The original meaning was the wording...where it states "Fazio brothers sand" on the photo...

The path/road I'm using as a reference has yellow arrow's...right above it states Fazio brothers sand. look at the differences where Tom has the pin, and where the GPS coords are. they are too low, and out of the search area....

The actual point that Tom's GPS coordinates leads to is almost directly west of the end of the red line that you have drawn in the right hand picture.  The point is actually out over the water and several feet above the water elevation.

What coordinate system are you using on those aerial photographs?  I personally don't remember seeing any coordinate system associated with those photographs.

But remember that the longitude and latitude system was changed in the mid-1980s from the one that was in effect prior to that to the WGS-84 system.  In the Portland area, if I remember correctly, the change resulted in about a 10 foot vertical adjustment along the longitude lines (north-south) and up to about a 200 foot adjustment along the latitude lines (east-west).

So depending on your source information for the coordinate system(s) you are using, that could result in some significant changes especially in an east-west direction.

Hopefully this photo will explain what I can see going on with the different locations (coords vs actual find)

I have 3 photo's from different years. the best way to gauge this area is the road that cuts off from the path leading out to the beach. you see it running upward, or north. (where is states Fazio brothers sans)

In the recent Google image you can see the marking is almost even, or just above this road. when you look at 1979 photo you can see it's clearly further north of that location. the 1974 photo didn't have the road, so I plowed one out 

Quote

Palmer measures feet of it!

Now, at the money find...that's not too far from the spoil. the question is, how thick did they push the sand. in order to have several feet of material would cause you to slowly grade it down. 2, or 3 feet of material would be a lot of work for that
tractor.

did they ever state how many tractors, dozers etc. were used to move all of this material?

I see your point about the road ... there is a cusp in the road that may illustrate your point - marked with red line.

There are photos of the tractor. I think it was a little Ford 8N or 9N workhorse like I grew up on mowing in the 50s.

What coordinate system are you using on those aerial photographs?  I personally don't remember seeing any coordinate system associated with those photographs.

The 74-79 photo's doesn't have any GPS markings. only Tom's pin. I put the Google balloon on the 74, and 79 photo as examples. the recent photo has the GPS location marked by typing in the coords Tom provides. (45.717888, long. -122.759500)

The whole point was to show the GPS coords Google is listing is not accurate, or the coords are wrong. (out of the search area)

I used the road/path leading north as a marker/reference for the two markings. one being the coords on the recent photo, and the second showing where Tom has placed the yellow pin. the GPS coords are below the FBI's search area.

North & South is the main issue here...

I don't think that tractor could of done all the work. depending how high the spoils were it would be a long process using only that tractor. the tractor appears to have the blade under the tractor behind the front wheels. that's good for grading, but wouldn't be much help in getting material off the spoil. even using the backhoe would be time consuming...(double the work)

Turns out Ckret and JT both posted about this after talking to the Fazios. Ckret says: The river in the area where the money was located had been dredged August 19 through the 25th, 1974. The dredge material was deposited on the banks of the Fazio Brothers farms and spread by front loaders Front loaders plural - more than one person. It makes sense. The Fazio had a sand operation, equipment, and people. So that hypnotic brain eating mystery is resolved. Moreover one of the "front loaders" used was the same tractor shown in the picture I posted.

Now, the Kaye theory that the dredging piles were too far removed from the Ingram find to be involved, met with criticism the moment Tom posted that - from Snowmman and others. You can see some of that commentary here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

The linchpin of Tom's theory is: that things dont move too far after dredging spoils are placed on a sandbar! That the Fazios only spread dredge material 50 yards off center at both dredge pile location at Tena Bar. And other assorted assumptions and flavors I wont spend time on. Bottom line is Snowmman thought all of Tom's assumptions were unproven at best, and probably wrong! You can read all of that at Dropzone search page: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

If we remove the clutter of prior hypnosis and open our brains back up, we discover that "50 yards" used by Kaye is an assumption and in fact the authority on this (USGS Bechley) says: "probably 50 yards" - could be more could be less - at each of the two dredge piles placed on the Fazio beach. Moreover, there were two piles, not just one, as Tom seems transfixed by. And after consulting Ckret, Snowmman, Bechley. Thomas, and other authorities who actually talked to the Fazio or who have firsthand knowledge in this matter, it turns out the technique used in pouring dredge spoils on to the Fazio beach involved a pipe placed "high upon the beach at both locations ... and we let the spoils pour out there and spread out and down" ... as per the laws of Nature. Red circles show "high upon the beach" - this technique was outlawed later.

Next items of evidence: pile 1 was spread differently than pile 2! And, erosion rates at both piles were not equal! Pile #1 may have eroded faster-quicker than pile #2 ? Material in pile #1 may have spread further over time than material in pile #2 which sat experiencing less erosion because of its position and became more consolidated. Is it even conceivable that material from pile #1 eventually over-flowed pile #2 at a later date? Hmmm. Any geologist happening by would see a mixed picture. Things from pile #1 could even be mixed with surface sands now resting on top of the old pile#2 ? The central issues are erosion and transport over time, and which moves first and mostest vs another dredge pile close by down stream,  which sits less eroded and changed? Maybe Palmer was right after all?

Farflung image altered posted below.

I feel so much better now that I am unhypnotised and thinking freely again! GO CLEMSON!     

     

I'm not sold on any theory with the money find, but I seen reports of what was at the bottom of the river, and what the bar consist of. clay is mentioned a lot. Palmer could be spot on, but it's hard to see the dredge material so far down....

sometimes it makes perfect sense. you look for the suspect that sticks out (dredge) the money is found in the same area. the plane crossed the river upstream...then you look deeper into this theory and discover problems. the timing of the jump, the distance from the path, and the deadly dredge pump, and finally, mother nature....

Reading your post about the material being moved makes sense. this is a big job. if you want it done in a in a decent amount of time you need manpower, and the proper equipment...

I'd like to get some opinions here.  There is no wrong answer, I just want to know what others are thinking.  Reports of the money "fragments" seem to come from FBI Agent Dorwin Schroeder, a respected individual.  But, he could have been mistaken about briefcase remnants found at the site, which questions the reliability of his memory.  Do you believe there were quite a few "loose" fragments found spread out over a decent sized area, as reported?

Secondly, if the dredge theory is ruled out, what is you're theory on how the money arrived there?  What are some of the ways it could have arrived there?

These are not "Gotcha" questions.  I just want to know what others are thinking, and see if anyone's on the same page, or in the same book.

Reports of the money "fragments" seem to come from FBI Agent Dorwin Schroeder, a respected individual.

Respected by whom? Adam Schreuder's book on Dorwin makes it clear that his grandfather did not feel respected by many in the Portland Field Office, where he had long standing conflicts and tensions with other agents, particularly with the supervisor staff, one of whom he nicknamed "Sluggo." Dorwin, apparently left the FBI because he felt he was no longer effective since he was not part of the "Palace Guard," and had lost the taste for federal law enforcement.