Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find  (Read 1417017 times)

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1920 on: February 10, 2016, 12:12:07 AM »
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One thing we need for sure is better maps of 1980, and hopefully the news (kiro) still has footage from the chopper. they put the video on You Tube a year go.

Looking at the still photo from the chopper looking south. it appears they were digging further south than what can be seen in the video. I see three more area's (square) and a lot of footprints leading to another area further south.

something going on there .. again this fits with Dorwin's statements that they canvased/searched the whole beach looking for any trail up to the money find, and beyond it. He says since they found more fragments south of the Ingram find than north of it, it was south where they did extensive raking and probing... as apparently confirmed by the KIRO vds ...


Yes, you can see two sections at the top of the beach, and one down by the boat. then a lot of footprints (two sections) leading to the same location at about the same elevation all of the sections start at. lots of activity down there....
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1921 on: February 10, 2016, 12:15:08 AM »
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In my humble opinion, Dorwin's statements and the write up by Mike McPheters in his book, both describing the finding of many, many money fragments at Tina Bar, is enough evidence to conclusively answer the question.  Lots of money fragments were found at Tina Bar and that is the final and correct answer to that question.  Period.

BRUCE:  Ummm. Maybe not so "period." Where are the fragments, now? Until we know where the fragments are and how they got there, the issue is not locked down.

R99 ANSWERS:  The fragments have absolutely nothing to contribute to this matter at the present time.  Where they are and how they got there is not of any significance today.

BRUCE:  Also, if Mike is such an unimpeachable source, then why isn't he willing to talk about it?  His silence doesn't mean he lied about the fragments, only that the issue is a bit murkier than one would hope.

R99 ANSWERS:  Mike has already written FBI reports (with money fragments bagged and attached presumably) on his activities at Tina Bar and also discusses those activities in his book.  His silence doesn't mean anything.  Maybe he is just tired of having to repeat himself for some people.

BRUCE:  As for Dorwin, his whole testimony has to be considered. Where does the "briefcase find" fit in with his statements on the fragments? Does it lessen his credibility? Also, how about the 60-foot plume field that leads upstream? Plausible? Any explanations for it? Again, does it impact his credibility?

R99 ANSWERS:  Does Dorwin make the original claim that a "briefcase" was found at Tina Bar?  In any event, Cooper's briefcase did not have anything to do with the fragments.  Also, did Dorwin make the original claim that a 60-foot plume field of fragments led upstream?

BRUCE:  There is no question in my mind that Dorwin is a nice guy, and is to be praised for talking with us at such length. I certainly intend to take him up on his invitation to spend a day skiing with him at Big Sky in Montana. But even Dorwin has suggested to me that I take what he says with a grain of salt since his "memory might be off."

I have never heard Dorwin state anything about a "60-foot plume field that leads upstream", north of the Ingram find ? Dirwin's only reference to the number 60 with me is to a "60 YARD" max fragment line they drew 60 yards south of the Ingram find, from which point fragments seemed to trail off in frequency. And as it happens the KIRO vid frames confirm concentrated excavation going on in that area, south of the Ingram find. And, the Palmer report confirms Palmer dug a second trench in this same area south of the Ingram find to check strata there as a comparison with the strata in his "trench" dug closer to the Ingram find.

As I reported before, Dorwin has said frags were found "north" of the Ingram find, but they trailed off quickly. If my memory is correct Dorwin said those fragments north of the Ingram find trailed off at about "20 feet" north of the Ingram site.

     
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1922 on: February 10, 2016, 12:16:19 AM »
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Contour Map

source and date?
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1923 on: February 10, 2016, 12:23:37 AM »
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Contour Map

source and date?


It's from the Clark County website....it doesn't give any other information, so I assume it would be up to date info? they also have soil maps, flood zones etc.


What I would be interested in is how far south pieces were found in respect to the northern spoil.....
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1924 on: February 10, 2016, 12:25:32 AM »
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I believe if the amount of fragments did, or do exist, they are important to the money find. I'm puzzled to why they never released this information. they discussed the dredge theory, but didn't believe it with thousands of pieces being recovered? 

If the money was close by, how did thousands of pieces following along with the money?

Dorwin thinks it (the fragments) confirmed the theory that the Ingram money had come up with the dredging. Dorwin has always favored the dredging theory based on what he personally saw.

Dorwin says the decision was made during the excavation to stop talking (to reporters) about what was being found which included information about fragments. The excavation had become populated with reporters coming and going and those in charge felt the situation was out of control and was compromising agents ability to communicate in their work. 

There are also a couple of oblique references in the Palmer report to things other than the Ingram money 'bundles' being found. Let me go back and look for those statements.   
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1925 on: February 10, 2016, 12:29:48 AM »
Would all the small pieces survive that long in the sand? I have no idea, but would lean towards no.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2016, 12:30:09 AM by Shutter »
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1926 on: February 10, 2016, 12:37:20 AM »
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Contour Map

source and date?


It's from the Clark County website....it doesn't give any other information, so I assume it would be up to date info? they also have soil maps, flood zones etc.


What I would be interested in is how far south pieces were found in respect to the northern spoil.....

Well... that's pretty easy to set now, thanks to your eagle eye in identifying content on these KIRO vid frames! We know its a lot closer to the center of the northern spoil than Tom thought it was. I mean specifically, if Dorwin's fragment field is true it goes closer to the northern dredge spoil than Tom thought. Second, the digging during the canvasing goes much closer to the northern spoil than previously acknowledged. And third, Palmer even reports in his report that he went closer to the north dredge spoil (shown in the 74 usgs photo) and dig a second trench precisely to compare with his large trench soley for the purpose of comparing strata depths at both sites and .. he measured the dredging layer near the Ingram site at 2ft thick but nearer the north spoil site at 4ft thick ... which totally makes sense! The closer you would get to the north dredge spoil site shown in the 74 photo the thicker you would expect the dredging layer to be, and that is precisely what Palmer checked for and found!

If you then add in the fact the 50 yards of spreading was only an "approximate figure", then Tom's "distance theory" begins to dissolve.       
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1927 on: February 10, 2016, 12:41:10 AM »
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Would all the small pieces survive that long in the sand? I have no idea, but would lean towards no.

Well they might if there were many thousand of them!!! Survival by numbers, after the dredge has created millions of pieces munching a whole bag of $200,000 ?

Dont forget the reports of formless globs of mush which may have been rotted money ?  There is one report of a fist sized glob of 'deteriorated mush which was probably money'. Too bad that wasn't kept for analysis.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1928 on: February 10, 2016, 12:46:00 AM »
The frames in the KIRO video are pretty close to the northern tip of the north spoil. Tom's 2009 location is even closer. I've only used the center for measurements. you would have to push sand from the furthest point outward, and not back into the area of the spoil. I also believe thousands of yards were never moved at all. the spoil could be seen for years, so a great deal of it remained in place where it was dumped.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1929 on: February 10, 2016, 12:54:44 AM »
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Would all the small pieces survive that long in the sand? I have no idea, but would lean towards no.

Well they might if there were many thousand of them!!! Survival by numbers, after the dredge has created millions of pieces munching a whole bag of $200,000 ?

Dont forget the reports of formless globs of mush which may have been rotted money ?  There is one report of a fist sized glob of 'deteriorated mush which was probably money'. Too bad that wasn't kept for analysis.


Tom says he still has bills in testing, and they still don't look like the Cooper cash...it's possible they could survive....
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1930 on: February 10, 2016, 01:09:52 AM »
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Would all the small pieces survive that long in the sand? I have no idea, but would lean towards no.

Well they might if there were many thousand of them!!! Survival by numbers, after the dredge has created millions of pieces munching a whole bag of $200,000 ?

Dont forget the reports of formless globs of mush which may have been rotted money ?  There is one report of a fist sized glob of 'deteriorated mush which was probably money'. Too bad that wasn't kept for analysis.


Tom says he still has bills in testing, and they still don't look like the Cooper cash...it's possible they could survive....

What's your reading on when Tom thinks the money was placed at Tena Bar?

I can't find where Tom even gives a firm date except maybe to intimate in 71 or 72? I dont know what Tom is saying, but I can't find any specific date on his website. ? Maybe Tom is avoiding the whole issue ? 
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1931 on: February 10, 2016, 01:15:47 AM »
I would have to look. I don't remember what all he said about the time frame. I recall what you said about 71, 72...
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1932 on: February 10, 2016, 01:36:51 AM »
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I would have to look. I don't remember what all he said about the time frame. I recall what you said about 71, 72...

Thats my reading too - So in effect he's saying in a 71-72 sand layer on top of a pre-existing clay layer, and that clay layer was misidentified by Palmer as being the dredging layer which Tom is saying was washed away by 1980. Tom is saying the money was exposed after years of erosion between 71-80 and was in a recent upper-active layer merged with an old 71-71 layer being exposed due to erosion.

That leaves no room for a fragment field caused by dredging. The only room it leaves for a fragment field is due to lateral movement with the current, going north from some previous position 60 or so yards south (to be consistent with Dorwin's info on a fragment field).

This leaves no room for fragments found deeper than in the surface layers. Once again, no reading totally fits all the presumed data!  :)  And whoever solves this gets the big bucks $  :) 

 
« Last Edit: February 10, 2016, 01:44:13 AM by georger »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1933 on: February 10, 2016, 03:41:13 AM »
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R99 ANSWERS:  The fragments have absolutely nothing to contribute to this matter at the present time.  Where they are and how they got there is not of any significance today.


Can I quote you on that, Robert? I find it a remarkable statement.

Indeed you may.  And in return, let me ask you a simple question.  Exactly what were you doing 36 years ago today?

I was having sex.

You?
« Last Edit: February 10, 2016, 03:41:35 AM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1934 on: February 10, 2016, 03:57:34 AM »
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I have never heard Dorwin state anything about a "60-foot plume field that leads upstream", north of the Ingram find ? Dirwin's only reference to the number 60 with me is to a "60 YARD" max fragment line they drew 60 yards south of the Ingram find, from which point fragments seemed to trail off in frequency. And as it happens the KIRO vid frames confirm concentrated excavation going on in that area, south of the Ingram find. And, the Palmer report confirms Palmer dug a second trench in this same area south of the Ingram find to check strata there as a comparison with the strata in his "trench" dug closer to the Ingram find.

As I reported before, Dorwin has said frags were found "north" of the Ingram find, but they trailed off quickly. If my memory is correct Dorwin said those fragments north of the Ingram find trailed off at about "20 feet" north of the Ingram site.

 

Thanks for the clarification. 60 yards, not feet.  As you wrote back in January:


“Two figures still stick out in my mind”, Dorwin says. “20 yards and 60 yards. Those numbers marked two trails we had found. 60 yards is where surface fragments trailed off, and I remember thinking at the time the Ingrams might have followed this trail up to their find. A blind man could have followed that trail of fragments. The Ingram find was at about 40 feet from the water’s edge and we found fragments around it in a kind of circle out about 10 or 20 feet. There were more fragments behind it than in front of it (downstream of the Ingram find). But the 60 yard trail was about 4 to 6 feet wide mostly below the Ingram find, not above it. We explored with rakes and found that deposit continued below the surface layer of the beach. That 60 yard figure has always stuck in my mind. (laughs)."
 
« Last Edit: February 10, 2016, 03:58:07 AM by Bruce A. Smith »