Fragments at T-Bar are reported by SA Mike McPheters and SA Ralph Himmelsbach, besides Dorwin.

Since NO one has seen them since February 12, 1980, apparently, and certainly not in the current era of Geoffrey Gray, Citizen Sleuths, or Larry Carr, there is a strong likelihood that the fragments don't exist at present.

So, the bigger question is whether they ever existed. Al and Richard Fazio say they never found any fragments, nor did the Ingrams. But we have plenty of pix revealing what appears to be fragment recovery - ie: Ralph is pointing to something in that trench, and someone is holding a shard of a 20 in a plasticine container, as posted here at the Forum.

Hence, if the fragments were found, their existence may have pointed to other issues that needed to be hidden. Hence, the fragments were disappeared.

Another scenario is that they were lost due to sloppy police work and record keeping, as revealed in the 1995 Dept of Justice Investigation of FBI Lab work, and confirmed by US Congressional hearings.

We have newspaper accounts posted here at the Forum that claim the shards were stored in Portland. Dorwin says they were turned over to the Seattle guys via the Vancouver agents shortly after the time of discovery at T-Bar. Jerry Thomas says that Ralph says all the stuff "was sent up to Seattle."

Personally, I hold all of the above in a state of abeyance - one of possible truth. It's a state of mind that I employ for much of the controversies of Norjak. I don't rule anything in, necessarily. And I don't rule anything out, either. As a result, I have a rather large mental juggling act going on all the time.

There were numerous reporter-newspaper accounts from named agents (as well as the statement by Himmelsbach in his book) of money fragments and other money-stuff being found. All of that completely independent of Agent Schreuder. Had Schreuder never existed we would still have all of those reports. These fragments were all collected outside the Ingram find zone, by all reports from named agents including Himmelsbach.   

[edit]  Let's be very clear about one thing. The Ingram find itself contained "many fragments of all sizes"! In addition to larger pieces of bills. That was the state of degeneration of the found money. Moreover one of the puzzles about the money is that these 'fragments' were interspersed between larger pieces of bills or nearly whole bills. That fact has never been discussed on any forum. When you look at the groups of bills displayed in the FBI news conference photo you are not seeing at least two things: (a) the large nukmber of fragments not selected because they were not considered 'photo-presentation worthy', and (b) small fragments of bills stuck to other bills or fragments of bills within the groups being shown on the table.

$5800 represents only the number of serial numbers the FBI was able to identify. (I tried to make this point to Blevins to no avail!). When the FBI split the money up in accordance with the Court order Brian Ingram wasn't given whole bills. Brian was given a few partials of whole bills and a bunch of fragments counted as 'likely whole bills'! The same for the FBI's share and the Insurance company's share.

Of the artifacts submitted by Brian for auction, PCGS was able to separate almost 3 dozen additional fragments showing all or parts of 35 more serial numbers never accounted for by the FBI at all. That brings the $5800 estimate up to $6520.00. If you assume the same percentage of uncounted numbers in the FBI and Ins Company's shares, that brings the original Ingram find estimate of $5800 up to $7960 and that approaches a theoretical 4 bundles in the Ingram find.

The Ingram find itself contained a 'very large number' of fragments due to the condition of the money itself. Nature had already created countless fragments of the former whole bills given Cooper. The issue is were there any other 'fragments' found in other locations, and we have a lot of people saying 'yes' to that. Tom Kaye cannot deny that nature had already created "fragments" - it had! If Tom wants to see "fragments" have him revisit Seattle or give Brian a call.

If the Ingram find was due to hydrology or the dredging then fragments elsewhere on the sandbar is almost a certainty. If the Ingram find was a plant then possibly the guy making the plant lost some fragments out of his tin can as he walked along the beach to where Brian found the money?

Fragments are the result of a process in Nature, in any event. And that process takes time and a fairly well known set of natural conditions ... if a dredging auger is not also involved! 
         

If we go by Carr's statement about the bundles it throws a wrench into it again...

Quote

The money was packaged in varying amounts, so one bundle would have $500.00 another $1,000.00, there was no uniformity to it.

I'm not so sure the auger bit would do much, unless it got caught in the cycle of spins, but it still wouldn't do much because of it's slow revolutions. the vacuum would suck it into the pipe. it's main job is to break things loose so it can be brought up through the pipe. I suppose if it hit the bag just right (just under the cutter head) it would rip into it pretty good.



I'm thinking a large portion of the money went through the pipe to the pump. then perhaps some of it was spared through the violence of the dredge pump. ( if you believe the dredge theory)

When did people start saying bundles of $2,000 or 100 bundles?

That's correct. Like others I use $2k per bundle x 100 bundles because it's simpler than having to explain that "Cooper was the transvestite in the Rocky Horror movie who owned a Dairy Queen and flew F-14s who wrote books and visited Nepal frequently where he gave birth to babies and offered Tina "3 bundolas" which she rejected so he put it back in his coat pocket prior to 1980 when the 3 bundolas were found being still held together by virgin rubber bands which "turned to dust when touched by a virgin" " ...

I also resort to this from time to time - to pretend that things can and do wash up on Tena Bar! I am sure the nay-Sayers will find a reason to reject this under the heading: "We could not find Tena Bar and the Columbia River in an envelope at Seattle" ? 

That's correct. Like others I use $2k per bundle x 100 bundles because it's simpler than having to explain that "Cooper was the transvestite in the Rocky Horror movie who owned a Dairy Queen and flew F-14s who wrote books and visited Nepal frequently where he gave birth to babies and offered Tina "3 bundolas" which she rejected so he put it back in his coat pocket prior to 1980 when the 3 bundolas were found being still held together by virgin rubber bands which "turned to dust when touched by a virgin" " ...

  Well said...

If the discovery of the "fragments" is true (this is a hypothetical question), what is the second best theory (dredge theory being first) of the money arriving at Tena Bar in the condition it was in (fragments)?  What else could cause the fragmenting and dispersal of the fragments?

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That's correct. Like others I use $2k per bundle x 100 bundles because it's simpler than having to explain that "Cooper was the transvestite in the Rocky Horror movie who owned a Dairy Queen and flew F-14s who wrote books and visited Nepal frequently where he gave birth to babies and offered Tina "3 bundolas" which she rejected so he put it back in his coat pocket prior to 1980 when the 3 bundolas were found being still held together by virgin rubber bands which "turned to dust when touched by a virgin" " ...

  Well said...

If the discovery of the "fragments" is true (this is a hypothetical question), what is the second best theory (dredge theory being first) of the money arriving at Tena Bar in the condition it was in (fragments)?  What else could cause the fragmenting and dispersal of the fragments?

I'm wondering if all the fragments add up to what is missing of the bills?

If the dredge kicked out the bills, you would think a lot more fragments would of been found. how much of the fragment/bills were shipped away from Seattle?

Floating down the river in a paper bag doesn't fly either. it would sink after several minutes and couldn't get off the bottom without human intervention..(sorry Jo/Bobby Bevy)

If it was above Tena bar and washed down, you would think it would of been exposed at one point?

I don't see why Cooper would bury the money with the risk of it never being found. just send a bill to the FBI with a Ha Ha letter?

Let me reply to both posts above -

All of the frags shown in Tom's Seattle photo could very easily have come from the Ingram money alone, especially as residue from separating the dried money to house in evidence envelopes as shown in Tom's photo. A number of people have commented about how the evidence folders became full of "debris". Maybe this debris was emptied into plastic boxes at some point? It's hard to image the tiniest fragments (in one plastic box) having come from any other source. The fact is, the Ingram bills 'fragmented' severely once the FBI and others started working with them.

Beyond that, until a fragment field is confirmed at Tena Bar, there is no way to resolve all of the conflicting claims of "experts" (Kaye vs Palmer vs others) for a correct interpretation of the money find at Tena Bar. This is what the experts have brought us - total confusion and controversy. The correct interpretation of the Tena Bar money find is literally "undecidable" as things stand today. 

G wrote: Beyond that, until a fragment field is confirmed at Tena Bar, there is no way to resolve all of the conflicting claims of "experts" (Kaye vs Palmer vs others) for a correct interpretation of the money find at Tena Bar. This is what the experts have brought us - total confusion and controversy. The correct interpretation of the Tena Bar money find is literally "undecidable" as things stand today. 


Agree. Sad state of affairs.

377

Thanks 77. I do think progress on several key points in the money debate can be made, with some work - hopefully that will happen in the near future.

On one small point, Tom lists key people and their assigned roles in the money find excavation, as follows. This list does not quite agree with Smith's list of principle players? You can find this list under "Timeline" in "Tena Bar Money" at Tom's site.

The list is:

Paul Hudson FBI onsite coordinator
Dorwyn Schreuder FBI agent in charge of beach search (Oregonian wed Zaitz)
Wiliam M Baker FBI assistant special agent for Portland
Tom Nicodemus  FBI agent in charge of the search. Stated to Oregonian on Thurs they found fragments
Bill Williams FBI spokesman Portland
Kenneth Moore FBI Seattle
Jack Pringle FBI assistant agent Seattle
 

   

Posted below is Kaye's picture of Ingram at the money find location, which Kaye says has +/- 20 foot accuracy.  The tree behind Ingram is the tree Tom says he used to 'locate' the "exact" money find location by comparison with a point on the road behind the money find and Palmer's ditch all shown in FBI photos Tom saw at Seattle.

Tom also says he discovered "several continuous clay layers" in the eroded beach front, shown behind Ingram in this composite photo. Tom says these "several clay layers" are "the very same clay layer" Palmer misidentified in 1980 as being the "dredging spoil clay lump layer". Tom says this proves Palmer was wrong!

I see what appear to be several clay layers in Tom's photo? A and B ? Or is this one layer? Tom says there was a 20-30 foot loss in beachfront between 1980 and 2009 when he took these photos.

Can the clay layer(s) Tom is showing in his 2009 photo be the very same "clay lump" layer Palmer was looking at in his trench in 1980 - ?

 

I think I can see several fence posts a few feet beyond the highest land points shown in the top photograph.  Those fence posts would have to be on the west side of the containment pit.

Also, on the bottom photograph with Brian in it, the land behind him seems to be sloping upwards to his right (the left side of the picture) and some of those trees around Brian look vaguely familiar.

So I will repeat my claim that Tom got the GPS coordinates right ( and that the yellow pins on some of the pictures are wrong) and that Meyer Louie and I were at the correct point (at least at the water's edge, as close as we could get) in 2013. That point is within the penciled circles shown on the aerial photographs from the FBI.

 

Did you "the tree" Tom says was in both the 1980 and 2009 aerial photographs - shown he says in 1980 FBI excavation photos?

There are two sets of trees..one where the money was located, and where the yellow pin is located. the next set of trees are south of the money find....