Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find  (Read 1268597 times)

MeyerLouie

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2850 on: April 28, 2017, 01:24:30 AM »
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If Cooper peeled the placard off might a print still be on it?

When you peel something off, you apply a lot of thumb to finger pressure which should leave a pretty good print. Might even be a print preserved on the adhesive side.

I have seen literally hundreds of stickers applied to the inside and OUTSIDE of skydiving jumpships and they seem to stay in place for years.

377

I've always thought he ripped it off in anger while trying to get the stairs down.

it's far to late for prints. dozens probably handled it over the years.his would of been smeared, more than likely anyway.


Not only that, if you rip a placard off in anger, I hear the anger will dissolve the finger prints.  The emolients created from this horrible emotion seep through the skin and destroy all traces of oil on the epidermis -- thus making any fingerprint virtually useless.  Anger destroys a lot of things like that, you know.  Just ask Tom Kaye.  He's our science guy, he knows about things like that.  I hear he's brought on Robert Blevins as a consultant on such matters.  They call 'em as they see 'em, and if they don't see 'em, they make 'em up!  Tom and Robert are modern day equivalents of Rowan and Martin -- the comedy team from Laugh-In.  They take their humor very seriously -- they're funny that way, you know. 

Some people claim to have heard Tom Kaye say, "You know, everywhere I go, there I am.  Is that a common thing, or is that just me?"  You've probably heard Tom Kaye's motto:  "If you get to it, do it.  If you get to it and can't do it, then here's to it you don't get to it to do it again!"

I told my friends I work for the FBI.  They said, "Wow, that must really be exciting."  Bruce Smith said, "That really sucks!"  I said, "No, you've got the wrong idea....FBI....I'm a Fuckin' Boiler Inspector!" 

Got a strong urge to add some real substance to the conversation this evening....

Meyer
 

Offline 377

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2851 on: April 28, 2017, 12:44:21 PM »
Meyer,

Whats your opinion on the likelihood that the FBI "lost" the cig butts?

I know it requires speculation, but I just cant see them losing catalogued evidence in a major case.

I wish the FBI had lost key evidence in some of the federal criminal cases I lost. But no such luck. They were unfailingly meticulous in evidence preservation and chain of custody protocols.

377
« Last Edit: April 28, 2017, 12:44:48 PM by 377 »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2852 on: April 28, 2017, 07:59:13 PM »
I don't find it strange that they could go missing. I've seen many cases where this happens, specially, if it's a cold case.

Given there record of losing things, and hiding evidence certainly brings up a red flag. they deliberately buried evidence in the escape from Alcatraz. they do appear to have a chip on the shoulder when they are stumped..
 

MeyerLouie

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2853 on: April 28, 2017, 10:49:44 PM »
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Meyer,

Whats your opinion on the likelihood that the FBI "lost" the cig butts?

I know it requires speculation, but I just cant see them losing catalogued evidence in a major case.

I wish the FBI had lost key evidence in some of the federal criminal cases I lost. But no such luck. They were unfailingly meticulous in evidence preservation and chain of custody protocols.

377

I guess I was being a bit sarcastic in my post about the "lost" cigarette butts.  I am hard-pressed to actually believe the cigarette butts actually got lost (as Geoffrey Gray claims, by the way) for the very same reason you stated - big case, cataloged evidence, the importance of preserving the chain of evidence.  It's just that it's been repeated so many times over the years that the FBI lost the butts -- I get a little irritated every time I hear that.  I've always suspected the FBI was holding out on us until they felt they had a real suspect to link up with the DNA from cigarette butts.  However, the FBI has done some very strange things -- to the point of seeming negligent, irresponsible, and incompetent.  They've certainly kept us guessing over the years.  In any event, I find it hard to believe that one of the best, key pieces of evidence actually got lost, but you don't really know.....

Meyer
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2854 on: April 28, 2017, 10:52:22 PM »
The FBI has admitted they are lost, I'm not going by what ever Gray said?

We are talking about a 40+ year old case sitting on shelves, probably being moved around from time to time. employee's coming and going over the years each doing things differently...

A while back in Arizona, they almost threw away the original transcripts from the "gun fight at the OK coral" complete with "do not destroy" written on the outside....

It's possible they are being deceptive about it, but I have my doubts. we have trouble keeping a pair of socks after laundry  >:D
« Last Edit: April 28, 2017, 11:13:17 PM by Shutter »
 

MeyerLouie

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2855 on: April 28, 2017, 11:15:47 PM »
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If Cooper peeled the placard off might a print still be on it?

When you peel something off, you apply a lot of thumb to finger pressure which should leave a pretty good print. Might even be a print preserved on the adhesive side.

I have seen literally hundreds of stickers applied to the inside and OUTSIDE of skydiving jumpships and they seem to stay in place for years.

377

I've always thought he ripped it off in anger while trying to get the stairs down.

it's far to late for prints. dozens probably handled it over the years.his would of been smeared, more than likely anyway.


Not only that, if you rip a placard off in anger, I hear the anger will dissolve the finger prints.  The emolients created from this horrible emotion seep through the skin and destroy all traces of oil on the epidermis -- thus making any fingerprint virtually useless.  Anger destroys a lot of things like that, you know.  Just ask Tom Kaye.  He's our science guy, he knows about things like that.  I hear he's brought on Robert Blevins as a consultant on such matters.  They call 'em as they see 'em, and if they don't see 'em, they make 'em up!  Tom and Robert are modern day equivalents of Rowan and Martin -- the comedy team from Laugh-In.  They take their humor very seriously -- they're funny that way, you know. 

Some people claim to have heard Tom Kaye say, "You know, everywhere I go, there I am.  Is that a common thing, or is that just me?"  You've probably heard Tom Kaye's motto:  "If you get to it, do it.  If you get to it and can't do it, then here's to it you don't get to it to do it again!"

I told my friends I work for the FBI.  They said, "Wow, that must really be exciting."  Bruce Smith said, "That really sucks!"  I said, "No, you've got the wrong idea....FBI....I'm a Fuckin' Boiler Inspector!" 

Got a strong urge to add some real substance to the conversation this evening....

Meyer

-------------------------------

You're not going to believe this.  Blevins sent me a couple of real angry, ugly emails about the post above.  This guy went on a rant that lasted for paragraphs. He repeated my entire post above, then went on his rant.  I took a few jabs at TK, RMB, Bruce, and others, but it was all meant to be in good fun.  Blevins saw no humor in it at all.   Blevins actually believes I was serious, he said it twice.  He said he's never met Tom Kaye, he's never consulted with him, and on and on and on......He called me a liar, he referred to y'all as my "gutter-sniffing friends," he totally bad-mouthed us and our forum here -- essentially calling us ineffective has-beens, all washed up, a bunch of nothings.   

I laughed a lot.  Unbelievable.  Blevins is one toxic, angry, insecure guy.  This  jerk can rant all he wants.  I'm beginning to think he's got split personality issues.  His movie deal is just around the corner and that $30,000 that was there for the taking is now unavailable.  I think he suffers from delusions of grandeur -- truly a legend in his own mind.  It's entertaining, that's for sure.

Meyer
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2856 on: April 28, 2017, 11:22:37 PM »
He's a lost "snowflake"

He's not worth discussion what so ever. he speaks of hatred with us, but read his emails, full of hatred....

Let him scream all he wants, it's nothing new....it's OLD NEWS...

If you are reading this now, give me a call....
« Last Edit: April 28, 2017, 11:23:33 PM by Shutter »
 

Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2857 on: April 29, 2017, 02:42:46 AM »
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A while back in Arizona, they almost threw away the original transcripts from the "gun fight at the OK coral" complete with "do not destroy" written on the outside....


Shutter is correct about this.  The local county officials had been moving into new buildings and those files were found in a forgotten store room.  There was a picture of the local county's Clerk of the Courts, a lady I happen to know, in the media with her white "archive" gloves on going through those files after they were discovered.  She organized them and sent them to the State Archives where they now reside.
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2858 on: May 02, 2017, 12:07:07 PM »
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To any outdoorsman familiar with the area, there is no reason to believe he perished because of the weather. Perhaps I'm the only one to believe it but the weather wasn't all that bad. No snow, no ice storm and no violent winds. Like I said before, I've delivered mail in far worse weather than that night in my 28 years of carrying mail in the Portland area ! I always wore wool socks and wool underwear and I never was cold when hunting in extreme cold. I'm sure many don't believe but I have stories and photos to prove my point ! As far as how the Money ended up at Tina Bar, that's anyone's guess! I'm only giving my opinion as to could he survive.

You asked about the placard find. Here from my notes:

found by two hunters hiking on Silver Lake in November 1978, hunting on land owned by the Smith family. (Kaye will contact the family and get gps). One of the hunters is Carroll Hicks of Kelso who died in 1999 at Kelso, Wa.  This is off a Weyerhaueser Company logging road north of Ariel. Second hunter name unknown at present. These guys have hunted this area with others for years and are well known. (source to family is VH at Vancouver who also hunts this area and knew the men...) 

Kermit this should lead you to the men and the placard site although it is ancient history today. Hicks and his wife had family at Kelso.

article attached ... source unknown.

The GPS coordinates should already be on Tom's web page.  I used those coordinates in the placard drift analysis.  Tom provided the coordinates to me, and they may have already been on the page, but they should certainly have been there after the analysis.   

they arent. never were so far as I know. why dont you give them to us?  ;)  Tom has revised his website from its original content, in any event. Those gps coordinates are proprietary for Tom ? 

The inescapable conclusion, since nothing else has surfaced to change it, is that the FBI flight path is correct and Cooper bailed somewhere near Ariel, survived, and walked with the money south - some of which surfaces at Tena Bar on the Columbia near Vancouver. Maybe he had a hot date waiting with a crew member on a Russian submarine waiting ...

Try the following:

46 degrees, 14 minutes, 35.4 seconds North Latitude.

122 degrees, 41 minutes, 1.0 seconds West Longitude.

Elevation was about 1500 feet Above Sea Level.

The Placard shows at 1320 ft..

If anyone goes out there to look there is probably still an access door out there in the woods from the "Emergency Airstair Release" system that may have the other 1/4 of the Placard attached.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2017, 12:10:59 PM by FLYJACK »
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2859 on: May 02, 2017, 12:31:56 PM »
The reason TBAR makes no sense is because EVERYONE starts with the assumption that the hijacker and the TBAR money must have left the plane at the exact same time. This is "unknown".

It is a logical error to hold fast to the premise that the Hijacker left the plane at the exact time as all the money/briefcase. If the money/briefcase left the plane just minutes after the hijacker then the V23 flightpath, FBI LZ and TBAR money find all make sense. EVERYTHING GETS PULLED TOGETHER.

It is reasonable to theorize that the hijacker lost control of the briefcase in those Airstair conditions and it may have fallen from the Airstairs some minutes later into the Columbia River. If he had put some of the money in the briefcase and it fell into the the Columbia River drainage area floating, flooding and dredging puts the money on TBAR. The hijacker leaves the plane over land on V23 near the FBI LZ and the briefcase/money falls minutes later into the Columbia River drainage system, this theory fits everything. If the money went through the dredge it must have been in a protective container and that would have been the briefcase. Further note but unconfirmed and point of argument, the FBI agent told Bruce that there was part of a briefcase found, this was walked back as a senior’s moment. Perhaps so, but it is common for FBI to withhold specific info from the public and it is extremely rare for an FBI agent to fabricate a piece of evidence. This can’t be dismissed, we just don’t know. The FBI agent may have forgot that it was withheld info then walked it back. Even if a piece of the briefcase wasn’t found it doesn’t change the theory.

Further, the drop test after pic shows the Airstair side panel completely peeled back intact while the hijacked plane shows vertical and horizontal shredding on the lower portion of the panels, The panel damage pattern is completely different. The damage to the hijacked plane Airstairs panels looks consistent with sharp internal impacts like a loose briefcase flying back and forth inside partially lowered Airstairs.
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2860 on: May 02, 2017, 02:19:44 PM »
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The reason TBAR makes no sense is because EVERYONE starts with the assumption that the hijacker and the TBAR money must have left the plane at the exact same time. This is "unknown".

It is a logical error to hold fast to the premise that the Hijacker left the plane at the exact time as all the money/briefcase. If the money/briefcase left the plane just minutes after the hijacker then the V23 flightpath, FBI LZ and TBAR money find all make sense. EVERYTHING GETS PULLED TOGETHER.

It is reasonable to theorize that the hijacker lost control of the briefcase in those Airstair conditions and it may have fallen from the Airstairs some minutes later into the Columbia River. If he had put some of the money in the briefcase and it fell into the the Columbia River drainage area floating, flooding and dredging puts the money on TBAR. The hijacker leaves the plane over land on V23 near the FBI LZ and the briefcase/money falls minutes later into the Columbia River drainage system, this theory fits everything. If the money went through the dredge it must have been in a protective container and that would have been the briefcase. Further note but unconfirmed and point of argument, the FBI agent told Bruce that there was part of a briefcase found, this was walked back as a senior’s moment. Perhaps so, but it is common for FBI to withhold specific info from the public and it is extremely rare for an FBI agent to fabricate a piece of evidence. This can’t be dismissed, we just don’t know. The FBI agent may have forgot that it was withheld info then walked it back. Even if a piece of the briefcase wasn’t found it doesn’t change the theory.

Further, the drop test after pic shows the Airstair side panel completely peeled back intact while the hijacked plane shows vertical and horizontal shredding on the lower portion of the panels, The panel damage pattern is completely different. The damage to the hijacked plane Airstairs panels looks consistent with sharp internal impacts like a loose briefcase flying back and forth inside partially lowered Airstairs.

total fabrication. we have been this before with you and Cousin Bruce. Good luck!
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2861 on: May 02, 2017, 02:30:16 PM »
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The reason TBAR makes no sense is because EVERYONE starts with the assumption that the hijacker and the TBAR money must have left the plane at the exact same time. This is "unknown".

It is a logical error to hold fast to the premise that the Hijacker left the plane at the exact time as all the money/briefcase. If the money/briefcase left the plane just minutes after the hijacker then the V23 flightpath, FBI LZ and TBAR money find all make sense. EVERYTHING GETS PULLED TOGETHER.

It is reasonable to theorize that the hijacker lost control of the briefcase in those Airstair conditions and it may have fallen from the Airstairs some minutes later into the Columbia River. If he had put some of the money in the briefcase and it fell into the the Columbia River drainage area floating, flooding and dredging puts the money on TBAR. The hijacker leaves the plane over land on V23 near the FBI LZ and the briefcase/money falls minutes later into the Columbia River drainage system, this theory fits everything. If the money went through the dredge it must have been in a protective container and that would have been the briefcase. Further note but unconfirmed and point of argument, the FBI agent told Bruce that there was part of a briefcase found, this was walked back as a senior’s moment. Perhaps so, but it is common for FBI to withhold specific info from the public and it is extremely rare for an FBI agent to fabricate a piece of evidence. This can’t be dismissed, we just don’t know. The FBI agent may have forgot that it was withheld info then walked it back. Even if a piece of the briefcase wasn’t found it doesn’t change the theory.

Further, the drop test after pic shows the Airstair side panel completely peeled back intact while the hijacked plane shows vertical and horizontal shredding on the lower portion of the panels, The panel damage pattern is completely different. The damage to the hijacked plane Airstairs panels looks consistent with sharp internal impacts like a loose briefcase flying back and forth inside partially lowered Airstairs.

total fabrication. we have been this before with you and Cousin Bruce. Good luck!

It is called a theory,

It is reasonable, plausible and simply ties everything together better than any other theory...

The briefcase/money just left the plane a few minutes after the hijacker..  and it all makes sense. TBAR, V23 and the FBI LZ...

Resistance is futile....  it just works...

 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2862 on: May 02, 2017, 03:05:21 PM »
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The reason TBAR makes no sense is because EVERYONE starts with the assumption that the hijacker and the TBAR money must have left the plane at the exact same time. This is "unknown".

It is a logical error to hold fast to the premise that the Hijacker left the plane at the exact time as all the money/briefcase. If the money/briefcase left the plane just minutes after the hijacker then the V23 flightpath, FBI LZ and TBAR money find all make sense. EVERYTHING GETS PULLED TOGETHER.

It is reasonable to theorize that the hijacker lost control of the briefcase in those Airstair conditions and it may have fallen from the Airstairs some minutes later into the Columbia River. If he had put some of the money in the briefcase and it fell into the the Columbia River drainage area floating, flooding and dredging puts the money on TBAR. The hijacker leaves the plane over land on V23 near the FBI LZ and the briefcase/money falls minutes later into the Columbia River drainage system, this theory fits everything. If the money went through the dredge it must have been in a protective container and that would have been the briefcase. Further note but unconfirmed and point of argument, the FBI agent told Bruce that there was part of a briefcase found, this was walked back as a senior’s moment. Perhaps so, but it is common for FBI to withhold specific info from the public and it is extremely rare for an FBI agent to fabricate a piece of evidence. This can’t be dismissed, we just don’t know. The FBI agent may have forgot that it was withheld info then walked it back. Even if a piece of the briefcase wasn’t found it doesn’t change the theory.

Further, the drop test after pic shows the Airstair side panel completely peeled back intact while the hijacked plane shows vertical and horizontal shredding on the lower portion of the panels, The panel damage pattern is completely different. The damage to the hijacked plane Airstairs panels looks consistent with sharp internal impacts like a loose briefcase flying back and forth inside partially lowered Airstairs.

total fabrication. we have been this before with you and Cousin Bruce. Good luck!

It is called a theory,

It is reasonable, plausible and simply ties everything together better than any other theory...

The briefcase/money just left the plane a few minutes after the hijacker..  and it all makes sense. TBAR, V23 and the FBI LZ...

Resistance is futile....  it just works...

well a lot of things "make sense" .......... until you are 80,000ft in the air and see the curvature of the Earth!  :))

Knee bone fits the leg bone fits the hip bone .... toss them bones and see what you git!  8)
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2863 on: May 02, 2017, 03:09:29 PM »
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The reason TBAR makes no sense is because EVERYONE starts with the assumption that the hijacker and the TBAR money must have left the plane at the exact same time. This is "unknown".

It is a logical error to hold fast to the premise that the Hijacker left the plane at the exact time as all the money/briefcase. If the money/briefcase left the plane just minutes after the hijacker then the V23 flightpath, FBI LZ and TBAR money find all make sense. EVERYTHING GETS PULLED TOGETHER.

It is reasonable to theorize that the hijacker lost control of the briefcase in those Airstair conditions and it may have fallen from the Airstairs some minutes later into the Columbia River. If he had put some of the money in the briefcase and it fell into the the Columbia River drainage area floating, flooding and dredging puts the money on TBAR. The hijacker leaves the plane over land on V23 near the FBI LZ and the briefcase/money falls minutes later into the Columbia River drainage system, this theory fits everything. If the money went through the dredge it must have been in a protective container and that would have been the briefcase. Further note but unconfirmed and point of argument, the FBI agent told Bruce that there was part of a briefcase found, this was walked back as a senior’s moment. Perhaps so, but it is common for FBI to withhold specific info from the public and it is extremely rare for an FBI agent to fabricate a piece of evidence. This can’t be dismissed, we just don’t know. The FBI agent may have forgot that it was withheld info then walked it back. Even if a piece of the briefcase wasn’t found it doesn’t change the theory.

Further, the drop test after pic shows the Airstair side panel completely peeled back intact while the hijacked plane shows vertical and horizontal shredding on the lower portion of the panels, The panel damage pattern is completely different. The damage to the hijacked plane Airstairs panels looks consistent with sharp internal impacts like a loose briefcase flying back and forth inside partially lowered Airstairs.

total fabrication. we have been this before with you and Cousin Bruce. Good luck!

It is called a theory,

It is reasonable, plausible and simply ties everything together better than any other theory...

The briefcase/money just left the plane a few minutes after the hijacker..  and it all makes sense. TBAR, V23 and the FBI LZ...

Resistance is futile....  it just works...

well a lot of things "make sense" .......... until you are 80,000ft in the air and see the curvature of the Earth!  :))

Knee bone fits the leg bone fits the hip bone .... toss them bones and see what you git!  8)

not really, do you have a better theory that pulls everything together so neatly..

 

Offline MarkBennett

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #2864 on: May 02, 2017, 03:38:16 PM »
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The reason TBAR makes no sense is because EVERYONE starts with the assumption that the hijacker and the TBAR money must have left the plane at the exact same time. This is "unknown".

It is a logical error to hold fast to the premise that the Hijacker left the plane at the exact time as all the money/briefcase. If the money/briefcase left the plane just minutes after the hijacker then the V23 flightpath, FBI LZ and TBAR money find all make sense. EVERYTHING GETS PULLED TOGETHER.

It is reasonable to theorize that the hijacker lost control of the briefcase in those Airstair conditions and it may have fallen from the Airstairs some minutes later into the Columbia River. If he had put some of the money in the briefcase and it fell into the the Columbia River drainage area floating, flooding and dredging puts the money on TBAR. The hijacker leaves the plane over land on V23 near the FBI LZ and the briefcase/money falls minutes later into the Columbia River drainage system, this theory fits everything. If the money went through the dredge it must have been in a protective container and that would have been the briefcase. Further note but unconfirmed and point of argument, the FBI agent told Bruce that there was part of a briefcase found, this was walked back as a senior’s moment. Perhaps so, but it is common for FBI to withhold specific info from the public and it is extremely rare for an FBI agent to fabricate a piece of evidence. This can’t be dismissed, we just don’t know. The FBI agent may have forgot that it was withheld info then walked it back. Even if a piece of the briefcase wasn’t found it doesn’t change the theory.

Further, the drop test after pic shows the Airstair side panel completely peeled back intact while the hijacked plane shows vertical and horizontal shredding on the lower portion of the panels, The panel damage pattern is completely different. The damage to the hijacked plane Airstairs panels looks consistent with sharp internal impacts like a loose briefcase flying back and forth inside partially lowered Airstairs.

total fabrication. we have been this before with you and Cousin Bruce. Good luck!

It is called a theory,

It is reasonable, plausible and simply ties everything together better than any other theory...

The briefcase/money just left the plane a few minutes after the hijacker..  and it all makes sense. TBAR, V23 and the FBI LZ...

Resistance is futile....  it just works...

Technically, I would say it's a hypothesis rather than a theory.  I don't see any problem with presenting hypotheses here to let others try to find the weaknesses in them.