram find is bills Cooper never had, but from some other list of money. If true that would be a revelation.

Of course the problem could be clerical. Flyjack's comparison of lists and documents may not be valid? Let me stop here so as not to confuse this further, whatever it is Flyjack is saying. 

<edit> In other posts FJ has already said (a) the money was a late arrival - he seems to agree with Palmer's analysis, and (b) he has questioned fragments of money were found or have any significance. These two statements plus a claim the Ingram bills do not match the serial numbers given to Cooper, add up to support for a plant theory.