Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find  (Read 1506130 times)

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #255 on: November 23, 2014, 10:38:31 AM »
This part should go in the flight path area, but only if it continues.

Originally they went by the timing of the oscillation. this was when Cooper went down the stairs. Rataczak now claims the pressure bump (stairs retracting up into the plane) was felt, but not reported, at least on the transcripts 5-10 minutes after the last contact with Cooper which was at 8:05. this puts the jump further south than originally suspected, and closer to the Columbia.

I think it's all in the timing if you ask me....

One can note that the plane covers over a mile of water in the possible danger zone of the jump. that's a lot of water to look at. I mentioned "possible jump zone".
« Last Edit: November 23, 2014, 10:59:46 AM by shutter »
 

Offline nmiwrecks

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #256 on: November 23, 2014, 11:40:12 AM »
The money bundles could be very well persevered for a number of years, even more than a decade, in a submerged bag or in silt, depending on a few different factors, like silt composition, temperature, etc.  I consider it likely (my opinion) that the money sat in a bag at the bottom of the Columbia for many years until until it was placed on the river bank by human intervention (dredging).

Human bodies (deceased) are nearly weightless underwater and they can easily be moved by currents.  It's not unusual for the bodies of drowning victims to be recovered many miles downstream from where they drowned.  I've effortlessly moved pieces of wood underwater that weigh close to 100 pounds on dry land.  the bag and money would fall under this category as I believe it would not take much current to move them once they were submerged.   
"If you always do what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you’ve always got." - Henry Ford
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #257 on: November 23, 2014, 12:00:40 PM »
Nice post!

We still can't prove if Cooper survived, or not. In the past people claim other things should of come up with the dredging, hardware from the chute, clothing from Cooper. I think several factors could trouble this theory. 1) the money could of came off soon after he left the plane. 2) the money could have separated from Cooper while submerged. 3) If the body was hung up on something and deteriorated the hardware would have trouble moving in current. the clothing would have slowly disappear flowing rather fast with the current.

These are factors included IF a dredge was the purpose of the money find. I can't state anything as fact due to limited knowledge of the condition of everything.

It could be as simple as Cooper not knowing where he was and jumped at the worst time landing in the Columbia. Let me ask this. If Cooper was a no pull on the chute would his body sink rather quickly? this also includes the timing being off for him to land in the Columbia, or the Willamette that flows into the Columbia. it's speculation at the moment. nothing to shoot me over  8)
 

Offline MarkBennett

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #258 on: November 23, 2014, 01:02:43 PM »
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This is a follow up of my post above.

I don't know exactly what is written in "Skyjack" about Kaye mentioning human intervention, but his very own website states the following.

"we can speculate that he must have had some human interaction that could have eventually led to the money being buried on Tena Bar. How the Cooper bundles came to be buried where they were remains as big a mystery as who D.B. Cooper was."

Speculate: form a theory or conjecture about a subject without firm evidence.

Kaye never comes out and says it has to be this option, or shift it into the best option. books are often inaccurate. we see this with "Into The Blast" which is full of inaccuracies. not to mention the multiple versions.

The money and the plane are obviously connected. it doesn't necessarily have to fly over T-Bar in order to end up there. the path is upstream from the find. common sense points to it getting there somewhere upstream. when the FBI's lab clearly states the money was submerged with evidence of the Columbia in it. I can't see a plant connecting the evidence. money by water. missing body possibly near water. enough said?

The path could be off as R99 has claimed. I don't know enough to dismiss his theory, but he is working hard to find answers. something people wish to harp on him about. his efforts exceed common research I can tell you that much. they also go above simple website searches, or anything done online. I value his opinion just as the rest of the members on here.

R99's credentials exceed the ones going against him. his knowledge in this area are far more advanced than most. can he be wrong? sure he can, but I'm not going to ridicule him, and attack him personally for speaking out. 

Shutter...

Dredging would count as non-natural means, as well.  Non-natural doesn't have to mean it was planted.
 

Offline nmiwrecks

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #259 on: November 23, 2014, 01:04:07 PM »
If Cooper was a "no pull", he would have impacted the water at about 100 mph.  This would have expelled the air from his lungs making him negatively buoyant.  Being about 6 feet tall and weighing about 180 pounds, he probably had a low body fat percentage, making him even less buoyant (fat floats, muscle is about 3 times as dense and tends to sink).  I'm not sure if his chutes were negatively buoyant, but I suspect they were after being water logged, so I think he would have sank rather quickly.

Some bodies surface after a couple days because the decaying process produces gases which gather in the abdominal cavity.  Some of the reasons this may not occur are:
  • Perforation of the abdominal cavity
    Temperature of the water
    Depth of the water

The money bag could have become separated from Cooper when he exited the aircraft, when (if) he pulled is chute, when (if) he impacted the water, or some time after being submerged with Coopers remains.

Or the money bag could have remained attached to Cooper's remains and remained there along with about $195,000 after some of the money was dredged and placed on the river bank.
"If you always do what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you’ve always got." - Henry Ford
 

Robert99

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #260 on: November 23, 2014, 01:45:55 PM »
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If Cooper was a "no pull", he would have impacted the water at about 100 mph.  This would have expelled the air from his lungs making him negatively buoyant.  Being about 6 feet tall and weighing about 180 pounds, he probably had a low body fat percentage, making him even less buoyant (fat floats, muscle is about 3 times as dense and tends to sink).  I'm not sure if his chutes were negatively buoyant, but I suspect they were after being water logged, so I think he would have sank rather quickly.

Some bodies surface after a couple days because the decaying process produces gases which gather in the abdominal cavity.  Some of the reasons this may not occur are:
  • Perforation of the abdominal cavity
    Temperature of the water
    Depth of the water

The money bag could have become separated from Cooper when he exited the aircraft, when (if) he pulled is chute, when (if) he impacted the water, or some time after being submerged with Coopers remains.

Or the money bag could have remained attached to Cooper's remains and remained there along with about $195,000 after some of the money was dredged and placed on the river bank.

Let me correct your speed if Cooper was a no pull.  That speed would be 180+ MPH after approximately a 10,000 foot free fall.  The total "package" (Cooper and his clothing, parachute(s), money bag, and anything else he had tied to himself) would weight approximately 225 pounds or maybe slightly more.

Perhaps Georger can elaborate on this specific point, but the money at Tina Bar appears to have been found about 10-12 feet above sea level with the Columbia River surface nominally being about 5-7 feet above sea level.  Hopefully, Georger can decipher some of his charts to determine the approximate surface level on the evening of the hijacking.  Basically, the water level had to be about 10-12 feet for the delivery of the money to the location where it was found at Tina Bar.  It is also unlikely that Cooper landed at Tina Bar since that location has a relatively large daily (year round) population of fishermen and others and the body and money would surely have been noticed within a very short time.

Tom Kaye discusses on his web site a packet of money that has obvious signs of being "torqued", or the bills rotated laterally with respect to each other.  That packet of money would have had to be constrained on its bottom and exposed to a water flow for that to have happened.  While that could have happened at Tina Bar, it is unlikely to have done so for the same reasons stated earlier.  Consequently, the money was apparently exposed to water flow elsewhere and for some length of time.

From the above, plus other considerations, it appears that Cooper was a no pull who landed on relatively solid ground very close to the river's edge.

Cooper was wearing a rain coat and maybe, according to one witness, long johns.  The parachute equipment he had on was essentially impervious to even salt water.  This suggests that after being de-fleshed, the major bones from the shoulders to the pelvis would still be constrained by the parachute equipment and Cooper's clothing.  So there remains the possibility that some remains of Cooper and/or his parachute equipment could still exist in the Tina Bar area, especially if he landed in one of the notorious briar patches in such places as Caterpillar Island.

 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #261 on: November 23, 2014, 01:46:53 PM »
We really have no way to tell if anymore of the money was spread out on the beach. at least nothing publicly shows that except the article of the FBI finding more of the money.

The northern spoil was very close to the money find. did they FBI search the southern spoil? this was a lot of sand that came out of the Columbia.

Caution....more speculation

The dredge could of broke the bag open sending it whirling around to be picked up at different times, and deposited at different times after it settled back on the river bed. Coopers body could be in the river upstream, or he survived and lost the money. the outer most part of the entire bag could of been so "soggy" and deteriorated that the violence going through the dredge left "fragments" to be spread over the beach after it was leveled out on the beach. I don't know, but it's more convincing than Cooper returning to get rid of his hard work. 
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #262 on: November 23, 2014, 01:53:46 PM »
Quote
Tom Kaye discusses on his web site a packet of money that has obvious signs of being "torqued", or the bills rotated laterally with respect to each other

Could this also apply to a no pull hard landing causing disruption of the entire package of bills?
Could this also apply for the bills being soaked and pushed during the leveling of the spoil?


« Last Edit: November 23, 2014, 02:37:58 PM by shutter »
 

Robert99

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #263 on: November 23, 2014, 02:53:28 PM »
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Quote
Tom Kaye discusses on his web site a packet of money that has obvious signs of being "torqued", or the bills rotated laterally with respect to each other

Could this also apply to a no pull hard landing causing disruption of the entire package of bills?
Could this also apply for the bills being soaked and pushed during the leveling of the spoil?

The packet of money indicates that something, such as a single rubber band, held one end of the bill packet together while the other end of the packet was free so the bills could rotate.  And it appears that the end with the rubber band was compacted with sand while the top bills were free to break off from near the rubber band end.  To me, this suggests that a period of time was involved in both the compaction and torqueing (with subsequent loss of portions of the top bills).

Also, only one of the three(?) packets of bills gave evidence of torqueing and their arrival adjacent to each other at Tina Bar seems to have been a somewhat tranquil event.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #264 on: November 23, 2014, 03:08:29 PM »
It seems to me that it could also be like what occurs in shipping when things are tied down they still shift with movement of the vehicle. the money is locked in the bag, but could still shift in movement? if they were in that position for several years, they become bonded in that form?
 

georger

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #265 on: November 23, 2014, 03:53:07 PM »
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We really have no way to tell if anymore of the money was spread out on the beach. at least nothing publicly shows that except the article of the FBI finding more of the money.

The northern spoil was very close to the money find. did they FBI search the southern spoil? this was a lot of sand that came out of the Columbia.

Caution....more speculation

The dredge could of broke the bag open sending it whirling around to be picked up at different times, and deposited at different times after it settled back on the river bed. Coopers body could be in the river upstream, or he survived and lost the money. the outer most part of the entire bag could of been so "soggy" and deteriorated that the violence going through the dredge left "fragments" to be spread over the beach after it was leveled out on the beach. I don't know, but it's more convincing than Cooper returning to get rid of his hard work.

A mere 20 yards (60 feet) separates the beginning of the debris field grid, leading up to the Ingram find, from the north downstream edge of the North dredging pile. See attached. That assumes the Faxio did not spread it further than shown in the USGS photo which was taken before any spreading had occurred.

Tom is relying on 'there were no fragments' which is directly contradicted by the agents that were there. Two of the agents say the frags would have been sent to Washington just like the Ingram bills, for analysis, and would still be in Washington being held and not in Seattle for Tom to find.

Moreover, according to a USGS sediment expert, Tom's own work shows a direct association between the bills Tom examined and bottom channel dredging sediment. So if nothing else, it appears the Ingram money which was down stream of the north dredging pile was contaminated by the Tina Bar dredging sediment if it was not in direct contact with it in the beginning. According to Tom, there is no dredging sediment left on Tina Bar by 1980 to contaminate anything! Tom believes Palmer was wrong.

"Thousands of fragments" is consistent with the work of a dredger cutter; just as Tom requires. Two agents from the Portland office and several agents from the Seattle office all thought (and say) they thought the money had come up with the dredging ... that it was a prima facia case.

The problem I have is 'how does anything from Cooper become a part of the bottom sediment at this location, at all
by any date'. Yes there are wing dam piles nearby all along the opposite shore in the vicinity of the mile markers involved ... but its always been my understanding that it takes time for anything to become part of the bottom sediment especially near the main channel where current is strongest ???







 
 
   
 
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #266 on: November 23, 2014, 04:09:24 PM »
Some things I don't understand here. how high was the spoils? according to Google Distance map the money is about 92 feet from the edge of the north spoil. what type of machinery moved this sand? 50 yards seems to be marking the center of the spoil. have you ever watched a pile of dirt being moved, or leveled. I see it often on job sites.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2014, 04:12:46 PM by shutter »
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #267 on: November 23, 2014, 05:12:34 PM »
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Some things I don't understand here. how high was the spoils? according to Google Distance map the money is about 92 feet from the edge of the north spoil. what type of machinery moved this sand? 50 yards seems to be marking the center of the spoil. have you ever watched a pile of dirt being moved, or leveled. I see it often on job sites.

According to Bechly, USCE, 91,100 cubic yards of fill were placed at two locations on the Fazio beach -not sure how that gets divided between two piles. 50%-50%? (Snowmman did some calcs on this at DZ. He might have a guess as to numbers and distribution, but that would be only a guess because Bechly is not precise about the stats on two piles. Bechly just says: 91,100 cubic yards of fill.)

I dont think this is comparable to dirt. This is wet viscous sand and clay that spread out from it's own weight. You can see that spreading in the USGS photo. The heavy wet spoils probably 'melted' and moved some of the beach already there. The Fazio had to wait for the piles to settle before they could do any spreading. Im guessing that took a week? The wet portion that flowed back into the Columbia washed away over time.

Not sure how high each pile would have been, probably more wide than high. It's my understanding Al Fazio used a common small tractor and blade to move the spoil's around. Some like a little 1954 Ford Jubilee? All of this was during a dry period Aug74 to May75, and no real flooding at all (if I read the records correctly) until the break in the drought of 1977 in December 1977. So the sand would have been fairly stable with little erosion or movement until Dec of '77. The sands would have compacted during that long stable period ending in Dec of 77.


     
« Last Edit: November 23, 2014, 05:15:30 PM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #268 on: November 23, 2014, 05:24:42 PM »
That is a huge amount of sand. a typical dump truck holds about 7 cubic yards. that's over 13,000 truck loads. Google distance is reporting the spoils at around 460 feet, or 153 yards wide. I can base it on surrounding objects still in place from the photo in 74.

The calculator is pretty accurate. I actually used it once to measure something in reference to an up coming job several years ago.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2014, 05:25:15 PM by shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #269 on: November 23, 2014, 05:55:21 PM »
Cooper just might be retired to a golf course  ;D ;D

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