Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find  (Read 1433378 times)

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1740 on: January 07, 2016, 11:34:59 PM »
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Quote
Dredging did not stop until 9-18-74

I noticed in the larger 9-6 photo that the dredge seems to have moved north away from Tina Bar depositing on the west bank?

Yes. That is covered in the USGS report. Ive posted about this before. 

 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1741 on: January 08, 2016, 12:20:29 AM »
New photo composite of Tena Bar Excavation:

See attached. These are frames from the KIRO video showing the excavation in progress at Tena Bar. Date uncertain but this had to be after the excavation was in progress. The value of this composite is it now allows anyone with so-called evidence about the excavation to compare their 'evidence' to an actual photo of the whole excavation as it was occurring. For example, we can now see that Dorwin's claim about digging at 60 yards (120ft) from the Ingram find, was actually occurring. Likewise digging was occurring at and near the Ingram find. I hope this graphic helps. (A stitched single wide-field view of the excavation may follow).   

Please note, the frames are scaled in feet. 0 feet starts where Dorwin told me they laid their first grid line, left of the Ingram find. This puts the Ingram find just inside the 20-40ft grid section. 
« Last Edit: January 08, 2016, 12:27:58 AM by georger »
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1742 on: January 08, 2016, 02:35:44 AM »
First discrepancy noted* Shutter had previously posted the attached and places the money find at a different location than I have assigned it in my composite. Which is correct?
« Last Edit: January 08, 2016, 02:36:24 AM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1743 on: January 08, 2016, 05:51:05 AM »
I'm not sure what the angled green line is in that photo. the money find is close to where you have positioned it. the only thing that differs would be the photo with Brian showing him scooping in the snow. you can see the tree in the background.

Where the green letters stating "money" is in the photo is the position I put going from Brian's photo. Tom also claims the money was found further up and Brian was in the wrong location. Tom stated it was closer to the treeline where you are also marking.

I now show in the photo where Brian would of been in the photo....
« Last Edit: January 08, 2016, 05:52:03 AM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1744 on: January 08, 2016, 06:29:43 AM »
Looking at the photo's it appears the grids are not accurately marked, or equal in distance. in the still photo below you can easily tell it's not 20 feet. the two guys could touch hands. looks about like 10 feet. I doubt this means anything though...
« Last Edit: January 08, 2016, 06:30:29 AM by Shutter »
 

Offline nmiwrecks

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1745 on: January 08, 2016, 07:03:39 AM »
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I don't want to make a federal case out of this point, but if the fragment field started at the Ingram find and then spread out to the south (upstream) then that is very unusual.  It would require the current that spread out the fragments to be moving upstream against the river flow.

Does NMI or anyone with experience with sub-surface river currents know if there can be substantial currents below the surface that are opposite to the main river current?

I am aware that some relatively minor upstream currents can frequently be observed along the usual shoreline.  But to spread out the fragments would require something much stronger and below the surface.
I just know the basics about rivers, currents, eddies, etc.  I don't have any experience with anything as large as the Columbia.  It's as much a moving lake, as it is a river.

Ice can do a number of unusual things.  It can drastically change the currents and move large (and small) objects around.  Does the Columbia every have large amounts of ice moving through her?
"If you always do what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you’ve always got." - Henry Ford
 

Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1746 on: January 08, 2016, 11:04:57 AM »
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First discrepancy noted* Shutter had previously posted the attached and places the money find at a different location than I have assigned it in my composite. Which is correct?

The approximate center of the circles drawn in pencil is the location where Tom Kaye's GPS coordinates puts the money find location.  Brian didn't remember the exact location when he was with Tom at Tina Bar.  So Tom used photographs taken of the FBI agents digging, and which show prominent features on the west side of the river, to determine the GPS coordinates he gives.

When Meyer Louie and I visited Tina Bar, we talked to people who had visited Tina Bar just about ever day for the last 50 years.  None of them gave any indication whatsoever that Tom's location was not correct.  It should be understood that, due to the severe shoreline erosion, the actual location is now several feet out in the river and also several feet above the typical water level.

Tom's location is the most accurate that is now available.  In any event, the money was found between the water and the containment pond.

 
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1747 on: January 08, 2016, 11:09:28 AM »
The pencil drawings were done by the FBI. Tom has the location marked in the same photo...

Fig. 3 1974 dredging image from FBI archive overlaid on Googe Earth. The penciled circle is the inacurate location of the money find from 1980. The pronounced hump in the beach is the result of the dredging pipe dumping sand on the beach. The red line represents the distance sand was moved north on the beach from the dredging pipe. The yellow pin marks the recoverd position of the money find
« Last Edit: January 08, 2016, 11:12:50 AM by Shutter »
 

Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1748 on: January 08, 2016, 11:23:55 AM »
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The pencil drawings were done by the FBI. Tom has the location marked in the same photo...

Fig. 3 1974 dredging image from FBI archive overlaid on Googe Earth. The penciled circle is the inacurate location of the money find from 1980. The pronounced hump in the beach is the result of the dredging pipe dumping sand on the beach. The red line represents the distance sand was moved north on the beach from the dredging pipe. The yellow pin marks the recoverd position of the money find

Nevertheless, the GPS coordinates Tom gives leads to the approximate center of the circles and the local fishermen gave ever indication of agreeing with those GPS coordinates.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1749 on: January 08, 2016, 11:39:26 AM »
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The pencil drawings were done by the FBI. Tom has the location marked in the same photo...

Fig. 3 1974 dredging image from FBI archive overlaid on Googe Earth. The penciled circle is the inacurate location of the money find from 1980. The pronounced hump in the beach is the result of the dredging pipe dumping sand on the beach. The red line represents the distance sand was moved north on the beach from the dredging pipe. The yellow pin marks the recoverd position of the money find

Nevertheless, the GPS coordinates Tom gives leads to the approximate center of the circles and the local fishermen gave ever indication of agreeing with those GPS coordinates.


That would be inaccurate to the photo. the pin is very close to what Georger has described...
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1750 on: January 08, 2016, 11:48:12 AM »
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Looking at the photo's it appears the grids are not accurately marked, or equal in distance. in the still photo below you can easily tell it's not 20 feet. the two guys could touch hands. looks about like 10 feet. I doubt this means anything though...

I agree. Dorwin said the distance between some grid lines was - approximate.  :) He said 'we used a tape but we weren't surveyors'. 

Can you mark on any of the vid photos where this photo of yours is ?

I dont like having '0' a whole section away from the Ingram find. Makes no sense to me, so Im going back and re-scale everything so 'o' starts and the grid line closest to, and left of the Ingram find location.

Have you got a guess for what day this video would have been?     
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1751 on: January 08, 2016, 11:53:58 AM »
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I don't want to make a federal case out of this point, but if the fragment field started at the Ingram find and then spread out to the south (upstream) then that is very unusual.  It would require the current that spread out the fragments to be moving upstream against the river flow.

Does NMI or anyone with experience with sub-surface river currents know if there can be substantial currents below the surface that are opposite to the main river current?

I am aware that some relatively minor upstream currents can frequently be observed along the usual shoreline.  But to spread out the fragments would require something much stronger and below the surface.
I just know the basics about rivers, currents, eddies, etc.  I don't have any experience with anything as large as the Columbia.  It's as much a moving lake, as it is a river.

Ice can do a number of unusual things.  It can drastically change the currents and move large (and small) objects around.  Does the Columbia every have large amounts of ice moving through her?

We checked the wx records for the period 71-80. The short answer is no ice of any significance. Amazon seemed to confirm this also from her recollection living in the area.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1752 on: January 08, 2016, 11:54:13 AM »
It appears you can see Palmer's ditch, so I would guess again it was close to the end of the search. perhaps the last day?  :-\
 

georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1753 on: January 08, 2016, 12:02:24 PM »
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First discrepancy noted* Shutter had previously posted the attached and places the money find at a different location than I have assigned it in my composite. Which is correct?

The approximate center of the circles drawn in pencil is the location where Tom Kaye's GPS coordinates puts the money find location.  Brian didn't remember the exact location when he was with Tom at Tina Bar.  So Tom used photographs taken of the FBI agents digging, and which show prominent features on the west side of the river, to determine the GPS coordinates he gives.

When Meyer Louie and I visited Tina Bar, we talked to people who had visited Tina Bar just about ever day for the last 50 years.  None of them gave any indication whatsoever that Tom's location was not correct.  It should be understood that, due to the severe shoreline erosion, the actual location is now several feet out in the river and also several feet above the typical water level.

Tom's location is the most accurate that is now available.  In any event, the money was found between the water and the containment pond.

 

Here is Tom's photo, made by Tom, approved by Tom ...from his website.

If Tom's coordinates place the money find in the circle then what is his yellow pin identifying the money find at that location all about?  :-\

Can we please decide where this money find was vs where it was NOT - according to somebody!?

Where was the Ingram money find?
At Tom's coordinates! ???
Or at Tom's yellow pin location! ???
Will the actual real honest-to-God authentic genuine final final final  ... location please stand up?

 :o
 

« Last Edit: January 08, 2016, 12:08:57 PM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #1754 on: January 08, 2016, 12:05:48 PM »
It was impossible to be inside the circle.

1) to close to the spoil.
2) Most important...it's before the diagonal line clearly seen in other photo's.
3) It's just plain and simply to far south...