Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find  (Read 1268600 times)

FLYJACK

  • Guest
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2865 on: May 02, 2017, 03:48:27 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
The reason TBAR makes no sense is because EVERYONE starts with the assumption that the hijacker and the TBAR money must have left the plane at the exact same time. This is "unknown".

It is a logical error to hold fast to the premise that the Hijacker left the plane at the exact time as all the money/briefcase. If the money/briefcase left the plane just minutes after the hijacker then the V23 flightpath, FBI LZ and TBAR money find all make sense. EVERYTHING GETS PULLED TOGETHER.

It is reasonable to theorize that the hijacker lost control of the briefcase in those Airstair conditions and it may have fallen from the Airstairs some minutes later into the Columbia River. If he had put some of the money in the briefcase and it fell into the the Columbia River drainage area floating, flooding and dredging puts the money on TBAR. The hijacker leaves the plane over land on V23 near the FBI LZ and the briefcase/money falls minutes later into the Columbia River drainage system, this theory fits everything. If the money went through the dredge it must have been in a protective container and that would have been the briefcase. Further note but unconfirmed and point of argument, the FBI agent told Bruce that there was part of a briefcase found, this was walked back as a senior’s moment. Perhaps so, but it is common for FBI to withhold specific info from the public and it is extremely rare for an FBI agent to fabricate a piece of evidence. This can’t be dismissed, we just don’t know. The FBI agent may have forgot that it was withheld info then walked it back. Even if a piece of the briefcase wasn’t found it doesn’t change the theory.

Further, the drop test after pic shows the Airstair side panel completely peeled back intact while the hijacked plane shows vertical and horizontal shredding on the lower portion of the panels, The panel damage pattern is completely different. The damage to the hijacked plane Airstairs panels looks consistent with sharp internal impacts like a loose briefcase flying back and forth inside partially lowered Airstairs.

total fabrication. we have been this before with you and Cousin Bruce. Good luck!

It is called a theory,

It is reasonable, plausible and simply ties everything together better than any other theory...

The briefcase/money just left the plane a few minutes after the hijacker..  and it all makes sense. TBAR, V23 and the FBI LZ...

Resistance is futile....  it just works...

Technically, I would say it's a hypothesis rather than a theory.  I don't see any problem with presenting hypotheses here to let others try to find the weaknesses in them.

Technically, it can't be tested and verified. Maybe call it an "explanation".
 

FLYJACK

  • Guest
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2866 on: May 02, 2017, 07:25:26 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
This theory requires proof of distance between the original timing of the jump. it's very plausible that he jumped close to the river, but proving it is another problem. where do you close the gap?

No way to prove it, but I did a rough calculation and the briefcase/money only needs to hang on in those Airstairs for 3-5 minutes after the hijacker left the plane to be over the Columbia River drainage basin.

Remember, those Airstairs would have closed up after the hijacker left and had a small opening at the end that was probably horizontal or close, the side panels would have held objects in.. like a tube with a small opening at the end. An object would have been bouncing around violently until it broke through a side panel or went out the opening at the end.

I have gone over it, no way to prove it true or false. It is just a simple explanation that makes everything else fit. Frankly, the simplest and best explanation I have heard.

Everyone, myself included has assumed that the TBAR money must have left the plane at exactly the same time as the hijacker. That is incompatible with V23, FBI LZ and TBAR$.. Remove the assumption that the TBAR money left exactly when the hijacker did and everything makes sense.

(I always thought he must have landed/died in the Columbia, but not anymore)

Further, there is no way for the TBAR money to go through a dredge unless it was in a rigid container.. like a briefcase.

You get V23, the FBI LZ (or close) and the TBAR dredge all wrapped up... 


This explanation assumes..

The hijacker placed some money in the briefcase,
The hijacker lost control of the briefcase on the Airstairs and
The briefcase fell off the plane 3-5 minutes after the hijacker left. (over the Columbia River)
« Last Edit: May 02, 2017, 07:37:40 PM by FLYJACK »
 

MeyerLouie

  • Guest
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2867 on: May 02, 2017, 08:14:08 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
The reason TBAR makes no sense is because EVERYONE starts with the assumption that the hijacker and the TBAR money must have left the plane at the exact same time. This is "unknown".

It is a logical error to hold fast to the premise that the Hijacker left the plane at the exact time as all the money/briefcase. If the money/briefcase left the plane just minutes after the hijacker then the V23 flightpath, FBI LZ and TBAR money find all make sense. EVERYTHING GETS PULLED TOGETHER.

It is reasonable to theorize that the hijacker lost control of the briefcase in those Airstair conditions and it may have fallen from the Airstairs some minutes later into the Columbia River. If he had put some of the money in the briefcase and it fell into the the Columbia River drainage area floating, flooding and dredging puts the money on TBAR. The hijacker leaves the plane over land on V23 near the FBI LZ and the briefcase/money falls minutes later into the Columbia River drainage system, this theory fits everything. If the money went through the dredge it must have been in a protective container and that would have been the briefcase. Further note but unconfirmed and point of argument, the FBI agent told Bruce that there was part of a briefcase found, this was walked back as a senior’s moment. Perhaps so, but it is common for FBI to withhold specific info from the public and it is extremely rare for an FBI agent to fabricate a piece of evidence. This can’t be dismissed, we just don’t know. The FBI agent may have forgot that it was withheld info then walked it back. Even if a piece of the briefcase wasn’t found it doesn’t change the theory.

Further, the drop test after pic shows the Airstair side panel completely peeled back intact while the hijacked plane shows vertical and horizontal shredding on the lower portion of the panels, The panel damage pattern is completely different. The damage to the hijacked plane Airstairs panels looks consistent with sharp internal impacts like a loose briefcase flying back and forth inside partially lowered Airstairs.

total fabrication. we have been this before with you and Cousin Bruce. Good luck!

It is called a theory,

It is reasonable, plausible and simply ties everything together better than any other theory...

The briefcase/money just left the plane a few minutes after the hijacker..  and it all makes sense. TBAR, V23 and the FBI LZ...

Resistance is futile....  it just works...

Maybe I missed something, but tell me again how the briefcase and money could leave the plane after Cooper jumped.  Nobody would be there to throw out the briefcase and money.  How would that even be possible?  And why would Cooper risk parting ways with the money in this manner if he risked everything just to get it? 
Meyer 
 

Robert99

  • Guest
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2868 on: May 02, 2017, 08:27:13 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
The reason TBAR makes no sense is because EVERYONE starts with the assumption that the hijacker and the TBAR money must have left the plane at the exact same time. This is "unknown".

It is a logical error to hold fast to the premise that the Hijacker left the plane at the exact time as all the money/briefcase. If the money/briefcase left the plane just minutes after the hijacker then the V23 flightpath, FBI LZ and TBAR money find all make sense. EVERYTHING GETS PULLED TOGETHER.

It is reasonable to theorize that the hijacker lost control of the briefcase in those Airstair conditions and it may have fallen from the Airstairs some minutes later into the Columbia River. If he had put some of the money in the briefcase and it fell into the the Columbia River drainage area floating, flooding and dredging puts the money on TBAR. The hijacker leaves the plane over land on V23 near the FBI LZ and the briefcase/money falls minutes later into the Columbia River drainage system, this theory fits everything. If the money went through the dredge it must have been in a protective container and that would have been the briefcase. Further note but unconfirmed and point of argument, the FBI agent told Bruce that there was part of a briefcase found, this was walked back as a senior’s moment. Perhaps so, but it is common for FBI to withhold specific info from the public and it is extremely rare for an FBI agent to fabricate a piece of evidence. This can’t be dismissed, we just don’t know. The FBI agent may have forgot that it was withheld info then walked it back. Even if a piece of the briefcase wasn’t found it doesn’t change the theory.

Further, the drop test after pic shows the Airstair side panel completely peeled back intact while the hijacked plane shows vertical and horizontal shredding on the lower portion of the panels, The panel damage pattern is completely different. The damage to the hijacked plane Airstairs panels looks consistent with sharp internal impacts like a loose briefcase flying back and forth inside partially lowered Airstairs.

total fabrication. we have been this before with you and Cousin Bruce. Good luck!

It is called a theory,

It is reasonable, plausible and simply ties everything together better than any other theory...

The briefcase/money just left the plane a few minutes after the hijacker..  and it all makes sense. TBAR, V23 and the FBI LZ...

Resistance is futile....  it just works...

Maybe I missed something, but tell me again how the briefcase and money could leave the plane after Cooper jumped.  Nobody would be there to throw out the briefcase and money.  How would that even be possible?  And why would Cooper risk parting ways with the money in this manner if he risked everything just to get it? 
Meyer

And don't forget that the last time Cooper was seen he was tying the money bag to his waist.
 

MeyerLouie

  • Guest
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2869 on: May 02, 2017, 08:27:47 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
The reason TBAR makes no sense is because EVERYONE starts with the assumption that the hijacker and the TBAR money must have left the plane at the exact same time. This is "unknown".

It is a logical error to hold fast to the premise that the Hijacker left the plane at the exact time as all the money/briefcase. If the money/briefcase left the plane just minutes after the hijacker then the V23 flightpath, FBI LZ and TBAR money find all make sense. EVERYTHING GETS PULLED TOGETHER.

It is reasonable to theorize that the hijacker lost control of the briefcase in those Airstair conditions and it may have fallen from the Airstairs some minutes later into the Columbia River. If he had put some of the money in the briefcase and it fell into the the Columbia River drainage area floating, flooding and dredging puts the money on TBAR. The hijacker leaves the plane over land on V23 near the FBI LZ and the briefcase/money falls minutes later into the Columbia River drainage system, this theory fits everything. If the money went through the dredge it must have been in a protective container and that would have been the briefcase. Further note but unconfirmed and point of argument, the FBI agent told Bruce that there was part of a briefcase found, this was walked back as a senior’s moment. Perhaps so, but it is common for FBI to withhold specific info from the public and it is extremely rare for an FBI agent to fabricate a piece of evidence. This can’t be dismissed, we just don’t know. The FBI agent may have forgot that it was withheld info then walked it back. Even if a piece of the briefcase wasn’t found it doesn’t change the theory.

Further, the drop test after pic shows the Airstair side panel completely peeled back intact while the hijacked plane shows vertical and horizontal shredding on the lower portion of the panels, The panel damage pattern is completely different. The damage to the hijacked plane Airstairs panels looks consistent with sharp internal impacts like a loose briefcase flying back and forth inside partially lowered Airstairs.

total fabrication. we have been this before with you and Cousin Bruce. Good luck!

It is called a theory,

It is reasonable, plausible and simply ties everything together better than any other theory...

The briefcase/money just left the plane a few minutes after the hijacker..  and it all makes sense. TBAR, V23 and the FBI LZ...

Resistance is futile....  it just works...

Maybe I missed something, but tell me again how the briefcase and money could leave the plane after Cooper jumped.  The briefcase just bounced around the aft stairs for 5 minutes after Cooper jumped, before it (the briefcase) fell off the stairs and plummeted to Tina Bar.  Is that correct? That seems very unlikely in my estimation.  And why would Cooper risk parting ways with the money in such a manner if he risked everything just to get it?  I am convinced Cooper would have secured the money to his person much more securely than that.  In an unsecured briefcase where it might be possible for it to come loose and flop around in the aft stairs for a while?  Not likely. 
So, the briefcase ended up at Tina Bar?  That's news to me.

Meyer
 

FLYJACK

  • Guest
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2870 on: May 02, 2017, 08:36:00 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
The reason TBAR makes no sense is because EVERYONE starts with the assumption that the hijacker and the TBAR money must have left the plane at the exact same time. This is "unknown".

It is a logical error to hold fast to the premise that the Hijacker left the plane at the exact time as all the money/briefcase. If the money/briefcase left the plane just minutes after the hijacker then the V23 flightpath, FBI LZ and TBAR money find all make sense. EVERYTHING GETS PULLED TOGETHER.

It is reasonable to theorize that the hijacker lost control of the briefcase in those Airstair conditions and it may have fallen from the Airstairs some minutes later into the Columbia River. If he had put some of the money in the briefcase and it fell into the the Columbia River drainage area floating, flooding and dredging puts the money on TBAR. The hijacker leaves the plane over land on V23 near the FBI LZ and the briefcase/money falls minutes later into the Columbia River drainage system, this theory fits everything. If the money went through the dredge it must have been in a protective container and that would have been the briefcase. Further note but unconfirmed and point of argument, the FBI agent told Bruce that there was part of a briefcase found, this was walked back as a senior’s moment. Perhaps so, but it is common for FBI to withhold specific info from the public and it is extremely rare for an FBI agent to fabricate a piece of evidence. This can’t be dismissed, we just don’t know. The FBI agent may have forgot that it was withheld info then walked it back. Even if a piece of the briefcase wasn’t found it doesn’t change the theory.

Further, the drop test after pic shows the Airstair side panel completely peeled back intact while the hijacked plane shows vertical and horizontal shredding on the lower portion of the panels, The panel damage pattern is completely different. The damage to the hijacked plane Airstairs panels looks consistent with sharp internal impacts like a loose briefcase flying back and forth inside partially lowered Airstairs.

total fabrication. we have been this before with you and Cousin Bruce. Good luck!

It is called a theory,

It is reasonable, plausible and simply ties everything together better than any other theory...

The briefcase/money just left the plane a few minutes after the hijacker..  and it all makes sense. TBAR, V23 and the FBI LZ...

Resistance is futile....  it just works...

Maybe I missed something, but tell me again how the briefcase and money could leave the plane after Cooper jumped.  Nobody would be there to throw out the briefcase and money.  How would that even be possible?  And why would Cooper risk parting ways with the money in this manner if he risked everything just to get it? 
Meyer

And don't forget that the last time Cooper was seen he was tying the money bag to his waist.

I doubled checked Tina's statement and she didn't say that, she said he was using the parachute for the money instead of the bank bag.. he could have utilized the briefcase as well..

He could have put some of the money in the briefcase and probably tried to secure it to his body, using the "emergency" system the stairs would have been in a free fall and the ascent down those stairs very difficult. He lost control of it in the tight Airstairs and it fell minutes later into the Columbia.

Perhaps he did tie the briefcase to his body but the handle broke during his Airstair ascent and he lost it in the Airstair cavity..

The key is to abandon the assumption that the TBAR money and the hijacker MUST have left the plane together, there is actually no evidence for this. A few minutes delay for some of the money and everything works...
« Last Edit: May 02, 2017, 08:53:29 PM by FLYJACK »
 

georger

  • Guest
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2871 on: May 04, 2017, 01:45:26 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
The reason TBAR makes no sense is because EVERYONE starts with the assumption that the hijacker and the TBAR money must have left the plane at the exact same time. This is "unknown".

It is a logical error to hold fast to the premise that the Hijacker left the plane at the exact time as all the money/briefcase. If the money/briefcase left the plane just minutes after the hijacker then the V23 flightpath, FBI LZ and TBAR money find all make sense. EVERYTHING GETS PULLED TOGETHER.

It is reasonable to theorize that the hijacker lost control of the briefcase in those Airstair conditions and it may have fallen from the Airstairs some minutes later into the Columbia River. If he had put some of the money in the briefcase and it fell into the the Columbia River drainage area floating, flooding and dredging puts the money on TBAR. The hijacker leaves the plane over land on V23 near the FBI LZ and the briefcase/money falls minutes later into the Columbia River drainage system, this theory fits everything. If the money went through the dredge it must have been in a protective container and that would have been the briefcase. Further note but unconfirmed and point of argument, the FBI agent told Bruce that there was part of a briefcase found, this was walked back as a senior’s moment. Perhaps so, but it is common for FBI to withhold specific info from the public and it is extremely rare for an FBI agent to fabricate a piece of evidence. This can’t be dismissed, we just don’t know. The FBI agent may have forgot that it was withheld info then walked it back. Even if a piece of the briefcase wasn’t found it doesn’t change the theory.

Further, the drop test after pic shows the Airstair side panel completely peeled back intact while the hijacked plane shows vertical and horizontal shredding on the lower portion of the panels, The panel damage pattern is completely different. The damage to the hijacked plane Airstairs panels looks consistent with sharp internal impacts like a loose briefcase flying back and forth inside partially lowered Airstairs.

total fabrication. we have been this before with you and Cousin Bruce. Good luck!

It is called a theory,

It is reasonable, plausible and simply ties everything together better than any other theory...

The briefcase/money just left the plane a few minutes after the hijacker..  and it all makes sense. TBAR, V23 and the FBI LZ...

Resistance is futile....  it just works...

Maybe I missed something, but tell me again how the briefcase and money could leave the plane after Cooper jumped.  Nobody would be there to throw out the briefcase and money.  How would that even be possible?  And why would Cooper risk parting ways with the money in this manner if he risked everything just to get it? 
Meyer

And don't forget that the last time Cooper was seen he was tying the money bag to his waist.

I doubled checked Tina's statement and she didn't say that, she said he was using the parachute for the money instead of the bank bag.. he could have utilized the briefcase as well..

He could have put some of the money in the briefcase and probably tried to secure it to his body, using the "emergency" system the stairs would have been in a free fall and the ascent down those stairs very difficult. He lost control of it in the tight Airstairs and it fell minutes later into the Columbia.

Perhaps he did tie the briefcase to his body but the handle broke during his Airstair ascent and he lost it in the Airstair cavity..

The key is to abandon the assumption that the TBAR money and the hijacker MUST have left the plane together, there is actually no evidence for this. A few minutes delay for some of the money and everything works...

Tina has made different statements in different interviews: here are three of her statements verbatim:

(1)   Mucklow states that at takeoff from Seattle the hijacker was in seat 18-D or 18-E, occupying both seats at various times, and she was seated across the aisle in 18-C. Mucklow states that at takeoff the hijacker was using several seats and was occupied with opening one of the parachutes and attempting to pack the money in the parachute container and attach it to his body using the parachute (container’s) straps …

(2)   When Mucklow returned to the plane with the last back pack chute, she saw that the hijacker had one of the small chutes open and was cutting nylon cords out with his pocket knife. He took the nylon cord and wrapped it around the neck of the money bag numerous times and then he wrapped it a few times from top to bottom, and with the same piece (of cord)  he made a loop like a handle at the top. This nylon cord was pinkish in color. He appeared irritated that they hadn’t given him a knapsack for the money as requested, and after trying to put the money in an unfolded parachute, he decided to leave it in the canvas bag (and fabricate a holding line for that, instead).   

(3)   The plane took off (with the rear door ajar) and she held her ears because of the loud noise from the engines. Approximately four minutes after take off he stood up and told her to go the cockpit and close the first class curtain, and for no one to come back behind the curtain. The lights were out in the rear compartment and she went forward, faced the curtain, (and turned around and looked?) and the last time she saw him he had a nylon cord tied around his waste and he was standing in the isle. Before she secured the curtain she called back and pleaded with him to take the bomb with him or disarm it before he left.   

7:54 pm    t1   
MSP:      As soon as reasonably sure the man has left the quicker you can land.
305:       Roger. Miss Mucklow said he apparently has the knapsack around him
and thinks he will attempt a jump. 
MSP:      Roger. After leaving this freq go to 131.8 we have direct phone patch
There (to Company and FBI)
305:       Roger.

No mention of the brief case in regard to money in any interview or crew statement.

*ref SA Campbell interviews (2), Reno interview, PI Transcript.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2017, 01:51:34 AM by georger »
 

MeyerLouie

  • Guest
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2872 on: May 04, 2017, 02:38:26 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
The reason TBAR makes no sense is because EVERYONE starts with the assumption that the hijacker and the TBAR money must have left the plane at the exact same time. This is "unknown".

It is a logical error to hold fast to the premise that the Hijacker left the plane at the exact time as all the money/briefcase. If the money/briefcase left the plane just minutes after the hijacker then the V23 flightpath, FBI LZ and TBAR money find all make sense. EVERYTHING GETS PULLED TOGETHER.

It is reasonable to theorize that the hijacker lost control of the briefcase in those Airstair conditions and it may have fallen from the Airstairs some minutes later into the Columbia River. If he had put some of the money in the briefcase and it fell into the the Columbia River drainage area floating, flooding and dredging puts the money on TBAR. The hijacker leaves the plane over land on V23 near the FBI LZ and the briefcase/money falls minutes later into the Columbia River drainage system, this theory fits everything. If the money went through the dredge it must have been in a protective container and that would have been the briefcase. Further note but unconfirmed and point of argument, the FBI agent told Bruce that there was part of a briefcase found, this was walked back as a senior’s moment. Perhaps so, but it is common for FBI to withhold specific info from the public and it is extremely rare for an FBI agent to fabricate a piece of evidence. This can’t be dismissed, we just don’t know. The FBI agent may have forgot that it was withheld info then walked it back. Even if a piece of the briefcase wasn’t found it doesn’t change the theory.

Further, the drop test after pic shows the Airstair side panel completely peeled back intact while the hijacked plane shows vertical and horizontal shredding on the lower portion of the panels, The panel damage pattern is completely different. The damage to the hijacked plane Airstairs panels looks consistent with sharp internal impacts like a loose briefcase flying back and forth inside partially lowered Airstairs.

total fabrication. we have been this before with you and Cousin Bruce. Good luck!

It is called a theory,

It is reasonable, plausible and simply ties everything together better than any other theory...

The briefcase/money just left the plane a few minutes after the hijacker..  and it all makes sense. TBAR, V23 and the FBI LZ...

Resistance is futile....  it just works...

Maybe I missed something, but tell me again how the briefcase and money could leave the plane after Cooper jumped.  Nobody would be there to throw out the briefcase and money.  How would that even be possible?  And why would Cooper risk parting ways with the money in this manner if he risked everything just to get it? 
Meyer

And don't forget that the last time Cooper was seen he was tying the money bag to his waist.

I doubled checked Tina's statement and she didn't say that, she said he was using the parachute for the money instead of the bank bag.. he could have utilized the briefcase as well..

He could have put some of the money in the briefcase and probably tried to secure it to his body, using the "emergency" system the stairs would have been in a free fall and the ascent down those stairs very difficult. He lost control of it in the tight Airstairs and it fell minutes later into the Columbia.

Perhaps he did tie the briefcase to his body but the handle broke during his Airstair ascent and he lost it in the Airstair cavity..

The key is to abandon the assumption that the TBAR money and the hijacker MUST have left the plane together, there is actually no evidence for this. A few minutes delay for some of the money and everything works...

Tina has made different statements in different interviews: here are three of her statements verbatim:

(1)   Mucklow states that at takeoff from Seattle the hijacker was in seat 18-D or 18-E, occupying both seats at various times, and she was seated across the aisle in 18-C. Mucklow states that at takeoff the hijacker was using several seats and was occupied with opening one of the parachutes and attempting to pack the money in the parachute container and attach it to his body using the parachute (container’s) straps …

(2)   When Mucklow returned to the plane with the last back pack chute, she saw that the hijacker had one of the small chutes open and was cutting nylon cords out with his pocket knife. He took the nylon cord and wrapped it around the neck of the money bag numerous times and then he wrapped it a few times from top to bottom, and with the same piece (of cord)  he made a loop like a handle at the top. This nylon cord was pinkish in color. He appeared irritated that they hadn’t given him a knapsack for the money as requested, and after trying to put the money in an unfolded parachute, he decided to leave it in the canvas bag (and fabricate a holding line for that, instead).   

(3)   The plane took off (with the rear door ajar) and she held her ears because of the loud noise from the engines. Approximately four minutes after take off he stood up and told her to go the cockpit and close the first class curtain, and for no one to come back behind the curtain. The lights were out in the rear compartment and she went forward, faced the curtain, (and turned around and looked?) and the last time she saw him he had a nylon cord tied around his waste and he was standing in the isle. Before she secured the curtain she called back and pleaded with him to take the bomb with him or disarm it before he left.   

7:54 pm    t1   
MSP:      As soon as reasonably sure the man has left the quicker you can land.
305:       Roger. Miss Mucklow said he apparently has the knapsack around him
and thinks he will attempt a jump. 
MSP:      Roger. After leaving this freq go to 131.8 we have direct phone patch
There (to Company and FBI)
305:       Roger.

No mention of the brief case in regard to money in any interview or crew statement.

*ref SA Campbell interviews (2), Reno interview, PI Transcript.

Why would Cooper use the briefcase for transporting his money?  Its shape is awkward -- tying a rectangular prism-shaped object to his body would have been so unwieldy and so much more gawdy than what it appears he must have done -- securing the money bag first, then attaching the money bag to his person -- using the chord from one of the parachutes.  As I said earlier, I would think he would have found a way to secure the money to his body as best he could -- since that was the prize he had just risked his life and everything to get.  I don't see him taking unnecessary risks that might cause the money to get separated from him.  The briefcase would present such a risk -- it could break up, get ripped apart -- and out goes the money.  Rather, I think he made great effort to secure the money the best possible way -- into the bag first, tied up, then onto his body -- secured with a length of parachute chord.  The evidence seems to indicate that is, in fact, what he did.
Meyer
 

georger

  • Guest
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2873 on: May 04, 2017, 03:25:48 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
The reason TBAR makes no sense is because EVERYONE starts with the assumption that the hijacker and the TBAR money must have left the plane at the exact same time. This is "unknown".

It is a logical error to hold fast to the premise that the Hijacker left the plane at the exact time as all the money/briefcase. If the money/briefcase left the plane just minutes after the hijacker then the V23 flightpath, FBI LZ and TBAR money find all make sense. EVERYTHING GETS PULLED TOGETHER.

It is reasonable to theorize that the hijacker lost control of the briefcase in those Airstair conditions and it may have fallen from the Airstairs some minutes later into the Columbia River. If he had put some of the money in the briefcase and it fell into the the Columbia River drainage area floating, flooding and dredging puts the money on TBAR. The hijacker leaves the plane over land on V23 near the FBI LZ and the briefcase/money falls minutes later into the Columbia River drainage system, this theory fits everything. If the money went through the dredge it must have been in a protective container and that would have been the briefcase. Further note but unconfirmed and point of argument, the FBI agent told Bruce that there was part of a briefcase found, this was walked back as a senior’s moment. Perhaps so, but it is common for FBI to withhold specific info from the public and it is extremely rare for an FBI agent to fabricate a piece of evidence. This can’t be dismissed, we just don’t know. The FBI agent may have forgot that it was withheld info then walked it back. Even if a piece of the briefcase wasn’t found it doesn’t change the theory.

Further, the drop test after pic shows the Airstair side panel completely peeled back intact while the hijacked plane shows vertical and horizontal shredding on the lower portion of the panels, The panel damage pattern is completely different. The damage to the hijacked plane Airstairs panels looks consistent with sharp internal impacts like a loose briefcase flying back and forth inside partially lowered Airstairs.

total fabrication. we have been this before with you and Cousin Bruce. Good luck!

It is called a theory,

It is reasonable, plausible and simply ties everything together better than any other theory...

The briefcase/money just left the plane a few minutes after the hijacker..  and it all makes sense. TBAR, V23 and the FBI LZ...

Resistance is futile....  it just works...

Maybe I missed something, but tell me again how the briefcase and money could leave the plane after Cooper jumped.  Nobody would be there to throw out the briefcase and money.  How would that even be possible?  And why would Cooper risk parting ways with the money in this manner if he risked everything just to get it? 
Meyer

And don't forget that the last time Cooper was seen he was tying the money bag to his waist.

I doubled checked Tina's statement and she didn't say that, she said he was using the parachute for the money instead of the bank bag.. he could have utilized the briefcase as well..

He could have put some of the money in the briefcase and probably tried to secure it to his body, using the "emergency" system the stairs would have been in a free fall and the ascent down those stairs very difficult. He lost control of it in the tight Airstairs and it fell minutes later into the Columbia.

Perhaps he did tie the briefcase to his body but the handle broke during his Airstair ascent and he lost it in the Airstair cavity..

The key is to abandon the assumption that the TBAR money and the hijacker MUST have left the plane together, there is actually no evidence for this. A few minutes delay for some of the money and everything works...

Tina has made different statements in different interviews: here are three of her statements verbatim:

(1)   Mucklow states that at takeoff from Seattle the hijacker was in seat 18-D or 18-E, occupying both seats at various times, and she was seated across the aisle in 18-C. Mucklow states that at takeoff the hijacker was using several seats and was occupied with opening one of the parachutes and attempting to pack the money in the parachute container and attach it to his body using the parachute (container’s) straps …

(2)   When Mucklow returned to the plane with the last back pack chute, she saw that the hijacker had one of the small chutes open and was cutting nylon cords out with his pocket knife. He took the nylon cord and wrapped it around the neck of the money bag numerous times and then he wrapped it a few times from top to bottom, and with the same piece (of cord)  he made a loop like a handle at the top. This nylon cord was pinkish in color. He appeared irritated that they hadn’t given him a knapsack for the money as requested, and after trying to put the money in an unfolded parachute, he decided to leave it in the canvas bag (and fabricate a holding line for that, instead).   

(3)   The plane took off (with the rear door ajar) and she held her ears because of the loud noise from the engines. Approximately four minutes after take off he stood up and told her to go the cockpit and close the first class curtain, and for no one to come back behind the curtain. The lights were out in the rear compartment and she went forward, faced the curtain, (and turned around and looked?) and the last time she saw him he had a nylon cord tied around his waste and he was standing in the isle. Before she secured the curtain she called back and pleaded with him to take the bomb with him or disarm it before he left.   

7:54 pm    t1   
MSP:      As soon as reasonably sure the man has left the quicker you can land.
305:       Roger. Miss Mucklow said he apparently has the knapsack around him
and thinks he will attempt a jump. 
MSP:      Roger. After leaving this freq go to 131.8 we have direct phone patch
There (to Company and FBI)
305:       Roger.

No mention of the brief case in regard to money in any interview or crew statement.

*ref SA Campbell interviews (2), Reno interview, PI Transcript.

Why would Cooper use the briefcase for transporting his money?  Its shape is awkward -- tying a rectangular prism-shaped object to his body would have been so unwieldy and so much more gawdy than what it appears he must have done -- securing the money bag first, then attaching the money bag to his person -- using the chord from one of the parachutes.  As I said earlier, I would think he would have found a way to secure the money to his body as best he could -- since that was the prize he had just risked his life and everything to get.  I don't see him taking unnecessary risks that might cause the money to get separated from him.  The briefcase would present such a risk -- it could break up, get ripped apart -- and out goes the money.  Rather, I think he made great effort to secure the money the best possible way -- into the bag first, tied up, then onto his body -- secured with a length of parachute chord.  The evidence seems to indicate that is, in fact, what he did.
Meyer

Agree. He was adapting to not having been given the knapsack. He tried a front pack container but was not satisfied with that. No D rings on the back chute to attach the front pack to as 377 etal have pointed out; no good place to tie the front pack container to. So he tried to tie off the original money bag and attached it around his waste. Tina's description of him tying/securing the money bag is very detailed. He was obviously concerned with the strength of the attachment. He has tried two (or more) alternatives. Nowhere does he opt for trying the briefcase as a money container due to strength factors and no good way to tie a briefcase off. The large coarse bank bag is a proven strong container (actually tested - drop test designed!). He is adapting with the resources given to expedite things. He is following protocols learned somewhere in his past - military?

It's not that he could not have kept and used the briefcase - its that he was seen trying other solutions. He could also have tucked bundles of bills inside his clothing, for cushioning. But he wasn't seen doing that. There was plenty of time between when Tina left and he bailed for him to try other things nobody saw.

I just cant see anything known that obligates him using a briefcase, or implies or requires he did.

And, as far as Shreuder's comments go if part of a briefcase had been found during the excavation I am confident that would have leaked out or been reported as front page news. And none of the agents I spoke to who were at the excavation report a briefcase (or part of one) was found. Keep in mind Dorwin wasn't even at Tina Bar after noon of the second day.   

Flyjack says the briefcase theory simplifies things. How? I think there has to be definite proof that a briefcase was found at Tina Bar and until that happens we have no choice but to proceed on the evidence known. At the very least the timeline on the FBI flight path would have to be changed to accommodate Flyjack's briefcase theory.

Im open to evidence but it does have to be 'evidence' vs. pure conjecture.       
« Last Edit: May 04, 2017, 04:54:07 AM by georger »
 

FLYJACK

  • Guest
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2874 on: May 04, 2017, 10:41:44 AM »
Georger and Meyer,

Appreciate your questions..

Let's clearly define this "explanation" which obviously can't be proven or disproven.

The common belief/assumed premise is that the hijacker left the plane at the exact same time as the money found on TBAR. We know that doesn't fit the FBI LZ, V23 and TBAR. There is NO good simple explanation that pulls it all together. So, I question the assumption.

I posit the idea based on logical inference, what if the premise that all the money and the hijacker left the plane at the same time for which there is no evidence is wrong.

If some of the money hung on the plane (Airstairs) for only 5-7 minutes after the hijacker left then everything makes sense, V23, FBI LZ and TBAR.

It is very reasonable to think of a scenario where the hijacker loses some money, somehow, trying to descend the Airstairs. That money falls into the Columbia 5-7 minutes later. I believe the briefcase would be the most likely as it is rigid and consistent with a container going through the dredge but maybe not.

Of course there is no evidence to prove or disprove this, it is an "explanation" of logical inference.

Don't focus on the briefcase. The money could have been in something else. WHO KNOWS.

Focus on this idea, if SOME money (somehow) left the plane 5-7 minutes after the hijacker it would have landed in the Columbia River, the hijacker in FBI LZ and some money 7-8 miles upstream of TBAR.

Frankly, I have never heard a better "explanation" that pulls everything together so simply. This can't be proven or disproved but neither can the premise that all the money and the hijacker left the plane together.

My detailed post about the technical operation of the Airstairs gives insight into the conditions on the Airstairs and the difference between the main control and emergency release.

All I am doing is questioning an unproven premise and exploring another unproven premise which happens to make everything fit better...  maybe others can envision another scenario where the hijacker losses control of some money and it leaves the plane 5-7 minutes after him. I just used the briefcase as most likely, it is rigid and would have protected the money all the way to TBAR.

This comes down to a binary condition, neither can be proven.

Either,
A. all the money left the plane with the hijacker
B. or it didn't.

If A then FBI LZ, V23 and TBAR don't make sense.
If B then FBI LZ, V23 and TBAR make sense.

Logical inference supports B. (of course it is only an "explanation")
« Last Edit: May 04, 2017, 11:08:25 AM by FLYJACK »
 

Offline Kermit

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 361
  • Thanked: 108 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2875 on: May 04, 2017, 11:17:48 AM »
If we are simply trying to figure out any possible way the Small amount of money could have possibly ended up at Tina Bar, i think there are endless different ways ! First problem is time ! Did the money arrive in river on night of highjacking ? Nobody is certain of that. Let's remember that this all started at Portland airport and how did he get there ? Cab, car, bike, boat, walk, friend or ? Perhaps his escape requires him to cross river to get to his escape vehicle ? There is the Interstate bridge and a train bridge plus the boat  possibilities. I have no idea how or when some of the money got to Tina Bar but just saying there ARE LOTS of possibilities just as logical as a briefcase staying on stairs for 5 to 7 minutes after Cooper bails out. IF a briefcase was found at Tina Bar, more credit is given to Flyjack's explanation. I welcome opinions, theories, hypothesis, etc and perhaps one might turn out to be correct but I'm more able to work with facts. Of course we are short on facts in the DBC caper.
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1024 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2876 on: May 04, 2017, 11:22:09 AM »
You kind of have to focus on the briefcase. if he used the chest pack, where did the chute go? we don't have a lot of options. Cooper's main goal appears to be the money, if so, he wasn't very prepared if he allows his hard earned money to get away from him, at least prior to departure. the briefcase is smooth, not much would keep it on the stairs. I would tend to believe the stairs were not steady enough to hold the case very long, or even balance the case on them?

I think originally, his intention was to put the money in the chute. that part must not of been thought out due to his getting the wrong bag. he wasn't prepared for that, but separating the money puts it at more risk in my opinion?
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1024 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2877 on: May 04, 2017, 11:24:05 AM »
Quote
Did the money arrive in river on night of highjacking ?

Hopefully, our project will help resolve some of these issue's....

 

FLYJACK

  • Guest
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2878 on: May 04, 2017, 11:27:06 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
If we are simply trying to figure out any possible way the Small amount of money could have possibly ended up at Tina Bar, i think there are endless different ways ! First problem is time ! Did the money arrive in river on night of highjacking ? Nobody is certain of that. Let's remember that this all started at Portland airport and how did he get there ? Cab, car, bike, boat, walk, friend or ? Perhaps his escape requires him to cross river to get to his escape vehicle ? There is the Interstate bridge and a train bridge plus the boat  possibilities. I have no idea how or when some of the money got to Tina Bar but just saying there ARE LOTS of possibilities just as logical as a briefcase staying on stairs for 5 to 7 minutes after Cooper bails out. IF a briefcase was found at Tina Bar, more credit is given to Flyjack's explanation. I welcome opinions, theories, hypothesis, etc and perhaps one might turn out to be correct but I'm more able to work with facts. Of course we are short on facts in the DBC caper.

There is no evidence or reasonable "explanation" that puts (virtually intact) money on TBAR and maintains FBI LZ. That has been the problem since 1980.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2017, 11:49:48 AM by FLYJACK »
 

FLYJACK

  • Guest
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2879 on: May 04, 2017, 11:41:19 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You kind of have to focus on the briefcase. if he used the chest pack, where did the chute go? we don't have a lot of options. Cooper's main goal appears to be the money, if so, he wasn't very prepared if he allows his hard earned money to get away from him, at least prior to departure. the briefcase is smooth, not much would keep it on the stairs. I would tend to believe the stairs were not steady enough to hold the case very long, or even balance the case on them?

I think originally, his intention was to put the money in the chute. that part must not of been thought out due to his getting the wrong bag. he wasn't prepared for that, but separating the money puts it at more risk in my opinion?

Was the money all stuffed in one "container"? pockets? wrapped in pieces of chute? canvas bag? briefcase? chest pack? did he descend forward or backward?

Could he have tripped or fallen in the Airstairs, it isn't inconceivable to imagine a scenario where some money became separated.

Another thing to note, he tried to use the main Airstairs control but failed, returned to comm system and talked to pilots, then went back down the Airstairs to eventually pull the emergency system. Now, if you partially descend the Airstairs loaded up with chute(s) and money how easy is it to turn around and go back to the comm system? The Airstairs are 2' 8" wide between rails.

I have read that ALL the money was about 1 ft x 1 ft x (either 8-9 inches or 1ft).
« Last Edit: May 04, 2017, 11:47:52 AM by FLYJACK »