Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

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FLYJACK

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2895 on: May 04, 2017, 08:51:23 PM »
quote from martinandrade's blog

"I purchased an NB6 container along with an old military reserve container. Playing around with the equipment, it looks like it would be an easy matter to store some of the money in the reserve container and secure everything with paracord. The Reserve container then could be easily clipped to the main harness. There’s room for about 130,000 dollars in the reserve container (not including the parachute). I’ll have to get a parachute to see how much money could be carried with the reserve parachute"
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2896 on: May 04, 2017, 09:36:30 PM »
Basically, he destroyed both chest packs? why would he do this, one has already been opened up ready to go?

Quote
Tina Mucklow stated in FBI interview transcripts that upon takeoff from Seattle, “the hijacker was occupied with opening one of the parachute packs.” She recalled that the color of the chute was “a bright pink-orange color” and “the hijacker was attempting to in some way pack the money in a parachute container in order that he could in some way attach it to his body along with the regular parachute straps. She clearly recalled his removing a small jack knife from his pocket and cutting some portion of either the outside container or the parachute in order to secure the money in this rather than in the white bank-type bag which he had been furnished.”

Tina also said he would be forced to use one of the parachutes to wrap the money in since he didn't get the knapsack...it appears he tried that and failed...
« Last Edit: May 04, 2017, 09:41:41 PM by Shutter »
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2897 on: May 04, 2017, 09:46:02 PM »
Now, we could also speculate that Cooper tried to fit the canvas bag into the chest pack and it didn't fit, this could suggest he wanted all the money in one place, so he scrapped the idea...
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georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2898 on: May 04, 2017, 11:32:01 PM »
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Summation of Flyjack's "explanation"

Flyjack, do I come close to understanding your point of view/explanation for the money find at T-Bar? As below:

1. DB Cooper jumps at Ariel/LZ-A area as is customarily understood.
2. Some money is separated from Cooper upon exiting in some fashion.
3. The separated money leaves the plane after Cooper, perhaps 5-7 minutes or so later.
4. This separated bundle eventually lands in the Columbia River and travels to the T-Bar area.
5. This bundle is most likely protected in some fashion, such as being wrapped in a reserve chute bag or briefcase.
6. This kit-and-caboodle goes through the dredge, circa 1974.
7. Whatever got spit up on T-Bar is eventually found during the Feb 10-12, 1971 period.

Is that the general idea you're espousing?

Just askin'.

Yes, (Feb 10-12, 1980) my point is just that we should question the assumption that the hijacker and all the money MUST HAVE left the plane at exactly the same time. Though reasonable, there is actually no evidence for that.

This "money delayed" explanation makes everything fit.. FBI LZ, V23, TBAR and Dredge

Fallacies do make things fit - sort of! Temporarily. Epicycles by Aristotle was one example. Just toss some facts out and put some false facts in and things will fit, sort of!  ;)  Seems to be fashionable these days.  :))

A more elegant theory is he survived, walked to the Columbia with the money ... or Farflung's solution: he bailed into the Columbia!  :))

It isn't a fallacy, there is zero evidence that all the money left the plane exactly when the hijacker did.

Personally, my #1 theory was always that he had landed in the Columbia, but that negates the FBI LZ, the "money delay" explanation rationalizes FBI LZ and TBAR like no other.

Anything that starts with false assumptions is a fallacy. That is the definition of a fallacy. Anything derived by the rules of deduction from a fallacy is untrue. That's is how basic propositional logic works, ie the rules.

One of your fallacies is: there is zero evidence that all the money left the plane exactly when the hijacker did.

There is evidence. Tina's testimony for one. Moreover there is no evidence the money and Cooper did not leave together - zero, nada, zip, none. There is zero evidence Cooper and money left the plane at different times!

Moreover, even if your assumption was true,'there is zero evidence that all the money left the plane exactly when the hijacker did', that does not imply any of the further conclusions you draw! (used a briefcase, bailed over the Columbia, Tina lied, Dorwin lied, Tina did not witness or report the full facts, a briefcase found on Tina Bar, the money and briefcase were brought up with dredging material, Cooper bailed in the 8:15 time frame further south than thought, ........ and on and on and on).

All of that said this is obviously political for you. Please continue as you assuredly will ....  :)) :)) :))

Keep in mind there are a number of people who have given evidence on this subject. Tina is just one. I havent brought that up because you would reject it. Your intent is as clear as an Eskimow's smile!  O0
« Last Edit: May 04, 2017, 11:39:17 PM by georger »
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FLYJACK

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2899 on: May 05, 2017, 12:01:09 AM »
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Summation of Flyjack's "explanation"

Flyjack, do I come close to understanding your point of view/explanation for the money find at T-Bar? As below:

1. DB Cooper jumps at Ariel/LZ-A area as is customarily understood.
2. Some money is separated from Cooper upon exiting in some fashion.
3. The separated money leaves the plane after Cooper, perhaps 5-7 minutes or so later.
4. This separated bundle eventually lands in the Columbia River and travels to the T-Bar area.
5. This bundle is most likely protected in some fashion, such as being wrapped in a reserve chute bag or briefcase.
6. This kit-and-caboodle goes through the dredge, circa 1974.
7. Whatever got spit up on T-Bar is eventually found during the Feb 10-12, 1971 period.

Is that the general idea you're espousing?

Just askin'.

Yes, (Feb 10-12, 1980) my point is just that we should question the assumption that the hijacker and all the money MUST HAVE left the plane at exactly the same time. Though reasonable, there is actually no evidence for that.

This "money delayed" explanation makes everything fit.. FBI LZ, V23, TBAR and Dredge

Fallacies do make things fit - sort of! Temporarily. Epicycles by Aristotle was one example. Just toss some facts out and put some false facts in and things will fit, sort of!  ;)  Seems to be fashionable these days.  :))

A more elegant theory is he survived, walked to the Columbia with the money ... or Farflung's solution: he bailed into the Columbia!  :))

It isn't a fallacy, there is zero evidence that all the money left the plane exactly when the hijacker did.

Personally, my #1 theory was always that he had landed in the Columbia, but that negates the FBI LZ, the "money delay" explanation rationalizes FBI LZ and TBAR like no other.

Anything that starts with false assumptions is a fallacy. That is the definition of a fallacy. Anything derived by the rules of deduction from a fallacy is untrue. That's is how basic propositional logic works, ie the rules.

One of your fallacies is: there is zero evidence that all the money left the plane exactly when the hijacker did.


There is evidence. Tina's testimony for one. Moreover there is no evidence the money and Cooper did not leave together - zero, nada, zip, none. There is zero evidence Cooper and money left the plane at different times!

Moreover, even if your assumption was true,'there is zero evidence that all the money left the plane exactly when the hijacker did', that does not imply any of the further conclusions you draw! (used a briefcase, bailed over the Columbia, Tina lied, Dorwin lied, Tina did not witness or report the full facts, a briefcase found on Tina Bar, the money and briefcase were brought up with dredging material, Cooper bailed in the 8:15 time frame further south than thought, ........ and on and on and on).

All of that said this is obviously political for you. Please continue as you assuredly will ....  :)) :)) :))

Keep in mind there are a number of people who have given evidence on this subject. Tina is just one. I havent brought that up because you would reject it. Your intent is as clear as an Eskimow's smile!  O0

You make no sense.
Tina's testimony isn't evidence that all the money left with the hijacker at all. The hijacker was alone.

A fallacy is faulty reasoning, exactly what you have engaged in by assuming Tina's testimony is evidence in this particular matter.

And I admitted that there is no evidence to support either scenario.

You mischaracterize my position and engage in your own fallacies. Time to up your game and bring something new to the Cooper case instead of trying to undermine others.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2017, 12:01:46 AM by FLYJACK »
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georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2900 on: May 05, 2017, 01:07:36 AM »
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Summation of Flyjack's "explanation"

Flyjack, do I come close to understanding your point of view/explanation for the money find at T-Bar? As below:

1. DB Cooper jumps at Ariel/LZ-A area as is customarily understood.
2. Some money is separated from Cooper upon exiting in some fashion.
3. The separated money leaves the plane after Cooper, perhaps 5-7 minutes or so later.
4. This separated bundle eventually lands in the Columbia River and travels to the T-Bar area.
5. This bundle is most likely protected in some fashion, such as being wrapped in a reserve chute bag or briefcase.
6. This kit-and-caboodle goes through the dredge, circa 1974.
7. Whatever got spit up on T-Bar is eventually found during the Feb 10-12, 1971 period.

Is that the general idea you're espousing?

Just askin'.

Yes, (Feb 10-12, 1980) my point is just that we should question the assumption that the hijacker and all the money MUST HAVE left the plane at exactly the same time. Though reasonable, there is actually no evidence for that.

This "money delayed" explanation makes everything fit.. FBI LZ, V23, TBAR and Dredge

Fallacies do make things fit - sort of! Temporarily. Epicycles by Aristotle was one example. Just toss some facts out and put some false facts in and things will fit, sort of!  ;)  Seems to be fashionable these days.  :))

A more elegant theory is he survived, walked to the Columbia with the money ... or Farflung's solution: he bailed into the Columbia!  :))

It isn't a fallacy, there is zero evidence that all the money left the plane exactly when the hijacker did.

Personally, my #1 theory was always that he had landed in the Columbia, but that negates the FBI LZ, the "money delay" explanation rationalizes FBI LZ and TBAR like no other.

Anything that starts with false assumptions is a fallacy. That is the definition of a fallacy. Anything derived by the rules of deduction from a fallacy is untrue. That's is how basic propositional logic works, ie the rules.

One of your fallacies is: there is zero evidence that all the money left the plane exactly when the hijacker did.


There is evidence. Tina's testimony for one. Moreover there is no evidence the money and Cooper did not leave together - zero, nada, zip, none. There is zero evidence Cooper and money left the plane at different times!

Moreover, even if your assumption was true,'there is zero evidence that all the money left the plane exactly when the hijacker did', that does not imply any of the further conclusions you draw! (used a briefcase, bailed over the Columbia, Tina lied, Dorwin lied, Tina did not witness or report the full facts, a briefcase found on Tina Bar, the money and briefcase were brought up with dredging material, Cooper bailed in the 8:15 time frame further south than thought, ........ and on and on and on).

All of that said this is obviously political for you. Please continue as you assuredly will ....  :)) :)) :))

Keep in mind there are a number of people who have given evidence on this subject. Tina is just one. I havent brought that up because you would reject it. Your intent is as clear as an Eskimow's smile!  O0

You make no sense.
Tina's testimony isn't evidence that all the money left with the hijacker at all. The hijacker was alone.

A fallacy is faulty reasoning, exactly what you have engaged in by assuming Tina's testimony is evidence in this particular matter.

And I admitted that there is no evidence to support either scenario.

You mischaracterize my position and engage in your own fallacies. Time to up your game and bring something new to the Cooper case instead of trying to undermine others.

ok. thanks for the information.  ;)
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MeyerLouie

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2901 on: May 05, 2017, 10:47:43 AM »
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Georger and Meyer,

Appreciate your questions..

Let's clearly define this "explanation" which obviously can't be proven or disproven.

The common belief/assumed premise is that the hijacker left the plane at the exact same time as the money found on TBAR. We know that doesn't fit the FBI LZ, V23 and TBAR. There is NO good simple explanation that pulls it all together. So, I question the assumption.

I posit the idea based on logical inference, what if the premise that all the money and the hijacker left the plane at the same time for which there is no evidence is wrong.

If some of the money hung on the plane (Airstairs) for only 5-7 minutes after the hijacker left then everything makes sense, V23, FBI LZ and TBAR.

It is very reasonable to think of a scenario where the hijacker loses some money, somehow, trying to descend the Airstairs. That money falls into the Columbia 5-7 minutes later. I believe the briefcase would be the most likely as it is rigid and consistent with a container going through the dredge but maybe not.

Of course there is no evidence to prove or disprove this, it is an "explanation" of logical inference.

Don't focus on the briefcase. The money could have been in something else. WHO KNOWS.

Focus on this idea, if SOME money (somehow) left the plane 5-7 minutes after the hijacker it would have landed in the Columbia River, the hijacker in FBI LZ and some money 7-8 miles upstream of TBAR.

Frankly, I have never heard a better "explanation" that pulls everything together so simply. This can't be proven or disproved but neither can the premise that all the money and the hijacker left the plane together.

My detailed post about the technical operation of the Airstairs gives insight into the conditions on the Airstairs and the difference between the main control and emergency release.

All I am doing is questioning an unproven premise and exploring another unproven premise which happens to make everything fit better...  maybe others can envision another scenario where the hijacker losses control of some money and it leaves the plane 5-7 minutes after him. I just used the briefcase as most likely, it is rigid and would have protected the money all the way to TBAR.

This comes down to a binary condition, neither can be proven.

Either,
A. all the money left the plane with the hijacker
B. or it didn't.

If A then FBI LZ, V23 and TBAR don't make sense.
If B then FBI LZ, V23 and TBAR make sense.

Logical inference supports B. (of course it is only an "explanation")

You do offer something new to think about and give serious consideration to, Flyjack.  That's a good thing here.  Thanks.  Very intriguing.  I am confused at a higher level now.... Meyer
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Offline 377

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2902 on: May 05, 2017, 12:09:21 PM »
" I am confused at a higher level now.... Meyer "

Amen brother.  ;)

377
« Last Edit: May 05, 2017, 12:09:36 PM by 377 »
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georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2903 on: May 05, 2017, 02:16:17 PM »
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Georger and Meyer,

Appreciate your questions..

Let's clearly define this "explanation" which obviously can't be proven or disproven.

The common belief/assumed premise is that the hijacker left the plane at the exact same time as the money found on TBAR. We know that doesn't fit the FBI LZ, V23 and TBAR. There is NO good simple explanation that pulls it all together. So, I question the assumption.

I posit the idea based on logical inference, what if the premise that all the money and the hijacker left the plane at the same time for which there is no evidence is wrong.

If some of the money hung on the plane (Airstairs) for only 5-7 minutes after the hijacker left then everything makes sense, V23, FBI LZ and TBAR.

It is very reasonable to think of a scenario where the hijacker loses some money, somehow, trying to descend the Airstairs. That money falls into the Columbia 5-7 minutes later. I believe the briefcase would be the most likely as it is rigid and consistent with a container going through the dredge but maybe not.

Of course there is no evidence to prove or disprove this, it is an "explanation" of logical inference.

Don't focus on the briefcase. The money could have been in something else. WHO KNOWS.

Focus on this idea, if SOME money (somehow) left the plane 5-7 minutes after the hijacker it would have landed in the Columbia River, the hijacker in FBI LZ and some money 7-8 miles upstream of TBAR.

Frankly, I have never heard a better "explanation" that pulls everything together so simply. This can't be proven or disproved but neither can the premise that all the money and the hijacker left the plane together.

My detailed post about the technical operation of the Airstairs gives insight into the conditions on the Airstairs and the difference between the main control and emergency release.

All I am doing is questioning an unproven premise and exploring another unproven premise which happens to make everything fit better...  maybe others can envision another scenario where the hijacker losses control of some money and it leaves the plane 5-7 minutes after him. I just used the briefcase as most likely, it is rigid and would have protected the money all the way to TBAR.

This comes down to a binary condition, neither can be proven.

Either,
A. all the money left the plane with the hijacker
B. or it didn't.

If A then FBI LZ, V23 and TBAR don't make sense.
If B then FBI LZ, V23 and TBAR make sense.

Logical inference supports B. (of course it is only an "explanation")

all gibberish.

Are you SafecrackingPLF come back for another reincarnation? Did Carr send you here? Through the lens of Logic?

Confess!  :))

« Last Edit: May 05, 2017, 02:22:39 PM by georger »
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georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2904 on: May 05, 2017, 02:50:17 PM »
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" I am confused at a higher level now.... Meyer "

Amen brother.  ;)

377

There obviously are a number of permutations that 'could have happened'.

What stands out to me is the anti 'he survived' bias working, not just in the FBI but in forums. Something else or anything else must have happened first! Anything else, no matter how obtuse or creative! If it could have happened then it must have happened, long before the simple proposition 'he survived and walked south'. Kaye picked up on this right away years ago - its one of the simplest explanations, maybe a 50-50 probability or stronger.

We have a rail line and roads directly connecting the traditional DZ area with just a few feet north of Tina Bar, and yet nobody wants to consider he survived and traveled that route south from the accepted drop zone. Maybe the problem is it's not glamorous enough? So if I say he could have ridden a goat south to Tina Bar would that improve the odds? If I said 'goat hairs' could have been found in the money, would that improve the odds?  In fact, if I said what could have broken the briefcase allegedly found at Tina Bar and I said that could have been the jaw bone of an ass, would that improve the odds? Because religious, Biblical, and political considerations seem to be driving and steering the direction of this whole discussion. No way did he simply survive and walk south with the money. That never could have happened and we will not consider that, in any event. It lack the essential glamor!  :)) 
« Last Edit: May 05, 2017, 03:00:00 PM by georger »
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Offline Kermit

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2905 on: May 05, 2017, 11:37:42 PM »
Just a quick update. I was in Portland today taking care of a number of matters. The river is very high of course due to all the storms coming through this area in the last few days. I took this opportunity to drop by " Frenchmens Bar" and walk to waters edge. There is really no beach area there to speak of right now. I drove by the Fazio property and their Sand operation is going strong as well as their cattle operation. They have it posted as private with no river access unless you belong to some membership ? I'm not sure what that means.
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2906 on: May 05, 2017, 11:40:05 PM »
Thanks for the update...I guess we wait  :'(

I don't know anything about the membership, perhaps Meyer does?
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MeyerLouie

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2907 on: May 05, 2017, 11:42:49 PM »
This is from Georger's quote:

If it could have happened then it must have happened, long before the simple proposition 'he survived and walked south'. Kaye picked up on this right away years ago - its one of the simplest explanations, maybe a 50-50 probability or stronger.

We have a rail line and roads directly connecting the traditional DZ area with just a few feet north of Tina Bar, and yet nobody wants to consider he survived and traveled that route south from the accepted drop zone. 
[/quote]

-------------------------------------------------------

Georger, your statement here is intriguing.  I have heard enough from skydiver experts on the forum over the years to believe that Cooper's jump was very survivable.   Paratroopers with 100 pounds of gear survived the jump near Normandy Beach, behind enemy lines, in bad weather, right before D-Day.  I have no problem believing Cooper survived the jump.  Let's say he did. 

Then I studied some of the railroad lines and road map and Google Earth map around the Ariel/Lake Merwin area.  It is uncanny just how close they are to each other -- down the Lewis River from Ariel to the Columbia River, turn south, and you're at Tina Bar -- not that far, maybe 20 miles.  I then looked at some of the railroad lines.  From what I could see, a rail line from Merwin east toward Cougar was abandoned, but the rail line from the Lake Merwin area down the Lewis River to Woodland is operational.  And there is a rail line that goes south from Woodland to Vancouver, and it just so happens to come within earshot of Tina Bar.  It would be interesting to see if that particular rail line did a run down the Lewis River to Woodland, from the Merwin Lake area, on 11/24/1971, and if a line also ran that night from Woodland to Vancouver, via Tina Bar.  I'm sure this was discussed on the DropZone forum, I need to look up those discussions...I'd be interested in checking out rail runs in the area on the night of 11/24/1971.  I have a brother who works for the railroad, he's been driving trains for years, and he lives in Vancouver.  I think I will run this one by him.  Anybody have any information or ideas to add?
Meyer
« Last Edit: May 05, 2017, 11:45:53 PM by MeyerLouie »
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Offline Kermit

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2908 on: May 06, 2017, 12:11:52 AM »
The railroad line runs from Seattle to LA. It's been in existence for many years. It crosses the Columbia about 5 upstream from Tina Bar and that bridge has been there for many years. The same railroad line runs through my little town of Vader and locals tell me 59 trains per day pass by. Obviously this is a busy line.
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FLYJACK

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2909 on: May 06, 2017, 12:22:44 AM »
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This is from Georger's quote:

If it could have happened then it must have happened, long before the simple proposition 'he survived and walked south'. Kaye picked up on this right away years ago - its one of the simplest explanations, maybe a 50-50 probability or stronger.

We have a rail line and roads directly connecting the traditional DZ area with just a few feet north of Tina Bar, and yet nobody wants to consider he survived and traveled that route south from the accepted drop zone. 

-------------------------------------------------------

Georger, your statement here is intriguing.  I have heard enough from skydiver experts on the forum over the years to believe that Cooper's jump was very survivable.   Paratroopers with 100 pounds of gear survived the jump near Normandy Beach, behind enemy lines, in bad weather, right before D-Day.  I have no problem believing Cooper survived the jump.  Let's say he did. 

Then I studied some of the railroad lines and road map and Google Earth map around the Ariel/Lake Merwin area.  It is uncanny just how close they are to each other -- down the Lewis River from Ariel to the Columbia River, turn south, and you're at Tina Bar -- not that far, maybe 20 miles.  I then looked at some of the railroad lines.  From what I could see, a rail line from Merwin east toward Cougar was abandoned, but the rail line from the Lake Merwin area down the Lewis River to Woodland is operational.  And there is a rail line that goes south from Woodland to Vancouver, and it just so happens to come within earshot of Tina Bar.  It would be interesting to see if that particular rail line did a run down the Lewis River to Woodland, from the Merwin Lake area, on 11/24/1971, and if a line also ran that night from Woodland to Vancouver, via Tina Bar.  I'm sure this was discussed on the DropZone forum, I need to look up those discussions...I'd be interested in checking out rail runs in the area on the night of 11/24/1971.  I have a brother who works for the railroad, he's been driving trains for years, and he lives in Vancouver.  I think I will run this one by him.  Anybody have any information or ideas to add?
Meyer
[/quote]

I looked at this theory a few years ago but had issues with..

Why did he just drop the cash while walking?
Why would he walk to that location, TBAR?
but mainly, the money was found above the dredge layer.. deposited later or timing issue

So, extremely low probability, but using the rail tracks to escape his LZ is reasonable..
« Last Edit: May 06, 2017, 12:23:40 AM by FLYJACK »
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