Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find (Read 1344916 times)

Shutter · « **Reply #1710 on:** January 06, 2016, 01:44:47 PM »

I'm guessing this is how they treated all the small pieces found?

The plastic container looks like one you would put business cards in?

georger · « **Reply #1711 on:** January 06, 2016, 02:27:32 PM »

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I'm guessing this is how they treated all the small pieces found?

The plastic container looks like one you would put business cards in?

Dorwin says "check envelopes". They were plastic evidence envelopes vs paper but the same size as a common paper "check" envelope people used to send checks in through the mail -

have tried to post this five times without success will try one more time!

georger · « **Reply #1712 on:** January 06, 2016, 02:30:56 PM »

Here is another press dig photo showing digging in different areas than the last photo! I wonder what date this represents?

Robert99 · « **Reply #1713 on:** January 06, 2016, 02:38:27 PM »

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Shutter: when you look at the excavation photos and the grid, which way are they going relative to the Ingram site? North or south?

I'm not sure I follow what you are saying. the photo is looking south. grid lines are going east & west.

Other than Dorwin, who else can confirm the stories about thousands of pieces/frags of the bills being found. IMO it would be rather easy to conclude the money did in fact go through the dredge. on the other hand, we have claims that the sand wasn't spread that far north, but, we have Palmer identifying the dredge layer? then we have Tom stating the clay layer Palmer seen actually runs the whole length of the beach?

Could the small pieces survive 6 years in the elements?
If the money was close to the area (protected) how could all of the pieces exist?
If the money was planted I doubt much would be found outside of the actual money found?

In the photo I don't see 120 feet of surface dug up, or filtered. the most I see is 3 sections in width. perhaps running east & west might be close in one area.

Ok, so the photo is looking south. Dorwin said the starting point for their grid was near the Ingram site and Tom's photo attached seems to confirm that, and the grid pattern is running south as per Dorwin.. So that fits with your interpretation also.

I agree, I dont even see them digging within the 4-6ft swath that Dorwin mentioned. In some press photos I see them digging specific locations, and in Tom's press photo overlay the area of intensive raking and digging is the whole sections between 100 - 120 feet south of the Ingram find. I wonder what date Tom's photo is from? But, Tom's photo definitely confirms Dorwin saying they dug fragments at "60 yards" because that is where they are digging! That's the first independent confirmation of Dorwin's "60 yards" we have?

If the fragments were south (upstream) of the Ingram find location, that would suggest that the three bundles found within inches of each other by the Ingrams came out of something (the money bag?) at the point where they were found.

And since the money find location was significantly higher than the river elevation on the night of the jump, it seems likely that the money was moving underwater at the time it was deposited at Tina Bar and probably came down the channel between Caterpillar Island and the east bank of the Columbia.

Shutter · « **Reply #1714 on:** January 06, 2016, 02:42:24 PM »

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And since the money find location was significantly higher than the river elevation on the night of the jump, it seems likely that the money was moving underwater at the time it was deposited at Tina Bar and probably came down the channel between Caterpillar Island and the east bank of the Columbia.

How did it get off the bottom of the river?

Shutter · « **Reply #1715 on:** January 06, 2016, 03:00:37 PM »

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Kaye said it's possible Cooper actually landed in the Columbia River, although the FBI dredged the river off Tena Bar after the money was found in 1980. There also had been speculation that Cooper may have actually buried the money on Tena Bar.

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The informal team of detectives includes a fossil hunter who works with the Burke Museum of Natural History in Seattle, a well-known scientific illustrator, an Egyptologist who speaks 12 languages, a metallurgist, and an Arkansas man who discovered $5,800 of the loot in $20 bills while throwing a Frisbee on the banks of the Columbia River when he was 8 years old

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georger · « **Reply #1716 on:** January 06, 2016, 03:12:38 PM »

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Kaye said it's possible Cooper actually landed in the Columbia River, although the FBI dredged the river off Tena Bar after the money was found in 1980. There also had been speculation that Cooper may have actually buried the money on Tena Bar.

Quote
The informal team of detectives includes a fossil hunter who works with the Burke Museum of Natural History in Seattle, a well-known scientific illustrator, an Egyptologist who speaks 12 languages, a metallurgist, and an Arkansas man who discovered $5,800 of the loot in $20 bills while throwing a Frisbee on the banks of the Columbia River when he was 8 years old

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No mention of the yellow inflatable raft packed with all parachutes given to Cooper? I feel cheated!

Shutter · « **Reply #1717 on:** January 06, 2016, 03:15:05 PM »

Did the FBI dredge the river after the money find?

georger · « **Reply #1718 on:** January 06, 2016, 03:31:04 PM »

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And since the money find location was significantly higher than the river elevation on the night of the jump, it seems likely that the money was moving underwater at the time it was deposited at Tina Bar and probably came down the channel between Caterpillar Island and the east bank of the Columbia.

How did it get off the bottom of the river?

I have always wondered if the money was already on the bar when the dredging material was piled on top of it then spread? If Tom is right and Palmer got his strata wrong, then perhaps by 1980 most of the 1974 dredge spoils had already eroded away and was gone. This then would expose the layer underneath the dredging spoils layer thus revealing the money that had washed in before August of 1974. That would account for Palmer's 'clay layer' Tom says was not dredging spoil but an older-deeper natural clay layer Tom showed in his photo of the strata at Tina Bar. Also the straightest route on to Tina Bar is hugging Caterpillar Island, as R99 says. That whole area on the Columbia side of Caterpillar Isle looks to me like a low pressure zone that things could wash into, before passing straight onto Tina Bar. There were high water events before 1974 that could have brought a bag of money to Tina Bar. At least I think there were.

Palmer was relying on his experience. He also was in a hurry. It seems like a bizarre mistake for a professional geologist to make but if Tom is right there is a good chance the money was never in the dredging layer and by 1980 they are working finding pieces just above Tom's natural clay layer and the dredging silt layer had mostly eroded away? A few lab tests at the time would have settled the matter. Palmer relied on his experience instead ...

georger · « **Reply #1719 on:** January 06, 2016, 03:39:16 PM »

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Did the FBI dredge the river after the money find?

Not that I am aware of. Why would they? I am actually surprised they didn't explore Vancouver Lake ... like FlyJack suggests might have been a good idea. Did the FBI even explore the Shillapoo? Did they talk to locals and hobos?

The FBI was relying on their flight path and jump zone given by "smart guys". Then they were relying on "smart guys" Palmer etc. The FBI was looking/waiting on any report of a body being found ,,, checking hospitals etc. I think the FBI thought the Ingram money 'could not have any direct connection' with the flight path or where Cooper bailed and beyond that it was like looking for a needle in a haystack. The FBI doesn't look for needles in haystacks or indirect causal connections unless there is very good reason to do so. The FBI was waiting for forensic work to point to a solid connection ... and then would search.

Every solid connection or lead the FBI felt might produce fruit, they jumped on and explored. The Tacoma lead, the Eugene lead brought up by R2 etal, .. if they had had any reason to believe that Cooper might have angered into Vancouver Lake or the Shillapoo they would have been all over that with the same manpower they used at Ariel!

Why didn't they launch a massive search of the Washougal in 1980!

Because there was nothing but rumor and speculation to go on.

Bruce A. Smith · « **Reply #1720 on:** January 06, 2016, 03:48:09 PM »

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Question for Bruce Smith when he is back:

Q: How did Dorwin think the Ingram money had come to Tena Bar, based on his firsthand observations ?

When I spoke with Dorwin a few weeks ago, he re-iterated that the money was most likely deposited on T-Bar by the dredge.

Shutter · « **Reply #1721 on:** January 06, 2016, 03:49:58 PM »

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Did the FBI dredge the river after the money find?

Not that I am aware of. Why would they? I am actually surprised they didn't explore Vancouver Lake ... like FlyJack suggests might have been a good idea. Did the FBI even explore the Shillapoo? Did they talk to locals and hobos?

The FBI was relying on their flight path and jump zone given by "smart guys". Then they were relying on "smart guys" Palmer etc. The FBI was looking/waiting on any report of a body being found ,,, checking hospitals etc. I think the FBI thought the Ingram money 'could not have any direct connection' with the flight path or where Cooper bailed and beyond that it was like looking for a needle in a haystack. The FBI doesn't look for needles in haystacks or indirect causal connections unless there is very good reason to do so. The FBI was waiting for forensic work to point to a solid connection ... and then would search.

Every solid connection or lead the FBI felt might produce fruit, they jumped on and explored. The Tacoma lead, the Eugene lead brought up by R2 etal, .. if they had had any reason to believe that Cooper might have angered into Vancouver Lake or the Shillapoo they would have been all over that with the same manpower they used at Ariel!

Why didn't they launch a massive search of the Washougal in 1980! Because there was nothing but rumor and speculation to go on.

The dredging I read about for Vancouver lake showed they used the material for the island out there....

Shutter · « **Reply #1722 on:** January 06, 2016, 03:54:30 PM »

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When I spoke with Dorwin a few weeks ago, he re-iterated that the money was most likely deposited on T-Bar by the dredge.

Lots of factors involved...

1) the timing of the jump is wrong.
2) The flight path could be wrong.
3) Cooper could of landed nearby..

If it's true that thousands of pieces were seen, or found on the beach. I would guess the dredge found the entire bag, and only a small amount survived going thru the pump. (speculation)

I've noticed that I have to refresh the page in order to see my new post sometimes...I'll look into the problem.

Robert99 · « **Reply #1723 on:** January 06, 2016, 04:13:14 PM »

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And since the money find location was significantly higher than the river elevation on the night of the jump, it seems likely that the money was moving underwater at the time it was deposited at Tina Bar and probably came down the channel between Caterpillar Island and the east bank of the Columbia.

How did it get off the bottom of the river?

You are assuming that the money was on the bottom of the river at some time. I have posted on this point before, but in my humble opinion Cooper impacted on dry land, quite possibly the eastern side of Caterpillar Island, and at an elevation somewhat above the money find elevation.

Within a few weeks, Cooper, along with the parachutes and money bag, would not have a "flotation" capability. So when the river water elevation eventually reached Cooper's impact point during flooding, off went at least the money bag and probably some of Cooper as well. It was then working its way both downstream and to a lower elevation above sea level when it dropped the money off at Tina Bar. And whatever the three bundles of bills were in when they separated from their carrier, kept right on going to the Pacific.

After the money find, the next dredging of the shipping channel was to clear the ash from the Mt. St. Helens explosion which happened about three months after the money find.

Bruce A. Smith · « **Reply #1724 on:** January 06, 2016, 04:26:21 PM »

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I think Bruce meant to say "20 feet"

Wasn't the lines (grid) set in the sand at 20 feet?

Dorwin told me 20 yards. Perhaps he meant to say 20 feet. However, he mentioned "yards" on several occasions, so it seemed pretty clear to me, although Georger's math shows that the "20 yards" is not possible if the money find was 40 feet from the waterline.

Happy New Year, everyone.

Yeesh - I go see mommy for two weeks and when I come back there is a plume field at T-Bar! Good work, team. BTW, I just got Dorwin's book by his grandson. Very substantive. Haven't found the T-Bar stuff, though. No index.

Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find (Read 1344916 times)

Shutter

Re: Tina Bar Money Find

georger

Re: Tina Bar Money Find

georger

Re: Tina Bar Money Find

Robert99

Re: Tina Bar Money Find

Shutter

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Shutter

Re: Tina Bar Money Find

georger

Re: Tina Bar Money Find

Shutter

Re: Tina Bar Money Find

georger

Re: Tina Bar Money Find

georger

Re: Tina Bar Money Find

Bruce A. Smith

Re: Tina Bar Money Find

Shutter

Re: Tina Bar Money Find

Shutter

Re: Tina Bar Money Find

Robert99

Re: Tina Bar Money Find

Bruce A. Smith

Re: Tina Bar Money Find