Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find  (Read 1433323 times)

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1785 on: January 09, 2016, 05:10:22 PM »
Seems like someone needs to ask him his opinion of the flight path. also, timing issues have been uncovered....
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1786 on: January 09, 2016, 09:09:49 PM »
I have spent a lot of time on the maps. I think I have the answer. it appears (If Google is right with the coord) that they are in the circled area, and not near the search area. I've measured numerous objects on the bar, some have moved over time, but I believe the coords are too far south from the actual search area.

I've never been to Tina Bar, so I'm going on all of the maps over the years. it's possible Google is plotting it wrong, I don't know...
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1787 on: January 10, 2016, 12:06:48 AM »
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Seems like someone needs to ask him his opinion of the flight path. also, timing issues have been uncovered....

Dorwin really has no opinion on the flight path, that I could tell. He did say very firmly that 'we were told the money came down the Washougal', The presumption is Cooper landed there. So I asked, "for how long was the Washougal in play before the Ingram money was found?". Dorwin laughed (he's sharp) and said, "uhmm, not very long". (laughing). Then he said (which astounded me) "not very long at all." 
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1788 on: January 10, 2016, 12:22:12 AM »
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I have spent a lot of time on the maps. I think I have the answer. it appears (If Google is right with the coord) that they are in the circled area, and not near the search area. I've measured numerous objects on the bar, some have moved over time, but I believe the coords are too far south from the actual search area.

I've never been to Tina Bar, so I'm going on all of the maps over the years. it's possible Google is plotting it wrong, I don't know...

OK, so if Tom's coords are within the FBI circle and don't line up with his pin, is his pin location correct?

Tom says: "Multiple photos at different angles in the FBI Archive showed the hole dug where the money was found."
I have some faith in that process and therefore Tom's pin marker is probably correct? I dont think we have any
choice but to use it, frankly.

We still need an independent trustworthy scale for evaluating Tena Bar. The County records of building sizes should be as reliable a scale as is possible. That scale will be independent of Google, Tom, and everything else.

[btw: the Save button is not saving my corrections to my posts. I have to log out and come back in just to change or edit my posts]
« Last Edit: January 10, 2016, 12:26:33 AM by georger »
 

Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1789 on: January 10, 2016, 12:29:12 AM »
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Seems like someone needs to ask him his opinion of the flight path. also, timing issues have been uncovered....

Dorwin really has no opinion on the flight path, that I could tell. He did say very firmly that 'we were told the money came down the Washougal', The presumption is Cooper landed there. So I asked, "for how long was the Washougal in play before the Ingram money was found?". Dorwin laughed (he's sharp) and said, "uhmm, not very long". (laughing). Then he said (which astounded me) "not very long at all."

Just ask Dorwin, or anyone else who was involved in the investigation, if he ever saw the un-redacted version of the Seattle Air Traffic Control radio transcripts.  That would be the version that did not have 19 areas of redaction in it.

Also, you might ask Dorwin, or anyone else who was involved in the investigation, if they know what happened to the ARNIC teletype messages that were removed from the NWA records.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1790 on: January 10, 2016, 07:53:14 AM »
Quote
[btw: the Save button is not saving my corrections to my posts. I have to log out and come back in just to change or edit my posts]

I'm having similar problems...I just get out of the thread I'm on, and refresh the home page. I'm not sure why it's doing this. I'll send Skilled a PM today...
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1791 on: January 10, 2016, 11:44:51 AM »
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Seems like someone needs to ask him his opinion of the flight path. also, timing issues have been uncovered....

Dorwin really has no opinion on the flight path, that I could tell. He did say very firmly that 'we were told the money came down the Washougal', The presumption is Cooper landed there. So I asked, "for how long was the Washougal in play before the Ingram money was found?". Dorwin laughed (he's sharp) and said, "uhmm, not very long". (laughing). Then he said (which astounded me) "not very long at all."

Just ask Dorwin, or anyone else who was involved in the investigation, if he ever saw the un-redacted version of the Seattle Air Traffic Control radio transcripts.  That would be the version that did not have 19 areas of redaction in it.

Also, you might ask Dorwin, or anyone else who was involved in the investigation, if they know what happened to the ARNIC teletype messages that were removed from the NWA records.

Already asked him. Answer is "no, the Seattle boys would have had that".
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1792 on: January 10, 2016, 04:15:15 PM »
See the chart below -

I have always noticed that Tom uses the 1974 usgs photo when making many of his comparisons. I have always wondered if this choice was creating a bias. Below is a comparison of the 74 and 79 usgs photos in the area of the Ingram find. These two photos are on the same scale and line up well. The sizes of features are basically the same owing to nearly the same aspect ratio in each photo. You will see that the buildings are lined up. So, what does this comparison reveal?

The Ingram find is not in the FBI circle in '74 but it is in the circle in '79. Moreover it appears different pencils  were used to draw the two circles, 74 vs 79, perhaps by different people with different information in each case ? Very clearly the 74 circle does not capture the Ingram find, whereas the 79 circle does.

The Faxio building with the red line is 220ft long. We have that from a County record. Using that scale if the Ingram find was 40 feet above the water line, as people contend it was, 40 feet does not place the Ingram find right at the trees but well below the trees in an open space. That would also explain why the Brian photo is incorrect, if he wasn't at the place he actually found the money when he was staged for a photo shoot. According to the Faxio building scale 40 feet from the water line is in open space.

Thirdly, a slight bulge is still in place in 1979 from the '74 dredging. The bulges in '74 and '79 line up well. This does not guarantee that the material we are seeing in '79 is dredging material, it could be lower strata sand that was displaced by the weight of dredging material applied above in 1974, but it might also be dredging material itself still in place in '79 ... only four months before Palmer will claim he found the dredging layer.

Measurements taken at identical positions on the sides of the dredging bulge in the '74 vs '79 show that the shoreline frontage is virtually the same in both years. What has eroded and is missing is 'dredge budge' frontage. These photos do not offer us information about elevation loss due to erosion at these same locations. But quite obviously water-line frontage is basically the same in 1974 vs. 1979! This result surprised me. Do we assume then that erosion and movement of material was not as large a factor in this area between 74 and 79 as previously thought? We would need elevation data in addition to shoreline frontage data in making a decision?
   
« Last Edit: January 10, 2016, 04:32:59 PM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1793 on: January 10, 2016, 04:26:18 PM »
With different tide lines it might be hard to see any erosion. I believe it could of taken surface material over time vs shoreline? it's hard to grasp that the dredge layer would be so far down without washing away. if it was even there in the first place?

Yes, the 79 pic has the circle in the find area, but it's pretty obvious he didn't know that.

The X is pretty far down the beach and to the right? (your photo)
« Last Edit: January 10, 2016, 06:30:16 PM by Shutter »
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1794 on: January 10, 2016, 06:00:37 PM »
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With different tide lines it might be hard to see any erosion. I believe it could of taken surface material over time vs shoreline? it's hard to grasp that the dredge layer would be so far down without washing away. if it was even there in the first place?

Yes, the 79 pic has the circle in the find area, but it's pretty obvious he didn't know that.

The X is pretty far down the beach and to the right?

No one could have plotted any find circles until after Feb 1980. The find didnt exist until Feb 80, so these circles were drawn when by who?

Why would there be more surface loss (elevation) than shoreline loss? The shoreline is in direct contact with moving water all the time vs. tides, rain, floods, snow, etc. Tom says there basically was 'no' dredging layer left by 1980 whereas Palmer measures feet of it! If shorelines loss 74 to Sept 79 is any indicator then Palmer was right and Tom is wrong. It all goes to when and how the money got to Tena Bar if natural means is in play.

We dont have anything to measure surface loss by. If shoreline loss is an indirect indicator then there was dredging material still on or just under the surface in 1979-80.     ??
« Last Edit: January 10, 2016, 06:03:09 PM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1795 on: January 10, 2016, 06:19:51 PM »
The way I see this could happen is the sand obviously doesn't vanish, it has to go somewhere. I'm thinking is washes out by the waves.stripping the surface down over time?

We would need elevation over many years to see what actually happens on the beach....


I'm guessing the FBI made the circles..That's where the photo came from....


Tom's site
"Fig. 3 1974 dredging image from FBI archive overlaid on Googe Earth. The penciled circle is the inacurate location of the money find from 1980"
« Last Edit: January 10, 2016, 06:25:38 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1796 on: January 10, 2016, 06:41:32 PM »
Hopefully this photo will explain what I can see going on with the different locations (coords vs actual find)

I have 3 photo's from different years. the best way to gauge this area is the road that cuts off from the path leading out to the beach. you see it running upward, or north. (where is states Fazio brothers sans)

In the recent Google image you can see the marking is almost even, or just above this road. when you look at 1979 photo you can see it's clearly further north of that location. the 1974 photo didn't have the road, so I plowed one out  8)

Quote
Palmer measures feet of it!

Now, at the money find...that's not too far from the spoil. the question is, how thick did they push the sand. in order to have several feet of material would cause you to slowly grade it down. 2, or 3 feet of material would be a lot of work for that
tractor.

did they ever state how many tractors, dozers etc. were used to move all of this material?
« Last Edit: January 10, 2016, 09:12:55 PM by Shutter »
 

Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1797 on: January 10, 2016, 09:30:57 PM »
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Hopefully this photo will explain what I can see going on with the different locations (coords vs actual find)

I have 3 photo's from different years. the best way to gauge this area is the road that cuts off from the path leading out to the beach. you see it running upward, or north. (where is states Fazio brothers sans)

In the recent Google image you can see the marking is almost even, or just above this road. when you look at 1979 photo you can see it's clearly further north of that location. the 1974 photo didn't have the road, so I plowed one out  8)

Quote
Palmer measures feet of it!

Now, at the money find...that's not too far from the spoil. the question is, how thick did they push the sand. in order to have several feet of material would cause you to slowly grade it down. 2, or 3 feet of material would be a lot of work for that
tractor.

did they ever state how many tractors, dozers etc. were used to move all of this material?

What is "Fazio brothers sans (or sard)"?
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1798 on: January 10, 2016, 09:45:47 PM »


Quote
What is "Fazio brothers sans (or sard)"?

correct, sand.
 

Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1799 on: January 10, 2016, 09:49:10 PM »
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Quote
What is "Fazio brothers sans (or sard)"?

correct, sand.

The Fazio sand operation is south of the buildings and adjacent to the road and driveway to the Fazio office, buildings, etc.