Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find  (Read 1503084 times)

georger

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find - Robert W. Touchberry Sr., 89 died Wednesday
« Reply #180 on: October 22, 2014, 12:29:56 PM »
Just got word yesterday: The former chairman of the Dept of Dairy Science, Univ of Washington, Robert W. Touchberry Sr., died June 29, 2011 age 89, at his home in Iowa. Bob knew the Fazio Brothers and had been at their operation in Vancouver a number of times. Bob was a consultant to the original Science Team under SA Larry Carr, before Tom Kaye joined the team.




 
 

Robert99

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #181 on: October 22, 2014, 01:24:08 PM »
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I have a certain degree of belief dredging had a roll in this. however, can the money withstand the years and violence of the dredge? can the money survive underwater in the bag and then ripped apart by the dredge? I can see the money being fused together while being in the bag on land, but can this occur while under water? if it's close to the north spoil can we conclude that erosion brought it to the surface?

Robert, how do you switch the coords so they can be put into Google maps? these coords don't work.

What format do you need for them to work on the Google maps?  Switching is easy, just need the format that Google uses.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #182 on: October 22, 2014, 03:44:39 PM »
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I have a certain degree of belief dredging had a roll in this. however, can the money withstand the years and violence of the dredge? can the money survive underwater in the bag and then ripped apart by the dredge? I can see the money being fused together while being in the bag on land, but can this occur while under water? if it's close to the north spoil can we conclude that erosion brought it to the surface?

Robert, how do you switch the coords so they can be put into Google maps? these coords don't work.

What format do you need for them to work on the Google maps?  Switching is easy, just need the format that Google uses.

Examples of accepted formats:

Degrees, minutes and seconds (DMS): 41° 24' 12.1674", 2° 10' 26.508"
Degrees and decimal minutes (DMM): 41 24.2028, 2 10.4418
Decimal degrees (DDD): 41.40338, 2.17403
 

georger

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #183 on: October 22, 2014, 03:49:55 PM »
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I have a certain degree of belief dredging had a roll in this. however, can the money withstand the years and violence of the dredge? can the money survive underwater in the bag and then ripped apart by the dredge? I can see the money being fused together while being in the bag on land, but can this occur while under water? if it's close to the north spoil can we conclude that erosion brought it to the surface?

Robert, how do you switch the coords so they can be put into Google maps? these coords don't work.

Snow did extensive research on the dredger (auger) used, back at DZ. Posts are still there. He found many examples of rocks, paper, wood, even a case of a small tv almost intact passing through the auger. Total shredding may be a myth in spite of the FBI report from the dredging company saying 'everything would have been shredded'.
Two agents even told several people part of a briefcase had been found, but then retracted their statement turning that into the status of a rumor. 

Tom is relying on the FBI/Dredging Co. report as the final word. So far as I know the Fazios weren't helpful - all they said was "we didn't see anything when we spread out the piles'...  whatever that means?

We know there were two main vectors for debris appearing at Tina Bar 1971-1980: (a) hydrological deposition, and (b)  the dredging in 1974. Both involve the Columbia river.

Furthermore, Tom Kaye says Palmer's identification of strata was wrong! Is Tom saying some or none of the 1974 dredging spoils were at Tina Bar in 1980, or had they all eroded away by that date? ..............       

We may never know "how" the money got to Tina Bar. We might be able to narrow the timeline when it could have happened (and not happened) but even that is problematic with today's data.

Could the dredger have passed some money bundles? Tom and the FBI/Dredging Co say absolutely not. Snow says 'maybe' and cites examples of things passing through that dredge. The remaining Fazio hasn't clarified anything except to say he thinks the money came up on the shoreline during the last high tide just prior it being found (which doesn;t seem likely). 
« Last Edit: October 22, 2014, 03:57:14 PM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #184 on: October 22, 2014, 03:56:12 PM »
I also found reason to believe debris gets through the dredge lines. it still needs to be intact for almost 9 years of weathering, submerged, temps, bugs etc. I don't know if the money could of done that? if it was hung up on land somewhere protected in the bag for several years, you might have a claim.

almost 3 years in the water, then brought up to the surface. is this possible?
 

georger

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #185 on: October 22, 2014, 03:59:02 PM »
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I also found reason to believe debris gets through the dredge lines. it still needs to be intact for almost 9 years of weathering, submerged, temps, bugs etc. I don't know if the money could of done that? if it was hung up on land somewhere protected in the bag for several years, you might have a claim.

almost 3 years in the water, then brought up to the surface. is this possible?

The Fazios were there! What did they see or not see!? Do they just spread stuff around and unless something the size of car hit's their blade ... they dont see anything and nothing else but sand is there?
« Last Edit: October 22, 2014, 03:59:53 PM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #186 on: October 22, 2014, 04:05:16 PM »
it's possible since the money was wet it blended in with the sand, or it just didn't surface enough to be exposed. since the sand was spread out, it had to of been towards the start of the dredging on that spoil. that is once again if the money came out of the Columbia.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #187 on: October 22, 2014, 04:10:22 PM »
The dredge kicks up a lot of things on the bottom. it's possible the money was flung all over the place at the bottom? one would think some of it would be trapped in the system. it has several guards prior to the screen at the end of the pipe.
 

georger

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #188 on: October 22, 2014, 04:13:48 PM »
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it's possible since the money was wet it blended in with the sand, or it just didn't surface enough to be exposed. since the sand was spread out, it had to of been towards the start of the dredging on that spoil. that is once again if the money came out of the Columbia.

Who knows at what point in the dredging money/bag/etc might have come up?

What nags me is Tom's beliefs about the Palmer strata and whether Tom is saying dredging spoils were all gone by 1980, or only a thin layer from the 74 dredging remained ... just under the top 4-8 inches identified as the upper active layer in Palmer's report. Pending chemistry and particle tests at the time, I don't know how anyone can know for certain? 

And! We haven't even opened the whole issue of how (and why) Cooper money would have been a part of the bottom sediment, where the dredging occurred, to be brought up with the dredging spoils ... at all!  That to my mind is a large a question as anything else in this conundrum.

Moreover, Tom is staunch in his beliefs and opinions and will not discuss this openly. That complicates everything from my point of view - it is like he is waiting for someone (the right person) to present something of great merit before he will participate in any discussion worthy of his participation?
« Last Edit: October 22, 2014, 04:23:48 PM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #189 on: October 22, 2014, 04:23:47 PM »
well, as we all know there could easily be a timing issue with Cooper's jump time. if he didn't really know where he was, and could see some light. how can we be certain he knew where the river was?

If Cooper bailed close to the Columbia and didn't open his chute. where would be the best guess of where he left the plane, and what time would that be?
« Last Edit: October 22, 2014, 04:24:36 PM by shutter »
 

georger

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #190 on: October 22, 2014, 04:25:50 PM »
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well, as we all know there could easily be a timing issue with Cooper's jump time. if he didn't really know where he was, and could see some light. how can we be certain he knew where the river was?

If Cooper bailed close to the Columbia and didn't open his chute. where would be the best guess of where he left the plane, and what time wqould that be?

That is why I and others nag and continually go back to the time issue on the flight path-jump. The time issue is crucial and everyone knows that! The GD airplane intersected and crossed the Columbia River - duhhh! Money was then found on the Vancouver side shoreline of the river. There ist a connection!
« Last Edit: October 22, 2014, 04:31:51 PM by georger »
 

Robert99

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #191 on: October 22, 2014, 04:33:42 PM »
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I have a certain degree of belief dredging had a roll in this. however, can the money withstand the years and violence of the dredge? can the money survive underwater in the bag and then ripped apart by the dredge? I can see the money being fused together while being in the bag on land, but can this occur while under water? if it's close to the north spoil can we conclude that erosion brought it to the surface?

Robert, how do you switch the coords so they can be put into Google maps? these coords don't work.

What format do you need for them to work on the Google maps?  Switching is easy, just need the format that Google uses.

Examples of accepted formats:

Degrees, minutes and seconds (DMS): 41° 24' 12.1674", 2° 10' 26.508"
Degrees and decimal minutes (DMM): 41 24.2028, 2 10.4418
Decimal degrees (DDD): 41.40338, 2.17403

Shutter, try these DDD numbers:  45.71789 (this is NORTH latitude, which may also be indicated by a "+" if Google requires it) and 122.75950 (this is WEST longitude, which may also be indicated by a "-" if Google requires it).

These numbers should work using the format you list above.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #192 on: October 22, 2014, 04:34:11 PM »
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well, as we all know there could easily be a timing issue with Cooper's jump time. if he didn't really know where he was, and could see some light. how can we be certain he knew where the river was?

If Cooper bailed close to the Columbia and didn't open his chute. where would be the best guess of where he left the plane, and what time wqould that be?

That is why I and others nag and continually go back to the time issue on the flight path-jump. The time issue is crucial and everyone knows that! The GD airplane intersected and crossed the Columbia River - duhhh! Money was then found on the Vancouver side shoreline of the river. There ist a connection!

Egg-Zack-Lee......how close to the river would he have to be to change his name from Dan, to Bob. (fishing bobber)  ;D
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #193 on: October 22, 2014, 04:42:31 PM »
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I have a certain degree of belief dredging had a roll in this. however, can the money withstand the years and violence of the dredge? can the money survive underwater in the bag and then ripped apart by the dredge? I can see the money being fused together while being in the bag on land, but can this occur while under water? if it's close to the north spoil can we conclude that erosion brought it to the surface?

Robert, how do you switch the coords so they can be put into Google maps? these coords don't work.

What format do you need for them to work on the Google maps?  Switching is easy, just need the format that Google uses.

Examples of accepted formats:

Degrees, minutes and seconds (DMS): 41° 24' 12.1674", 2° 10' 26.508"
Degrees and decimal minutes (DMM): 41 24.2028, 2 10.4418
Decimal degrees (DDD): 41.40338, 2.17403

Shutter, try these DDD numbers:  45.71789 (this is NORTH latitude, which may also be indicated by a "+" if Google requires it) and 122.75950 (this is WEST longitude, which may also be indicated by a "-" if Google requires it).

These numbers should work using the format you list above.


I tried several ways. I keep popping up in Korea?
 

georger

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #194 on: October 22, 2014, 04:43:34 PM »
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well, as we all know there could easily be a timing issue with Cooper's jump time. if he didn't really know where he was, and could see some light. how can we be certain he knew where the river was?

If Cooper bailed close to the Columbia and didn't open his chute. where would be the best guess of where he left the plane, and what time wqould that be?

That is why I and others nag and continually go back to the time issue on the flight path-jump. The time issue is crucial and everyone knows that! The GD airplane intersected and crossed the Columbia River - duhhh! Money was then found on the Vancouver side shoreline of the river. There ist a connection!

Egg-Zack-Lee......how close to the river would he have to be to change his name from Dan, to Bob. (fishing bobber)  ;D

Merzy Doats!  :) :) One central element in the history of this case has been a continual revision of the jump timeline. That fact is as clear as day and documented 100 times over, going back to Himmelsbach's sudden press announcement in 1976: 'we now believe he bailed some 12 miles north of Portland'. The word is Portland not Vancouver!  The whole east path myth begins years later around 1980... they already knew, had been debating and reviewing this 1974-76) and were finally willing to concede Cooper must have bailed further south than originally calculated. Carr reads the files and comes here in 2008 and almost the first thing on his mind is: 'when on the timeline did Cooper ACTUALLY bail'. The timeline has been open to revision since day one of this hijacking.