Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find (Read 1597863 times)

georger · « **Reply #2760 on:** April 08, 2017, 11:48:22 PM »

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I have a problem with the "known flight path " statement. I think nobody knows for certain where the flight path actually was 100 %. I'm a Math person and I actually think the location of the flight could be proven thanks to the location of the placard. Lots of variables would have to be taken into consideration like the elevation placard was found, the elevation of airplane, approx wind and direction and of course the exact location where the placard was found. I understand there was a simulation done but I'd like to see a replica of the placard dropped from a plane at the correct height on a day when the wind direction and velocity duplicates the wind on day of jump. I know it sounds complicated but it's simple Math. The drift of placard from drop position would tell you pretty accurately where the airplane was flying when the stairs were lowered. I realize this doesn't prove where the plane crossed the Columbia River but it could easily narrow the path of flt 305.

R99 has tried to address all of these points - its his job!

(said with total affection & respect for R99!)

georger · « **Reply #2761 on:** April 09, 2017, 12:52:04 AM »

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I have a problem with the "known flight path " statement. I think nobody knows for certain where the flight path actually was 100 %. I'm a Math person and I actually think the location of the flight could be proven thanks to the location of the placard. Lots of variables would have to be taken into consideration like the elevation placard was found, the elevation of airplane, approx wind and direction and of course the exact location where the placard was found. I understand there was a simulation done but I'd like to see a replica of the placard dropped from a plane at the correct height on a day when the wind direction and velocity duplicates the wind on day of jump. I know it sounds complicated but it's simple Math. The drift of placard from drop position would tell you pretty accurately where the airplane was flying when the stairs were lowered. I realize this doesn't prove where the plane crossed the Columbia River but it could easily narrow the path of flt 305.

I think R99 has identified something compelling, when he says in a prior post:

R99 quote: "Nevertheless, when the crew thought Cooper had jumped, the co-pilot, by his own admission, told the Center controllers to "mark your maps". He obviously did not know their exact position at that time or else he would have told the controllers where they were. This means they were NOT on V-23 at that point and were just flying vectors as directed by the controllers."

As I recall this, R2 told both R99 and me that 305 was 'basically flying down the center line of V23'. And he added: "I was giving them vectors and updates, especially when 305 was nearing Portland where we were trying to join them up with a T33 ...".

What caught my attention in R99's post was the words "just flying vectors as directed by the controllers" which is exactly what R2 described doing with 305, especially in the vicinity of Vancouver-Portland. And Rataczak told everyone to "mark your maps" but he did not give an 'exact position'. Rataczak has told a number of people over the years 'he did not know exactly where they were', and him saying that continuously is documented.

Thus, this is why clarifying the options mathematically is important. Which is what R99 has tried to do.

Robert99 · « **Reply #2762 on:** April 09, 2017, 01:01:51 AM »

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I have a problem with the "known flight path " statement. I think nobody knows for certain where the flight path actually was 100 %. I'm a Math person and I actually think the location of the flight could be proven thanks to the location of the placard. Lots of variables would have to be taken into consideration like the elevation placard was found, the elevation of airplane, approx wind and direction and of course the exact location where the placard was found. I understand there was a simulation done but I'd like to see a replica of the placard dropped from a plane at the correct height on a day when the wind direction and velocity duplicates the wind on day of jump. I know it sounds complicated but it's simple Math. The drift of placard from drop position would tell you pretty accurately where the airplane was flying when the stairs were lowered. I realize this doesn't prove where the plane crossed the Columbia River but it could easily narrow the path of flt 305.

R99 has tried to address all of these points - its his job! (said with total affection & respect for R99!)

Georger, did you mean up-stream a couple of posts back?

Kermit, here are some of the problems with determining the actual flight path. The FBI has redacted all information useful to determining the flight path from the Seattle ATC radio transcripts. You should read and compare the Seattle ATC radio transcripts with the transcripts from the SEATAC tower, Oakland ATC, and Reno tower. There are 19 redactions in the Seattle ATC transcript and none whatsoever in the other transcripts from the other three facilities.

I have personally initiated three FOIA requests with the FBI and FAA trying to get the original and complete Seattle ATC transcript. Nothing of any consequence came of these efforts despite two interventions at the Congressional level by my US Representative.

There are any number of reasons for believing that the airliner bypassed Portland on the west side including evidence shown on the so-called "FBI map" (actually, the FBI doesn't know where that map came from), any number of interviews conducted by Georger with people in the Portland area, the flight crew, and many, many other factors.

I would suggest you read the thread on this site where I discussed the flight path problem in great detail.

I have probably had as much training as you in fields related to engineering mathematics. I am also a retired Aeronautical Engineer, retired general aviation and sports aircraft pilot, and have a limited amount of skydiving experience. And I hold the FAA Ground Instructor Ratings for the related aviation fields mentioned above.

Robert99

ADDENDUM: Georger's post just above is correct!

R99

georger · « **Reply #2763 on:** April 09, 2017, 01:53:28 AM »

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I have a problem with the "known flight path " statement. I think nobody knows for certain where the flight path actually was 100 %. I'm a Math person and I actually think the location of the flight could be proven thanks to the location of the placard. Lots of variables would have to be taken into consideration like the elevation placard was found, the elevation of airplane, approx wind and direction and of course the exact location where the placard was found. I understand there was a simulation done but I'd like to see a replica of the placard dropped from a plane at the correct height on a day when the wind direction and velocity duplicates the wind on day of jump. I know it sounds complicated but it's simple Math. The drift of placard from drop position would tell you pretty accurately where the airplane was flying when the stairs were lowered. I realize this doesn't prove where the plane crossed the Columbia River but it could easily narrow the path of flt 305.

R99 has tried to address all of these points - its his job! (said with total affection & respect for R99!)

Georger, did you mean up-stream a couple of posts back?

Kermit, here are some of the problems with determining the actual flight path. The FBI has redacted all information useful to determining the flight path from the Seattle ATC radio transcripts. You should read and compare the Seattle ATC radio transcripts with the transcripts from the SEATAC tower, Oakland ATC, and Reno tower. There are 19 redactions in the Seattle ATC transcript and none whatsoever in the other transcripts from the other three facilities.

I have personally initiated three FOIA requests with the FBI and FAA trying to get the original and complete Seattle ATC transcript. Nothing of any consequence came of these efforts despite two interventions at the Congressional level by my US Representative.

There are any number of reasons for believing that the airliner bypassed Portland on the west side including evidence shown on the so-called "FBI map" (actually, the FBI doesn't know where that map came from), any number of interviews conducted by Georger with people in the Portland area, the flight crew, and many, many other factors.

I would suggest you read the thread on this site where I discussed the flight path problem in great detail.

I have probably had as much training as you in fields related to engineering mathematics. I am also a retired Aeronautical Engineer, retired general aviation and sports aircraft pilot, and have a limited amount of skydiving experience. And I hold the FAA Ground Instructor Ratings for the related aviation fields mentioned above.

Robert99

ADDENDUM: Georger's post just above is correct!

R99

corrected - thanks!

Kermit · « **Reply #2764 on:** April 09, 2017, 01:26:43 PM »

Robert, your Expertise far exceeds anything I have to offer. I am new here and I'm glad to see we have someone like you here. No doubt there are many other talented individuals on this site. My biggest asset might be that I'm more or less a local who has spent many a day in the area where this Hijacking transpired. My idea in finding the correct flight plan closely parallels the analysis done by Robert Nicholson in 2011. His Math had everything to do with the finding of the placard by 2 hunters in the Toutle area. My thoughts were more on keying on the placard find and how it arrived there. Why do you feel his calculations are inaccurate? BTW what area of the country are you from if I can be so bold to ask ?

georger · « **Reply #2765 on:** April 09, 2017, 02:15:19 PM »

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Robert, your Expertise far exceeds anything I have to offer. I am new here and I'm glad to see we have someone like you here. No doubt there are many other talented individuals on this site. My biggest asset might be that I'm more or less a local who has spent many a day in the area where this Hijacking transpired. My idea in finding the correct flight plan closely parallels the analysis done by Robert Nicholson in 2011. His Math had everything to do with the finding of the placard by 2 hunters in the Toutle area. My thoughts were more on keying on the placard find and how it arrived there. Why do you feel his calculations are inaccurate? BTW what area of the country are you from if I can be so bold to ask ?

R99 here is Robert Nicholson 2011 - one and the same person, if there is any doubt or confusion.

Your familiarity with the area is valuable and a big asset here! Welcome!

Question: do you have any idea what the annual erosion rate is at Tina Bar or is it so varied, year to year, its hard to estimate? I mean what would the vertical loss of sand be at say 20ft back from the water's edge .... or 40ft back where the Ingram find was made in 1980?

I realise I may be asking a question impossible to answer at this late date -

Kermit let me also say, contrary to some claims, we are a very tolerant bunch here as a rule. Our triggers (or at least mine) doesnt go off until provoked or frustrated over a very long period of time. That can happen as for example when someone comes here promoting an suspect they wont even name or identify or give vital facts to what they are claiming, and going on and on about it for months expecting people to support something nobody even knows the full identity of, etc. That usually leads to conflict after months/years of trying to manage the whole situation. Nuff said. Otherwise we are a very tolerant bunch here. I hope you will find that the case.

Robert99 · « **Reply #2766 on:** April 09, 2017, 02:39:54 PM »

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Robert, your Expertise far exceeds anything I have to offer. I am new here and I'm glad to see we have someone like you here. No doubt there are many other talented individuals on this site. My biggest asset might be that I'm more or less a local who has spent many a day in the area where this Hijacking transpired. My idea in finding the correct flight plan closely parallels the analysis done by Robert Nicholson in 2011. His Math had everything to do with the finding of the placard by 2 hunters in the Toutle area. My thoughts were more on keying on the placard find and how it arrived there. Why do you feel his calculations are inaccurate? BTW what area of the country are you from if I can be so bold to ask ?

R99 here is Robert Nicholson 2011 - one and the same person.

Your familiarity with the area is valuable and a big asset here! Welcome!

Kermit,

Could you amplify what you mean by "the analysis done by Robert Nicholson in 2011" and, if you are referring to the original placard analysis that appears on Tom Kaye's web page, please note that there is a more recent one which moves the separation point of the placard from the airliner even further to the southwest.

I made a deliberate effort to be very conservative in those calculations and later it developed that the winds aloft used were on the low side. So the newer calculations used a higher value for the winds aloft and a slightly different wind direction. But the exact winds aloft and direction are still not known and the values I used are still just estimates. If the FBI and/or FAA would release the full Seattle ATC transcript, and they are not going to, then the actual airliner flight path could be determined and any 16 year old student pilot could then calculate the actual winds aloft.

I live in Baja Arizona.

Kermit · « **Reply #2767 on:** April 09, 2017, 10:02:52 PM »

Well now I guess I have egg on my face and am showing that I'm indeed a newbie to this site. I was unaware that Robert99 was indeed the same Robert Nicholson who I was referring to. At least I was admiring Robert's work and agreeing with his methods so I do now see that we are on the same page. Yes it's very unfortunate that accurate information is not available ! I was thinking along slightly different lines of actually doing a real test of dropping a replica from the exact elevation and track it's correct drift. I know ... I'm a dreamer but I don't trust simulations !

Robert99 · « **Reply #2768 on:** April 10, 2017, 12:10:02 AM »

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Well now I guess I have egg on my face and am showing that I'm indeed a newbie to this site. I was unaware that Robert99 was indeed the same Robert Nicholson who I was referring to. At least I was admiring Robert's work and agreeing with his methods so I do now see that we are on the same page. Yes it's very unfortunate that accurate information is not available ! I was thinking along slightly different lines of actually doing a real test of dropping a replica from the exact elevation and track it's correct drift. I know ... I'm a dreamer but I don't trust simulations !

Kermit, you really can't simulate something like the placard descent. There are just too many factors that can't be controlled or duplicated.

Shutter · « **Reply #2769 on:** April 10, 2017, 12:35:15 AM »

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Well now I guess I have egg on my face and am showing that I'm indeed a newbie to this site. I was unaware that Robert99 was indeed the same Robert Nicholson who I was referring to. At least I was admiring Robert's work and agreeing with his methods so I do now see that we are on the same page. Yes it's very unfortunate that accurate information is not available ! I was thinking along slightly different lines of actually doing a real test of dropping a replica from the exact elevation and track it's correct drift. I know ... I'm a dreamer but I don't trust simulations !

Kermit, you really can't simulate something like the placard descent. There are just too many factors that can't be controlled or duplicated.

A program would have to be made for a simulation such is that. similar to what they constructed on the sinking of the Titanic. it would be hard to duplicate in real life, don't know how you could track the thing?

MeyerLouie · « **Reply #2770 on:** April 10, 2017, 01:12:27 AM »

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I have spent most of my life in the Portland area. I can attest to quite a few floods over the years. I had a boat and spent many a days skiing and fishing the mighty Columbia River and of course the Willamette that divides Portland East side and West side. Tides can affect the river flow in both rivers. I have no idea how part of Cooper's money ended up at Tina's Bar but I am open to any theories! However it does seem difficult to come up with any proof one way or the other as to what actually happened to cause part of his loot to end up on Tina's Bar.

One question the FBI and Kaye tried to answer was: where did the money spend it's time between Nov 71 and Feb 1980. So, sediments on and in-between the bills were examined (mainly by the FBI). One theory in 1980 was that the money had spent years in the Washougal River basin then washed down into the Columbia in 1979 or early 1980. But the Washougal River basin is geologically different from the Columbia Basin. The FBI lab analysis found an absence of Washougal type sand and geological products and sand and geological types only consistent with the Columbia River geology in the area that includes Tina Bar. Tom Kaye's later examination failed to find anything in his bills suggesting that the bills had spent time in the Washougal geological region. The FBI noted in it's report that the sand types found in the money were very specific to Columbia River sand types, only.

That result raises a dilemma of just how Cooper money wound up in the Columbia basin when the FBI account has Cooper jumping with the money so many miles north of the Columbia River. Nobody to date has been able to resolve this paradox.

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All evidence points to the Columbia River then. That is the connection between the flight path and Tina Bar -- and the dredge theory can't be ignored either, as a result. So many facts about this case are not definitive, not nailed down, so it seems possible that the FBI was wrong about the jump being so much further north. Why could they be wrong? Despite the biggest manhunt and ground search in US history, nothing or nobody was ever found in the original FBI dropzone. True, there may be evidence buried deep there somewhere that just hasn't been found yet. To date, that doesn't seem to be the case.

georger · « **Reply #2771 on:** April 10, 2017, 01:51:20 AM »

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Well now I guess I have egg on my face and am showing that I'm indeed a newbie to this site. I was unaware that Robert99 was indeed the same Robert Nicholson who I was referring to. At least I was admiring Robert's work and agreeing with his methods so I do now see that we are on the same page. Yes it's very unfortunate that accurate information is not available ! I was thinking along slightly different lines of actually doing a real test of dropping a replica from the exact elevation and track it's correct drift. I know ... I'm a dreamer but I don't trust simulations !

Kermit, you really can't simulate something like the placard descent. There are just too many factors that can't be controlled or duplicated.

It would be a probability problem in any event. Knowing the gps coordinates you could back engineer using 5 or 6 variables and then generate several probability scenarios, then try and assign weights to each of those models. But it is still going to be a probability estimate until concrete data is obtained. I think Tom Kaye tried to test several models ... then decided (for some reason) the FBI fp was basically correct at least in the area of the placard drop?
Only TK could tell us what he did or did not do.

Everyone but R2 seems to agree 305 went around Portland on the west side. R2 was definite about where the T33 and 305 met, near Lake Oswego, and in order to do that even R2 finally conceded a west-path around Portland "may have happened". The whole issue is full of iff's and maybe's then Ckret shows up willing to concede Cooper ,may have bailed later further south than originally thought ... then it turns out Himmelsbach said the same thing in a press conference clear back in 1976!

Do you know anyone at NASA that could run a model of 500 options and give an assessment?

Frankly, after that we might not be one step further than we are tonight! I guess it comes down to what people want to spend their time doing - - - with people rolling their eyes through the whole thing!

Shutter · « **Reply #2772 on:** April 10, 2017, 08:21:08 AM »

The money showing up on the river bank doesn't help Cooper's case for survival. we have a separation between the crime, and the money. based on the video showing frags found at different levels can rule out a plant. how it got there is the million dollar question. IMO it comes down to a couple things, one is the timing of the jump is off, or the path was not as they have stated for the entire period this case has been open.

I still believe it was Cooper who ripped the placard off the wall in frustration, and it made it's way out the back while lying on the stairs.

Kermit, do you still work around the Portland area? we need some eyes on the water levels for our project....

georger · « **Reply #2773 on:** April 10, 2017, 01:24:09 PM »

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The money showing up on the river bank doesn't help Cooper's case for survival. we have a separation between the crime, and the money. based on the video showing frags found at different levels can rule out a plant. how it got there is the million dollar question. IMO it comes down to a couple things, one is the timing of the jump is off, or the path was not as they have stated for the entire period this case has been open.

I still believe it was Cooper who ripped the placard off the wall in frustration, and it made it's way out the back while lying on the stairs.

Kermit, do you still work around the Portland area? we need some eyes on the water levels for our project....

On the other hand, there are people who believe the money at Tina Bar means Cooper survived. These people take the FBI fp and an Ariel drop on faith. These people believe the only way money could have surfaced at Vancouver is if Cooper survived and carried it there himself. Tom Kaye is one of those.

Kermit · « **Reply #2774 on:** April 10, 2017, 01:42:07 PM »

Like I have posted, I live close to the tiny town of Vader which is mile post 59 which means it is 59 miles from the border of Oregon/Washington and of course the mighty Columbia River. Since only locals know where Vader is, it's between the cities of Longview and Chehalis Wa. The Columbia river separates Longview Wa. From Rainer Oregon. I am retired so I no longer work in the Portland area. However I have 2 sons and 2 daughters that reside in Portland area as well as 2 brothers who reside in Portland area. Coincidently my older brother worked for Boeing in the Portland area. Boeing used to buy their airplane parts from Electronic Specialty and ended up purchasing them. No my brother is NOT D.B. Cooper and doesn't know anyone who resembles him. LOL I do go to Portland but probably only once a Month or so. My children prefer to visit me in my peaceful setting and get away from the congestion that has become Portland and feed apples to the deer that show up daily at my home. Right now the river is quite high as the rain is happening as I speak. I'm not sure what level you need the river to recede to but I'll let you know when it does start receding.

Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find (Read 1597863 times)

georger

Re: Tina Bar Money Find

georger

Re: Tina Bar Money Find

Robert99

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georger

Re: Tina Bar Money Find

Kermit

Re: Tina Bar Money Find

georger

Re: Tina Bar Money Find

Robert99

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Kermit

Re: Tina Bar Money Find

Robert99

Re: Tina Bar Money Find

Shutter

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MeyerLouie

Re: Tina Bar Money Find

georger

Re: Tina Bar Money Find

Shutter

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georger

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Kermit

Re: Tina Bar Money Find