Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

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Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find  (Read 1344949 times)

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1770 on: January 08, 2016, 06:00:24 PM »
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How do we know the yellow pin is the Ingram find? Taking Tom's word for it? Ingram didn't know where it was. The FBI never knew

The yellow pin is in the same proximity as you have the find. it's also close to the picture of Brian shown scooping the snow shortly after the find...

I can see that. I would agree with that. Can you give us coordinates for the yellow pin?

I basically agree with you about the spreading of the massive amount of sediment. In addition that material was viscous and took longer than the Fazios expected to settle before they could do any spreading. The Faxios have commented about that. Tom says Palmer was wrong. Palmer found and classified a layer as the dredging sediment. Tom says the dredging sediment was all gone; that Palmer clay layer is a natural layer. Now compare the 74 and 79 USGS photos. Do you see that a remnant of the shoreline dredging bulge from 1974 is still partially there in 79? Does that mean Palmer was right and Kaye's opinion is wrong?


Yes, I can see remains of the spoils in 1979. that doesn't mean the sediments stayed on the surface. if they washed out, which I believe is what happened. I'm having trouble understanding that the dredge material would be so far down, without washing away like we slowly see occurring on Tina Bar? it does deposit large objects (timber, trash) but does it hold sediments well enough to remain for years? I'm guessing the spoils are similar to an iceberg by not revealing it's whole body? more under the waterline.

We have seen, and read about the severe erosion problems with the bar. this is why I'm having trouble with Palmer. we also have the sediment report showing what is on the bottom in this area. I'm not a scientist, but a lot of evidence shows the dredge material was probably washed away due to issues mentioned?
« Last Edit: January 08, 2016, 06:02:56 PM by Shutter »
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georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1771 on: January 08, 2016, 06:42:10 PM »
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How do we know the yellow pin is the Ingram find? Taking Tom's word for it? Ingram didn't know where it was. The FBI never knew

The yellow pin is in the same proximity as you have the find. it's also close to the picture of Brian shown scooping the snow shortly after the find...

I can see that. I would agree with that. Can you give us coordinates for the yellow pin?

I basically agree with you about the spreading of the massive amount of sediment. In addition that material was viscous and took longer than the Fazios expected to settle before they could do any spreading. The Faxios have commented about that. Tom says Palmer was wrong. Palmer found and classified a layer as the dredging sediment. Tom says the dredging sediment was all gone; that Palmer clay layer is a natural layer. Now compare the 74 and 79 USGS photos. Do you see that a remnant of the shoreline dredging bulge from 1974 is still partially there in 79? Does that mean Palmer was right and Kaye's opinion is wrong?


Yes, I can see remains of the spoils in 1979. that doesn't mean the sediments stayed on the surface. if they washed out, which I believe is what happened. I'm having trouble understanding that the dredge material would be so far down, without washing away like we slowly see occurring on Tina Bar? it does deposit large objects (timber, trash) but does it hold sediments well enough to remain for years? I'm guessing the spoils are similar to an iceberg by not revealing it's whole body? more under the waterline.

We have seen, and read about the severe erosion problems with the bar. this is why I'm having trouble with Palmer. we also have the sediment report showing what is on the bottom in this area. I'm not a scientist, but a lot of evidence shows the dredge material was probably washed away due to issues mentioned?

I know what you're saying ... Im in the same dilemma with this. I just have one helluva a time buying that Palmer was an idiot! Or even made a rare mistake in this instance. In fact, we may never know or be able to resolve this.

While I am here, is this scale more to your liking? I think this aerial photo has a lot of foreshortening from the camera. I think that front facing section is now all one section, not two. So I have labeled the whole front section 0-20ft and continued my scale from there ... ? Now people aren't so cramped together in that front section ? 
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1772 on: January 08, 2016, 07:18:26 PM »
I wouldn't call Palmer an idiot. anyone can make a mistake. he still might be right about the sediments. nothing has really been proven one way, or the other. just like how the money got there.... :'(
« Last Edit: January 08, 2016, 08:10:54 PM by Shutter »
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1773 on: January 08, 2016, 08:12:14 PM »
Quote
While I am here, is this scale more to your liking? I think this aerial photo has a lot of foreshortening from the camera. I think that front facing section is now all one section, not two. So I have labeled the whole front section 0-20ft and continued my scale from there ... ? Now people aren't so cramped together in that front section ?


It's a good shot, but you missed a marker line between 0 & 20....
« Last Edit: January 08, 2016, 08:17:49 PM by Shutter »
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georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1774 on: January 08, 2016, 11:15:39 PM »
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While I am here, is this scale more to your liking? I think this aerial photo has a lot of foreshortening from the camera. I think that front facing section is now all one section, not two. So I have labeled the whole front section 0-20ft and continued my scale from there ... ? Now people aren't so cramped together in that front section ?


It's a good shot, but you missed a marker line between 0 & 20....

I first thought there was a line there then changed my mind ... oh well back to the drawing board.  :-[
« Last Edit: January 08, 2016, 11:16:03 PM by georger »
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1775 on: January 08, 2016, 11:30:51 PM »
I'm figuring things out here. won't have a conclusion until tomorrow...have coords for Toms location on the map etc.
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georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1776 on: January 09, 2016, 03:56:44 PM »
Picking up on a comment you made Shutter, I don't think these grids are 20 feet wide either. I think they may be about 14-15 feet wide in some cases? Because if you assume the grids are 20ft wide then all other dimensions are off ... no matter whose photos (including Tom's) you try to use to make measurements on. I think my scale on the KIRO vid frames which assumes the grids are 20ft wide is totally wrong, as per Dorwin and Kaye.

Tom has the below on his website and if I'm reading it right he is using tire tracks as a "calibration" scale for distance? God only knows what that dimension is because Tom doesn't state it. So assuming one of the people in the photo is about six feet high I tried to extract other dimensions, as shown, and I have zero confidence in that!

In addition Tom shows a 20ft scale on his overlay. When applied to the grids the grids average only 11 feet wide!

Earlier we used the buildings on the Fazio property as correct dimensions. That may be the only thing we can use as a known-true dimension for evaluating USGS beach photos etc. Those buildings provide a true known scale which can be applied to everything else. Until that happens I am holding Dorwin and Kaye's claim that the grids were 20 feet wide in reserve, because for one thing no two grid sections are the same dimension!  ;)   

Hopfully this corrected post will now go?
« Last Edit: January 09, 2016, 04:25:50 PM by georger »
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1777 on: January 09, 2016, 04:21:46 PM »
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Picking up on a comment you made Shutter, I don't think these grids are 20 feet wide either. I think they may be about 14-15 feet wide in some cases? Because if you assume the grids are 20ft wide then all other dimensions are off ... no matter whose photos (including Tom's) you try to use to make measurements on. I think my scale on the KIRO vid frames which assumes the grids are 20ft wide is totally wrong, as per Dorwin and Kaye.

Tom has the below on his website and if I'm reading it right he is using tire tracks as a "calibration" scale for distance? God only knows what that dimension is because Tom doesn't state it. So assuming one of the people in the photo is about six feet high I tried to extract other dimensions, as shown, and I have zero confidence in that!

Earlier we used the buildings on the Fazio property as correct dimensions. That may be the only thing we can use as a known-true dimension for evaluating USGS beach photos etc. Those buildings provide a true known scale which can be applied to everything else. Until that happens I am holding Dorwin and Kaye's claim that the grids were 20 feet wide in reserve, because for one thing no two grid sections are the same dimension!  ;)   


They could of measured out a piece of string to scale with? amazing, these guys. if you take the last photo you made, and put it in paint. you can copy a section and use one as a template. you will see they don't line up. I guess it was good enough for what they were doing?
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1778 on: January 09, 2016, 04:26:19 PM »
Quote
I cant get my post above corrected and addedition ... give me a minute.

Suddenly, I have the opening segment of 60 minutes running thru my head...tick, tick,tick  ;D ;D ;D ;D
« Last Edit: January 09, 2016, 04:26:56 PM by Shutter »
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georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1779 on: January 09, 2016, 04:30:52 PM »
We need an independent scale that can be applied to everything, all USGS, Kaye, or whoever's photos and charts. That County records measurements of Faxio buildings is it. That can be applied to all beach photos whether USS, Kaye, or whoever. That 20ft scale I tried to apply to the KIRO video frames is dead wrong.

Faxio buildings dimensions from county records can be applied to beach features in all USGS photos, then those standardised beach features with known dimensions can be transferred to any and all photos ..

I think that is the only way unless you have a better idea?   
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1780 on: January 09, 2016, 04:33:52 PM »
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We need an independent scale that can be applied to everything, all USGS, Kaye, or whoever's photos and charts. That County records measurements of Faxio buildings is it. That can be applied to all beach photos whether USS, Kaye, or whoever. That 20ft scale I tried to apply to the KIRO video frames is dead wrong.

Faxio buildings dimensions from county records can be applied to beach features in all USGS photos, then those standardised beach features with known dimensions can be transferred to any and all photos ..

I think that is the only way unless you have a better idea?


Clark County has a good site with all the tools. different years, measurements, and coords...


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« Last Edit: January 09, 2016, 04:35:24 PM by Shutter »
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georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1781 on: January 09, 2016, 04:38:27 PM »
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Picking up on a comment you made Shutter, I don't think these grids are 20 feet wide either. I think they may be about 14-15 feet wide in some cases? Because if you assume the grids are 20ft wide then all other dimensions are off ... no matter whose photos (including Tom's) you try to use to make measurements on. I think my scale on the KIRO vid frames which assumes the grids are 20ft wide is totally wrong, as per Dorwin and Kaye.

Tom has the below on his website and if I'm reading it right he is using tire tracks as a "calibration" scale for distance? God only knows what that dimension is because Tom doesn't state it. So assuming one of the people in the photo is about six feet high I tried to extract other dimensions, as shown, and I have zero confidence in that!

Earlier we used the buildings on the Fazio property as correct dimensions. That may be the only thing we can use as a known-true dimension for evaluating USGS beach photos etc. Those buildings provide a true known scale which can be applied to everything else. Until that happens I am holding Dorwin and Kaye's claim that the grids were 20 feet wide in reserve, because for one thing no two grid sections are the same dimension!  ;)   


They could of measured out a piece of string to scale with? amazing, these guys. if you take the last photo you made, and put it in paint. you can copy a section and use one as a template. you will see they don't line up. I guess it was good enough for what they were doing?

Let me pick up on that point - what were they doing? What were their goals. ???  I think somebody in charge had something in mind ??? We have rather intense explorati0n in the section of the Ingram find. We have a whole large area to the south skipped. Then we suddenly have a whole large area with intense exploration (raked and or dug up the whole damned thing!). Why? Why leave a middle section untouched? Maybe because they found something sections south of the Ingram find and decided maybe Cooper himself was there?

Dorwin has steadfastly said "We were looking for Cooper" - period. Thy might have cared less about finding the money. It may have been anything related to Cooper himself or his chute etc they were really after?

Dorwin has insisted that at the time dna meant nothing - "oh if we had had that then", he says. And he makes similar comments ... which make me wonder if it was Cooper himself they thought they might be on to?

Yes. The Egyptians built pyramids with string/rope measuring tools ... with greater accuracy than the Tena Bar excavation!  :)  Something accounts for what we are seeing. And not seeing.   
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georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1782 on: January 09, 2016, 04:39:20 PM »
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We need an independent scale that can be applied to everything, all USGS, Kaye, or whoever's photos and charts. That County records measurements of Faxio buildings is it. That can be applied to all beach photos whether USS, Kaye, or whoever. That 20ft scale I tried to apply to the KIRO video frames is dead wrong.

Faxio buildings dimensions from county records can be applied to beach features in all USGS photos, then those standardised beach features with known dimensions can be transferred to any and all photos ..

I think that is the only way unless you have a better idea?


Clark County has a good site with all the tools. different years, measurements, and coords...


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Yes you alrerady gave one building dimension down to the millimetr on the Faxio property. I will dig it out and apply it - I should have ages ago.

As cooperative as Dorwin has been I think there is a large gap in what he has told, or remembers?, both Bruce and me. He may not want to get into it, just as Rataczak is unwilling to get into specifics. Based on the comments and sentiments Dorwin has expressed to me over several years, I get the distinct impression 'they' thought they might be on to Cooper himself on the premise the money bag and Cooper were inseparable ... where one goes the other must be close by even in death ... and "that" is the reason they devoted so much manpower and intensity to the Tena Bar excavation. It was not the money per se. 
« Last Edit: January 09, 2016, 04:47:05 PM by georger »
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1783 on: January 09, 2016, 04:45:35 PM »
If they were looking for Cooper, that speaks volumes for things that they are not speaking about. why wouldn't they be like old Bobby Blevs, and say, Cooper's not going to be over here? why did they disregard the flight path knowledge and think Cooper was that far west? it's impossible flight path wise?

Just got home a little while ago....gotta hit the store...be back in about a half hour.......
« Last Edit: January 09, 2016, 04:46:04 PM by Shutter »
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georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1784 on: January 09, 2016, 04:52:07 PM »
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If they were looking for Cooper, that speaks volumes for things that they are not speaking about. why wouldn't they be like old Bobby Blevs, and say, Cooper's not going to be over here? why did they disregard the flight path knowledge and think Cooper was that far west? it's impossible flight path wise?

Just got home a little while ago....gotta hit the store...be back in about a half hour.......

I agree 100%. They would not have devoted the manpower to this excavation they did unless something a lot more important than mere money fragments was involved. Dorwin has referenced "dna" a hundred times in our conversations. He says he even wished the money had been analysed for: "dna" !  They were hoping something of Cooper himself was also present on Tena Bar. The Ingram find was just an introduction to what they were really after. That is the core of Dorwin's communications with me said over and over and over by Dorwin, in one form or another.. 

We also know, by the way, the Ingram discovery spurred a revisitation of the whole flight path-drop issue. They talked to all the principals again spurred on by the Ingram find. The Washougal theory was born, literally. 
« Last Edit: January 09, 2016, 04:57:10 PM by georger »
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