Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find  (Read 1506139 times)

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1025 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #270 on: November 23, 2014, 09:27:03 PM »
The lab goes on to say this about the money...

"consistent with being submerged in water and that sand recovered off the money was consistent with silt from the Columbia."

Now, based on that statement it appears the money can survive longer in the water than I thought. nmiwrecks basically said the same thing the lab reported?
 

Offline nmiwrecks

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 387
  • Thanked: 3 times
    • MichiganMysteries.com
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #271 on: November 23, 2014, 09:45:33 PM »
I have seen paper and fabric that has been underwater for over a century survive, but it has been in a place where there is zero water flow, like inside a steamer trunk or in silt in the hold of a ship.  Attached is a photo taken by Craig Passeno of corn that was taken from the hold of the Newell Eddy, which sank in 1893.  The photo was taken in 2006.
"If you always do what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you’ve always got." - Henry Ford
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1025 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #272 on: November 23, 2014, 10:03:59 PM »
I've seen some interesting finds with digging up riverboats. they have all kinds of things preserved on them, but they are no longer in the Mississippi due to the shifting of the river. the show I watch had multiple pumps to keep the water from coming into the dig.
 

Offline nmiwrecks

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 387
  • Thanked: 3 times
    • MichiganMysteries.com
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #273 on: November 23, 2014, 10:51:52 PM »
If you believe, like I do, that the money arrived on the bar via dredging because the money bag landed in the Columbia River, then the flight path (or at least the longitude of it)  becomes irrelevant, because the money drifted or landed where it was dredged or directly on the bar.  If that's the case, then we know approximately when, or I guess where (the latitude) of his jump.  Does this make sense?

"If you always do what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you’ve always got." - Henry Ford
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1025 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #274 on: November 23, 2014, 11:02:51 PM »
Personally I'm not sure about anything with this case. I'm questioning the dismissal of the dredge operation. I'm not sold on the original flight path. it still leaves questions.

We do a have money by the water, and we do have the plane possibly near the money, or definitely upstream from it.


I don't know if you seen this. it's a view from my simulator, and the water around the area.

« Last Edit: November 23, 2014, 11:05:31 PM by shutter »
 

Robert99

  • Guest
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #275 on: November 23, 2014, 11:09:36 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
If you believe, like I do, that the money arrived on the bar via dredging because the money bag landed in the Columbia River, then the flight path (or at least the longitude of it)  becomes irrelevant, because the money drifted or landed where it was dredged or directly on the bar.  If that's the case, then we know approximately when, or I guess where (the latitude) of his jump.  Does this make sense?

Keep an open mind on this a while longer.  Perhaps we can define the flight path a bit better in the near future.  And if so, we may also be able to make a valid statement about whether Cooper died in the jump or perhaps survived.  I have discussed this at length on the DZ thread, but I would like to point out again that the Tina Bar area has some unique topography that, depending on the flight path, has the potential for answering any number of questions.  And the money find at Tina Bar is a key factor in answering those questions.

But even at this time I think it is safe to say that if Cooper had landed in the river itself, he would probably have splashed not very far upstream of Tina Bar and floated right by it before sinking into the shipping channel.
 

Offline BuckwheatFlowers

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 18
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #276 on: November 23, 2014, 11:17:26 PM »
How deep was the Columbia back then.  The part they were dredging out... were they widening the channel at all or just deepening it?
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1025 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #277 on: November 23, 2014, 11:31:02 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
How deep was the Columbia back then.  The part they were dredging out... were they widening the channel at all or just deepening it?

They were only dredging to clear the path for shipping lanes if not mistaken.
 

georger

  • Guest
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #278 on: November 24, 2014, 12:17:14 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Personally I'm not sure about anything with this case. I'm questioning the dismissal of the dredge operation. I'm not sold on the original flight path. it still leaves questions.

We do a have money by the water, and we do have the plane possibly near the money, or definitely upstream from it.


I don't know if you seen this. it's a view from my simulator, and the water around the area.



I think 'dismissal of the dredge operation' is too strong if you are talking about a poll of agents who worked on this matter. Some strongly favored dredging as the source of the money. Some bought into the Washougal washdown theory. Some actually wondered if Cooper had bailed into the area close to Tina Bar and the flight path was wrong. Several wondered if Cooper had survived the jump and was trying to get back to Portland but was intercepted by hobos and relieved of his money (perhaps killed and his body thrown into the Columbia) - area hospital records in the Portland-Vancouver area were searched again looking for any Jon Doe's whose bodies had turned up right after the hijacking but been missed in the first search of hospitals). And Pringle in the Seattle office said publicly he thought the Cooper money might have come up on Tina Bar "in ice".  So, there was a fairly wide range of opinion, but no way to resolve it. All of this is one reason why Carr's call for new forensic work on the money was important.

I have always liked Pringle's suggestion. Amazon shot that down in Dropzone - she lived near Tina Bar.


« Last Edit: November 24, 2014, 12:19:54 AM by georger »
 

georger

  • Guest
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #279 on: November 24, 2014, 12:29:37 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
If you believe, like I do, that the money arrived on the bar via dredging because the money bag landed in the Columbia River, then the flight path (or at least the longitude of it)  becomes irrelevant, because the money drifted or landed where it was dredged or directly on the bar.  If that's the case, then we know approximately when, or I guess where (the latitude) of his jump.  Does this make sense?

Keep an open mind on this a while longer.  Perhaps we can define the flight path a bit better in the near future.  And if so, we may also be able to make a valid statement about whether Cooper died in the jump or perhaps survived.  I have discussed this at length on the DZ thread, but I would like to point out again that the Tina Bar area has some unique topography that, depending on the flight path, has the potential for answering any number of questions.  And the money find at Tina Bar is a key factor in answering those questions.

But even at this time I think it is safe to say that if Cooper had landed in the river itself, he would probably have splashed not very far upstream of Tina Bar and floated right by it before sinking into the shipping channel.

... unless his chute becomes snagged on one of hose pile wingdams across from Tina Bar ?

The yellow line is the area of dredging between mile markers 96 & 97.  The black flag symbol across from Tina Bar is an old ship wreck ...
« Last Edit: November 24, 2014, 12:32:13 AM by georger »
 

Robert99

  • Guest
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #280 on: November 24, 2014, 12:44:15 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
If you believe, like I do, that the money arrived on the bar via dredging because the money bag landed in the Columbia River, then the flight path (or at least the longitude of it)  becomes irrelevant, because the money drifted or landed where it was dredged or directly on the bar.  If that's the case, then we know approximately when, or I guess where (the latitude) of his jump.  Does this make sense?

Keep an open mind on this a while longer.  Perhaps we can define the flight path a bit better in the near future.  And if so, we may also be able to make a valid statement about whether Cooper died in the jump or perhaps survived.  I have discussed this at length on the DZ thread, but I would like to point out again that the Tina Bar area has some unique topography that, depending on the flight path, has the potential for answering any number of questions.  And the money find at Tina Bar is a key factor in answering those questions.

But even at this time I think it is safe to say that if Cooper had landed in the river itself, he would probably have splashed not very far upstream of Tina Bar and floated right by it before sinking into the shipping channel.

... unless his chute becomes snagged on one of hose pile wingdams across from Tina Bar ?

The yellow line is the area of dredging between mile markers 96 & 97.  The black flag symbol across from Tina Bar is an old ship wreck ...

There was another old ship wreck at the northern end of Caterpillar Island and south (upstream) of Tina Bar.  But that ship wreck was apparently removed at some unknown time.
 

georger

  • Guest
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #281 on: November 24, 2014, 12:59:29 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
If you believe, like I do, that the money arrived on the bar via dredging because the money bag landed in the Columbia River, then the flight path (or at least the longitude of it)  becomes irrelevant, because the money drifted or landed where it was dredged or directly on the bar.  If that's the case, then we know approximately when, or I guess where (the latitude) of his jump.  Does this make sense?

Keep an open mind on this a while longer.  Perhaps we can define the flight path a bit better in the near future.  And if so, we may also be able to make a valid statement about whether Cooper died in the jump or perhaps survived.  I have discussed this at length on the DZ thread, but I would like to point out again that the Tina Bar area has some unique topography that, depending on the flight path, has the potential for answering any number of questions.  And the money find at Tina Bar is a key factor in answering those questions.

But even at this time I think it is safe to say that if Cooper had landed in the river itself, he would probably have splashed not very far upstream of Tina Bar and floated right by it before sinking into the shipping channel.

... unless his chute becomes snagged on one of hose pile wingdams across from Tina Bar ?

The yellow line is the area of dredging between mile markers 96 & 97.  The black flag symbol across from Tina Bar is an old ship wreck ...

There was another old ship wreck at the northern end of Caterpillar Island and south (upstream) of Tina Bar.  But that ship wreck was apparently removed at some unknown time.

Thanks Robert. Let me post the river river data again so everyone can correlate their thinking with river levels ...
The problem I have with him becoming part of the bottom sediments is how? It takes time and the right circumstance for that to happen. The existence of fragments has not been confirmed as an independent fact in any layer of strata. Sluggo's "missing link" is still missing.  :)
 

 


 

Robert99

  • Guest
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #282 on: November 24, 2014, 01:24:29 AM »
I don't see anything prior to January 1, 1973 in those graphs.  Presumably, the Portland newspaper would routinely report the daily river levels.  Does anyone happen to know if the Portland newspapers for the 1971 and more recent dates are online or maybe available on microfilm?

I think there was a bad flood in the Portland area about the summer of 1972 and the events related to it may be the first time the river got to the 10-12 foot level at Tina Bar following the hijacking.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2014, 01:25:38 AM by Robert99 »
 

georger

  • Guest
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #283 on: November 24, 2014, 01:52:15 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I don't see anything prior to January 1, 1973 in those graphs.  Presumably, the Portland newspaper would routinely report the daily river levels.  Does anyone happen to know if the Portland newspapers for the 1971 and more recent dates are online or maybe available on microfilm?

I think there was a bad flood in the Portland area about the summer of 1972 and the events related to it may be the first time the river got to the 10-12 foot level at Tina Bar following the hijacking.

The following from FEMA declarations and WSU declaration records -

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

1972 06/10 SEVERE STORMS, FLOODING  334
1972/04/05 Storm and tornado, Vancouver
1972 03/24 Heavy Rains, Flooding  328
1972 02/01 SEVERE STORMS, FLOODING  322
1971 03/25-26 SEVERE STORM, WINDSTORM – HIT PORTLAND-VANCOUVER
1971 03/04 WINDSTORMS – PORTLAND TO OREGON COAST
1971 02/09 Heavy Rains, Melting Snow, Flooding  300
« Last Edit: November 24, 2014, 01:52:52 AM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1025 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #284 on: November 24, 2014, 04:38:20 PM »
Well, it seems it's down to a couple things.

1) The path could be wrong. possibly landed closer the T-Bar.
2) The dredge brought the money to the surface.
3) Cooper lost the money and survived.
4) Cooper didn't pull and cannonball'ed in the river upstream.

Anything above calls for hard evidence to convince anyone. none of the 4 can be assumed!