Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find  (Read 1357743 times)

Robert99

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #195 on: October 22, 2014, 04:57:55 PM »
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well, as we all know there could easily be a timing issue with Cooper's jump time. if he didn't really know where he was, and could see some light. how can we be certain he knew where the river was?

If Cooper bailed close to the Columbia and didn't open his chute. where would be the best guess of where he left the plane, and what time would that be?

If Cooper fell head first for the entire 10,000 feet, almost two miles, he would reach a terminal velocity of about 180+ MPH after dropping about 1000 to 1500 feet and would have impacted the ground (or maybe water) in about 40 seconds.

If Cooper managed to maintain a stable skydiver spread for the entire distance (which is not possible under the circumstances in my judgment), his top speed would have been about 120+ MPH and he would have impacted the ground/water in less than 60 seconds.

If Cooper tumbled all the way down, and he probably did in my judgment, then the time to impact would probably be between the 40 and 60 seconds.  Horizontally, for Cooper to land on the ground at the money find location, the airliner would basically have to be over the western half of the Columbia River water.  He would continue to travel down track about 1250 feet before his descent would be completely vertical with respect to the air mass.  And the winds that evening would be from the southwest and blow him about 500 to 1000 feet to the northeast during his fall.

To impact at Tina Bar under the above conditions, Cooper's jump point would probably be over the western half of the Columbia River water surface and approximately 1000 feet North of Tina Bar.  Due to the overcast, all the clouds, and other factors, there is no way that Cooper could have known what was below him when he jumped.

 

Robert99

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #196 on: October 22, 2014, 05:05:19 PM »
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I have a certain degree of belief dredging had a roll in this. however, can the money withstand the years and violence of the dredge? can the money survive underwater in the bag and then ripped apart by the dredge? I can see the money being fused together while being in the bag on land, but can this occur while under water? if it's close to the north spoil can we conclude that erosion brought it to the surface?

Robert, how do you switch the coords so they can be put into Google maps? these coords don't work.

What format do you need for them to work on the Google maps?  Switching is easy, just need the format that Google uses.

Examples of accepted formats:

Degrees, minutes and seconds (DMS): 41° 24' 12.1674", 2° 10' 26.508"
Degrees and decimal minutes (DMM): 41 24.2028, 2 10.4418
Decimal degrees (DDD): 41.40338, 2.17403

Shutter, try these DDD numbers:  45.71789 (this is NORTH latitude, which may also be indicated by a "+" if Google requires it) and 122.75950 (this is WEST longitude, which may also be indicated by a "-" if Google requires it).

These numbers should work using the format you list above.


I tried several ways. I keep popping up in Korea?

Make sure that you have WEST longitude plugged into that.  The "-" in Tom Kaye's position should be a "+" if you use those symbols and end up in Korea.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #197 on: October 22, 2014, 05:07:09 PM »
Understood, but what would Cooper's forward motion be? distance wise. how much ground would he gain on the way down?

Have you tried the coords yet on Google?
« Last Edit: October 22, 2014, 05:08:26 PM by shutter »
 

Robert99

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #198 on: October 22, 2014, 05:19:05 PM »
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well, as we all know there could easily be a timing issue with Cooper's jump time. if he didn't really know where he was, and could see some light. how can we be certain he knew where the river was?

If Cooper bailed close to the Columbia and didn't open his chute. where would be the best guess of where he left the plane, and what time wqould that be?

That is why I and others nag and continually go back to the time issue on the flight path-jump. The time issue is crucial and everyone knows that! The GD airplane intersected and crossed the Columbia River - duhhh! Money was then found on the Vancouver side shoreline of the river. There ist a connection!

Egg-Zack-Lee......how close to the river would he have to be to change his name from Dan, to Bob. (fishing bobber)  ;D

Merzy Doats!  :) :) One central element in the history of this case has been a continual revision of the jump timeline. That fact is as clear as day and documented 100 times over, going back to Himmelsbach's sudden press announcement in 1976: 'we now believe he bailed some 12 miles north of Portland'. The word is Portland not Vancouver!  The whole east path myth begins years later around 1980... they already knew, had been debating and reviewing this 1974-76) and were finally willing to concede Cooper must have bailed further south than originally calculated. Carr reads the files and comes here in 2008 and almost the first thing on his mind is: 'when on the timeline did Cooper ACTUALLY bail'. The timeline has been open to revision since day one of this hijacking.

Assuming that the airliner overflew the Tina Bar area and that the voice part of the message from the airliner that it was "23 DME miles south of Portland" was actually made at 8:18 PM (as stated in one note in the NWA employee's papers posted on WSHM's web page), Cooper would have had to jump about 5 or 6 minutes earlier or about 8:12 PM (give or take a minute or so).
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #199 on: October 22, 2014, 05:20:21 PM »
Finally got it. here is what Google plots it as.....
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #200 on: October 22, 2014, 05:53:24 PM »
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well, as we all know there could easily be a timing issue with Cooper's jump time. if he didn't really know where he was, and could see some light. how can we be certain he knew where the river was?

If Cooper bailed close to the Columbia and didn't open his chute. where would be the best guess of where he left the plane, and what time wqould that be?

That is why I and others nag and continually go back to the time issue on the flight path-jump. The time issue is crucial and everyone knows that! The GD airplane intersected and crossed the Columbia River - duhhh! Money was then found on the Vancouver side shoreline of the river. There ist a connection!

Egg-Zack-Lee......how close to the river would he have to be to change his name from Dan, to Bob. (fishing bobber)  ;D

Merzy Doats!  :) :) One central element in the history of this case has been a continual revision of the jump timeline. That fact is as clear as day and documented 100 times over, going back to Himmelsbach's sudden press announcement in 1976: 'we now believe he bailed some 12 miles north of Portland'. The word is Portland not Vancouver!  The whole east path myth begins years later around 1980... they already knew, had been debating and reviewing this 1974-76) and were finally willing to concede Cooper must have bailed further south than originally calculated. Carr reads the files and comes here in 2008 and almost the first thing on his mind is: 'when on the timeline did Cooper ACTUALLY bail'. The timeline has been open to revision since day one of this hijacking.


All understood, but, we seem to have money on a river bank, differences in where he jumped. no body, not chute. it's possible he made it, but I'm leaning towards ker-plunk. it doesn't make sense for Cooper to plant the money. nobody was on his trail. the FBI thinks he died, why bring it all up again confusing the FBI?

Where exactly is 12 miles from Portland, is it from PDX, or Downtown Portland. from PDX it puts Cooper above Battleground, and if you go by Downtown Portland, it goes above Orchards? I'm looking at other possibilities since we seem to have lots of conflictions & reports.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2014, 06:23:15 PM by shutter »
 

Offline MarkBennett

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #201 on: October 22, 2014, 06:26:40 PM »
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I have a certain degree of belief dredging had a roll in this. however, can the money withstand the years and violence of the dredge? can the money survive underwater in the bag and then ripped apart by the dredge? I can see the money being fused together while being in the bag on land, but can this occur while under water? if it's close to the north spoil can we conclude that erosion brought it to the surface?

Robert, how do you switch the coords so they can be put into Google maps? these coords don't work.

What format do you need for them to work on the Google maps?  Switching is easy, just need the format that Google uses.

Examples of accepted formats:

Degrees, minutes and seconds (DMS): 41° 24' 12.1674", 2° 10' 26.508"
Degrees and decimal minutes (DMM): 41 24.2028, 2 10.4418
Decimal degrees (DDD): 41.40338, 2.17403

Shutter, try these DDD numbers:  45.71789 (this is NORTH latitude, which may also be indicated by a "+" if Google requires it) and 122.75950 (this is WEST longitude, which may also be indicated by a "-" if Google requires it).

These numbers should work using the format you list above.


I tried several ways. I keep popping up in Korea?


Aha!  Cooper landed in Korea!  No wonder they didn't find him.

But, I put this in Google Maps, and it took me right to the Columbia:

45.71789  -122.75950
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #202 on: October 22, 2014, 06:56:55 PM »
I put a comma and a space between the numbers and wound up in Korea, I was lucky they didn't see me. no passport  ;D :D :)

actually it was China once I zoomed out....
« Last Edit: October 22, 2014, 06:59:51 PM by shutter »
 

Robert99

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #203 on: October 22, 2014, 11:26:12 PM »
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Understood, but what would Cooper's forward motion be? distance wise. how much ground would he gain on the way down?

Have you tried the coords yet on Google?

See post 195, above.  But after separating from the airliner, Cooper would continue about 1250 feet down the flight track of the airplane until his forward motion (to the south) would have ceased with respect to the air mass.  The air mass would have carried him a few hundred feet to the northeast before he hit the ground.

If Cooper impacted at the money find location at Tina Bar, the net result of his movements after separating from the airliner would be about 1000 feet to the south and a few hundred feet to the east.  Working backwards from that, he would separate about 1000 feet north of Tina Bar and over the middle to western half of the Columbia River.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #204 on: October 22, 2014, 11:48:36 PM »
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Understood, but what would Cooper's forward motion be? distance wise. how much ground would he gain on the way down?

Have you tried the coords yet on Google?

See post 195, above.  But after separating from the airliner, Cooper would continue about 1250 feet down the flight track of the airplane until his forward motion (to the south) would have ceased with respect to the air mass.  The air mass would have carried him a few hundred feet to the northeast before he hit the ground.

If Cooper impacted at the money find location at Tina Bar, the net result of his movements after separating from the airliner would be about 1000 feet to the south and a few hundred feet to the east.  Working backwards from that, he would separate about 1000 feet north of Tina Bar and over the middle to western half of the Columbia River.


Hmmm, so the plane would have to be about a quarter mile short of the Columbia for a "splash one" scenario? that is if the path is correct, and the timing is wrong with where he jumped. if he jumped around the Orchard area, he would of surely survived (if he pulled). it's basically flat. you would think a body would have been found easily in that area if he didn't pull. I've been flying around the area tonite scratching my head.

That money will drive you bonkers as much as the path  :'(
 

georger

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #205 on: October 23, 2014, 12:21:33 AM »
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Understood, but what would Cooper's forward motion be? distance wise. how much ground would he gain on the way down?

Have you tried the coords yet on Google?

See post 195, above.  But after separating from the airliner, Cooper would continue about 1250 feet down the flight track of the airplane until his forward motion (to the south) would have ceased with respect to the air mass.  The air mass would have carried him a few hundred feet to the northeast before he hit the ground.

If Cooper impacted at the money find location at Tina Bar, the net result of his movements after separating from the airliner would be about 1000 feet to the south and a few hundred feet to the east.  Working backwards from that, he would separate about 1000 feet north of Tina Bar and over the middle to western half of the Columbia River.


Hmmm, so the plane would have to be about a quarter mile short of the Columbia for a "splash one" scenario? that is if the path is correct, and the timing is wrong with where he jumped. if he jumped around the Orchard area, he would of surely survived (if he pulled). it's basically flat. you would think a body would have been found easily in that area if he didn't pull. I've been flying around the area tonite scratching my head.

That money will drive you bonkers as much as the path  :'(

If Cooper or his loot went into the drink, the only place anyone has ever found any Cooper artifact is north of the north dredging spoils site (down stream of that site).

The placard was found  practically under the flight path.

 
« Last Edit: October 23, 2014, 12:31:47 AM by georger »
 

georger

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #206 on: October 23, 2014, 01:04:47 AM »
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Understood, but what would Cooper's forward motion be? distance wise. how much ground would he gain on the way down?

Have you tried the coords yet on Google?

See post 195, above.  But after separating from the airliner, Cooper would continue about 1250 feet down the flight track of the airplane until his forward motion (to the south) would have ceased with respect to the air mass.  The air mass would have carried him a few hundred feet to the northeast before he hit the ground.

If Cooper impacted at the money find location at Tina Bar, the net result of his movements after separating from the airliner would be about 1000 feet to the south and a few hundred feet to the east.  Working backwards from that, he would separate about 1000 feet north of Tina Bar and over the middle to western half of the Columbia River.

Just had a realisation - duhhh! 

If Tom's gps location for the find is accurate, based on Schreuder's 20 yard line grid keyed off the Ingram location, then it is indeed located many yards north of the spread zone for the north dredging pile pictured in the USGS photos.

We know Palmer dug his trench close to the Ingram find 'hole'. But, if Tom is right, there were never any dredging spoils there. Therefore, Palmer strata can contain "no dredge spoils strata" at all.

Tom is saying this stratum is bottom clay and is still visible today up on the bank behind the Ingram find.

I think this may be what Tom is trying to say?

This would imply Palmer never looked at the USGS 1974 dredging spoils photos or even talked to the dredging people or FBI about where the dredging debris had been dumped on T_Bar ???  Palmer had no idea where the dredge spoil sites were?  That is quite some error if true!

That still does not eliminate the chance the money came out of the dredging spoils and was washed and cover north of the north dredge spoil location ?

 





     
« Last Edit: October 23, 2014, 01:11:33 AM by georger »
 

Robert99

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #207 on: October 23, 2014, 01:16:08 AM »
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Understood, but what would Cooper's forward motion be? distance wise. how much ground would he gain on the way down?

Have you tried the coords yet on Google?

See post 195, above.  But after separating from the airliner, Cooper would continue about 1250 feet down the flight track of the airplane until his forward motion (to the south) would have ceased with respect to the air mass.  The air mass would have carried him a few hundred feet to the northeast before he hit the ground.

If Cooper impacted at the money find location at Tina Bar, the net result of his movements after separating from the airliner would be about 1000 feet to the south and a few hundred feet to the east.  Working backwards from that, he would separate about 1000 feet north of Tina Bar and over the middle to western half of the Columbia River.


Hmmm, so the plane would have to be about a quarter mile short of the Columbia for a "splash one" scenario? that is if the path is correct, and the timing is wrong with where he jumped. if he jumped around the Orchard area, he would of surely survived (if he pulled). it's basically flat. you would think a body would have been found easily in that area if he didn't pull. I've been flying around the area tonite scratching my head.

That money will drive you bonkers as much as the path  :'(

If Cooper or his loot went into the drink, the only place anyone has ever found any Cooper artifact is north of the north dredging spoils site (down stream of that site).

The placard was found  practically under the flight path.

Let me try to reply to Shutter and Georger's comments at the same time.

For Cooper to make a direct no-pull impact at the point the money was found on Tina Bar, the airliner would have be flying almost straight south (true course) about the center of the Columbia River.  Remember that the river runs almost straight north and south at Tina Bar.

The exact location of the airliner with respect to the river depends on the winds aloft, which are not known precisely at this time.  If the winds aloft were zero all the way up to 10,000 feet, the airliner would have had to directly overfly Tina Bar and Cooper would have had to jump about 1250 feet almost straight north of the money find point.

Assuming the winds aloft at different altitudes were all from the southwest, then the stronger the winds, the further west the airliner would have had to be with respect to the money find point.  Additionally, the stronger the southwest winds aloft, the closer (in a north/south direction) Cooper would have had to be to the money find point when he jumped.

The placard find location, which was not under the actual flight path, indicated that the airliner was to the west of the V-23 centerline when it separated from the airliner.  And the winds aloft that were used in determining the separation point from the airliner involved assumptions.  In doing those calculations, I tried to be "conservative" in the sense that the airliner was at least the calculated distance west of the V-23 centerline but could have been some distance further west.

If the Seattle ATC transcripts become available, then new calculations can be done to determine the actual flight path, more accurate ground speeds, more accurate winds aloft, more accurate times and locations, etc..

And Georger is correct, to the best of my knowledge, in stating that nothing related to the airliner has been found south (upstream) of the Tina Bar money find location.  And also correct in stating that the money find location appears to be north (downstream) of the dredged materials.
 

Offline hom

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #208 on: October 23, 2014, 01:37:05 PM »
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Tom is saying this stratum is bottom clay and is still visible today up on the bank behind the Ingram find.

I think this may be what Tom is trying to say?

That's what I got out of it.  Long-existing naturally produced clay layer.
 

Offline hom

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find - Dredging deposits 1974
« Reply #209 on: October 23, 2014, 04:30:31 PM »
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The Oregon side location was probably selected (in part) because of proximity to the dredging location, which could have been up- or down-river from the part visible in the pic.

The Fazio deposits consisting of 91,100 cubic yards of fill came from between mile markers '96 plus 38 feet and river mile 97 plus 17 feet'.

Maybe the Oregon side deposit is close to this area?

The first attached image shows part of a topo map made initially in 1961 and updated in 1970.  It shows the part of the river where the dredging occurred--basically in the immediate vicinity of Tena Bar.  I added a scale and labels for the "river miles."

The '70 updates in purple show that Tena Bar had been considerably eaten away between '61 and '70.  Note also that shoreline had been much eaten away across the river and a bit downstream.  I think it highly probable that the spoils put on the Oregon side would have been placed there.  Whouldn't necessarily have been deposited the same as at Tena Bar.

The 2nd image is a combination of parts of the '70 and '74 aerial pix we've been dealing with.  Some considerable difference in the '70 and '74 Oregon shorelines is apparent especially on both the upstream and downstream sides of the downstream (north) thing that extends straight out from the shoreline.